An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it self, why it may not be said long ago to have lost the body of the Church, though it keep still the visard, the name, and the vestments of the Church. What if the Romish Church condemned Luther? shall we say therefore Luther is an heretic, and that it is the Catholic Church? The Church of Jerusalem condemned Christ, and him and his they would have denied to be the true Church, if by any colour they could, that they might free themselves out of those straights, they were brought into. But happily they will say, there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church.1 But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasy, that should be before Christs coming ⟨p. 82⟩to judgement,i which Apostasy is from religion and the Church, as the most ancient Fathers do understand it: and Christ prophesied evidently of the small number of his.3 When the Son of man shall come shall he find kfaith on the earth? If hardly any faith shall remain on the earth, and the Church cannot be said to be a Church, but improperly without faith, it followeth necessarily that when Christ cometh, their number shall be very small, who may truly be called the Church. You have now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church unto us, unless you think your self better able to portray it, then the holy Ghost himself could do, who hath set out the Church in far better colours and manner, then I find yours to be, in which there is nothing left but painted walls. But, say you, there are Epistles of Christ written to the seven Churches which were in Asia; there are also divers Epistles which were written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. John, and by others unto sundry Churches; in the Acts of the Apostles we find mention made of many Churches begun and enlarged. What then, Campian, what think you may be inferred hereupon? These were not known to God only, but also to all Christians: who ever denied that? These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Colossians, to which Paul writ, were particular visible Churches. Did we ever seem to make question whether a Church might be visible or no? we verily call all those visible and apparent Churches, which profess the pure word of God and hold those rights
I see not what the Church of Rome can challenge to it selfe, why it may not be said long agot to haue lost the body of the Church, though it keepe still the visard, the name, and the vestments of the Church. What if the Romish Church condemned Luther? shall we say therefore Luther is an heretike, and that it is the Catholike Church? The Church of Ierusalem condemned Christ, and him and his they would haue denied to be the true Church, if by any colour they could, that they might free themselues out of those straights, they were brought into. But happily they will say, there is no such thing to be found in Christs new Church.1 But S. Paul prophesieth of an Apostasie, that should be before Christs comming ⟨p. 82⟩to iudgement,i which Apostafie is from religion and the Church, as the most auncien• Fathers do vnderstand it: and Christ prophesied euidently of the small number of his.3 When the Soune of man shall come shall he find kfaith on the earth? If hardly any faith shal remaine on the earth, and the Church cannot be said to be a Church, but improperly without faith, it followeth necessarily that when Christ commeth, their number shall be very small, who may truly be called the Church. You haue now those Scriptures which do thus paint out the Church vnto vs, vnlesse you thinke your selfe better able to puttray it, then the holy Ghost himselfe could do, who hath set out the Church in farre better colours and manner, then I find yours to be, in which there is nothing left but painted walles. But, say you, there are Epistles of Christ written to the seauen Churches which were in Asia; there are also diuers Epistles which were written by S. Peter, S. Paul, S. Iohn, and by others vnto sundrie Churches; in the Acts of the Apostles wee find mention made of manie Churches begun and enlarged. What then, Campian, what think you may be inferred hereupon? These were not knowne to God only, but also to all Christians: who euer denied that? These same Churches of Asia to whom Christ sent Epistles and the Churches of the Corinthians, Philippians, Thessalonians, Colossians, to which Paul writ, were particular visible Churches. Did we euer seeme to make question whether a Church might be visible or no? we verily call all those visible and apparant Churches, which professe the pure word of God and hold those rights ⟨p. 83⟩and Sacraments which are commaunded by Christ.
iDVR. The Fathers have understood the place of Antichrist, or of a defection from the Roman Empire. WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyril of Jerusalem (a man you much esteem) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasy from the true faith, so doth Chrysostom, Oecumenius, so many others. Yea your Divines of Rhemes have so expounded it.DVR. The Fathers haue vnderstood the place of Antichrist, or of a defection from the Romane Empire. WHIT. pag. 268. Nay Cyrill of Hierusalem (a man you much esteeme) Catech. 11. doth interpret it of an Apostasie from the true faith, so doth Chrysostome, Oecumenius, so many others. Yea your Diuines of Rhemes haue so expounded it.
kDVR. Augustine de vultat. Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith, WE understand this speech, either for the perfection of faith, or for the multitude of the wicked, or for the small number of the good. So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano•. WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistook the place, must we rest in their exposition? we have Nazianzene cont. Arran. Theophyla. in 28. Luc. Caietan upon this place against them: nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked, and the small number of the good, doth he not defend our opinion, that the number of the wicked shall be great, but of the godly small?DVR. Augustine de vultat. Ecclesiae cap. 13. saith, VVE vnderstand this speech, either for the perfection of faith, or for the multitude of the wicked, or for the small number of the good. So doth Hierome contr. Luciferano•. WHIT. pag. 270. What if these Fathers mistooke the place, must we rest in their exposition? we haue Nazianzene cont. Arran. Theophyla. in 28. Luc. Caietan vpon this place against them: nay further when Augustine writeth that there is signified the multitude of the wicked, and the small number of the good, doth he not defend our opinion, that the number of the wicked shall be great, but of the godly small?
And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England, Scotland, Germany, France, and other parts of Christendom, though it grieve you Jesuits they should be so visible and apparent. But what kind of reasoning is this?l Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible: therefore the Catholic Church is ever visible. Have you learned such Logic as this at Rome in your famous schools of Jesuits? or do you, Campian, think that these manner of Allegations should go for proofs in the ears of our University men? but where are those Churches now, which were then so flourishing? Show me the Church of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Corinthians, and the rest. Now they are no where to be seen, and are no longer Churches. And that which we have seen already befall those Churches, teach us, I pray you, how it may not also betide the Church of Rome? And though Rome become a heap, yet the Church shall be safe: neither shall the downfall of any city or Empire ever be able to abolish it. And at this day there are many flourishing Churches, which are equal to your falsely called Catholic Church, for the number, & undoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold.
And so at this day by the blessing of God there are many visible Churches in England, Scotland, Germanie, Fraunce, and other parts of Christendome, though it greeue you Iesuits they should be so visible and apparant. But what kind of reasoning is this?l Those Churches to whom Christ and his Apostles writ were visible: therefore the Catholike Church is euer visible. Haue you learned such Logicke as this at Rome in your famous schoolts of Iesuits? or doe you, Campian, thinke that these manner of Allegations should goe for proofes in the eares of our Vniuersity men? but where are those Churches now, which were then so flourishing? Shew me the Church of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Corinthes, and the rest. Now they are no where to be seene, and are no lōger Churches. And that which we haue seen already befal those Churches, teach vs, I pray you, how it may not also betide the Church of Rome? And though Rome become a heap, yet the Church shall be safe: neither shal the downfall of any citie or Empire euer be able to abolish it. And at this day there are many flourishing Churches, which are equall to your falsly called Catholike Church, for the number, & vndoubtedly are far better for the truth they hold.
lDVR. All particular Churches on which the Catholic Church consisteth, as on parts, are visible: therefore the Catholic Church it self is visible. WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholic, are not visible: because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only, but of Churches of the times past, and of those which shall be in the time to come. But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only, yet it followeth not that it must be visible: nay so long […] particulars are visible, it cannot, for when all the parts are grown into o••, then is the whole visible, but not each several part; so when the several parts may be seen, the whole cannot be seen, because the parts are no••ow become one. So the contrary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible, the whole cannot be seen.DVR. All particular Churches on which the Catholike Church consisteth, as on parts, are visible: therefore the Catholike Church it selfe is visible. WHIT. pag. 272. All particular Churches which make the Catholike, are not visible: because it consisteth not of the Churches of this time only, but of Churches of the times past, and of those which shall be in the time to come. But say it were compact and made of the Churches of this time only, yet it followeth not that it must be visible: nay so long 〈…〉 particulars are visible, it cannot, for when all the parts are growen into o••, then is the whole visible, but not each seuerall part; so when the seuerall parts may be seene, the whole cānot be seen, because the parts are no••ow become one. So the cōtrary to your collection will follow that because the parts are visible, the whole cannot be seene.
But you say, That for 1500. years we could not spy out one town, one village, one house seasoned with our doctrine. Nay, Campian, that is very false,m for in the ⟨p. 84⟩Apostles time, all Churches, all cities, all towns, every family embraced the same faith and religion which we now profess. After that by little and little, the purity of doctrinen began to be corrupted, and divers superstitions spread far and near; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could, resist,3 until that mystery of iniquity, which took rooting in the very Apostles time, spread it selfo by all the parts of the Church, and at length possessed it wholly. Yet Antichrist that man of sin, could never prevail so far, but a great multitude of the Saints remained; and those, whose names were written in the book of life, did utterly abhor all those filthy and wicked ⟨p. 85⟩superstitions of Antichrist. For in the Church of Rome it self even in the worth times of it, yet many were ever found, who worshipped the God of their Fathers, and kept themselves unpolluted with that horrible Idolatry. And this can histories of all times witness, which I could now recite if it were needful, and reckon up to you, many houses, villages, towns, cities, and countries, where Christ had many and populous Churches. Thep Greek Church could never yet be brought to join it self to your Church, and it is […] opposite to you, as ever our Church was. And yet you so forge these things, as if the Pope of Rome long ago had had the whole world under his subjection. Until that unhappy Monk, as you say, by his incest•••• marriage had deflowered a Nun, dedicated to God by […] sole•••• […] or until that quarrelling Sw••• had conspired against his country, or that infamous ••••gate had undertaken an usurped authority in Ge••••. So, Campian, go on to rail and revile every good man, pour out the gall of your bitterness, seeing you have undertaken to spend all your venomous darts upon them. Luther's name is written in the book of life; and his memory shall ever be sacred among all good men, and your reproaches shall not be able to pierce or wound him. It is a true saying, that a false reproach pierceth not the skin: you call him Monk, & your self is but a Friar; now Monks were ever accounted more honest then Friars. But he ⟨p. 86⟩by incestuous marriage de••oured […] Nom•••, dedicated to God by solemn vow.q
But you say, That for 1500. yeares we could not spie out one towne, one village, one house seasoned with our doctrine. Nay, Campian, that is very false,m for in the ⟨p. 84⟩Apostles time, all Churches, all cities, all townes, euery family embraced the same faith and religion which we now professe. After that by little and little, the purity of doctrinen began to be corrupted, and diuers superstitions spread far and neare; though the holy Fathers did as much as they could, resist,3 vntill that mystery of iniquitie, which tooke rooting in the very Apostles time, spread it selfeo by all the parts of the Church, and at length possessed it wholy. Yet Antichrist that man of sinne, could neuer preuaile so farre, but a great multitude of the Saints remained; and those, whose names were written in the booke of life, did vtterly abhorre all those filthie and wicked ⟨p. 85⟩superstitions of Antichrist. For in the Church of Rome it selfe euen in the worth times of it, yet many were euer found, who worshipped the God of their Fathers, and kept themselues vnpolluted with that horrible Idolatrie. And this can histories of all times witnesse, which I could now recite if it were needful, and reckon vp to you, many houses, villages, townes, cities, and countries, where Christ had many and populous Churches. Thep Greeke Church could neuer yet be brought to ioyne it self to your Church, and it is 〈…〉 opposite to you, as euer our Church was. And yet you so forge these things, as if the Pope of Rome long agoe had had the whole world vnder his subiection. Vntill that vnhappy Monke, as you say, by his incest•••• marriage had defloured a Nunne, dedicated to God by 〈…〉 sole••••〈…〉 or vntill that quarrelling Sw••• had c••spired against his country, or that infamous gate had vndertaken an vsurped authority in Ge. So, Campian, go on to raile and reuile euery good man, powre out the gall of your bitternes, seeing you haue vndertaken to spend all your venemous darts vpon them. Luthers name is written in the book of life; and his memory shal euer be sacred among all good men, and your reproaches shall not be able to pearce or wound him. It is a true saying, that a false repreach pierceth not the skinne: you call him Monke, & your selfe is but a Frier; now Monkes were euer accounted more honest then Friers. But he
mDVR. The Arians, M••cedonians, and all other ancient heretics may by the same probability say as much. WHIT. pag 272. It the Arians or any other heretic can prove the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures, they may answer the same which we do, for every Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine, may profess that all cities, village•, […] which were religious, were seasoned with their doctrine.DVR. The Arrians, M••cedonians, and all other auncient heretikes may by the same probability say as much. WHIT. pag 272. It the Arrians or any other heretike can proue the doctrine of their Churches out of the holy Scriptures, they may answere the same which we doe, for euery Church which holdeth the Apostles doctrine, may professe that all cities, village•, 〈…〉 which were religous, were seasoned with their doctrine.
nDVR. Tell me then from whom, and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church. WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sun is so very swift, that we may see it hath moved, though we cannot discern the moving of it: so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceive by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolical; but the time when, and the manner how they were brought in, is not much to our purpose. And it were too long to tell all, yet hear some, Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equal to other Bishops th•ugh much was given to him for the excellency of that Church. After the Christian world was divided into four Provinces, when he became the chief of the Patriarchs, after this he began to challenge authority over other Churches, and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice: but he was repressed by the African Councell. Then Gregory the great, greatly inveighed against John of Constantinople, because he sought the name of universal Bishop, and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist. Lastly, Boniface the eight with a great sum obtained that honour of Phocas the Parricide. And since that he grew to that height, that he made not only Churches and Kings, but the Christian Emperor himself to kiss his feet. But see another example. Time was when there were no images in Churches: As that of Epiphanius proveth, who rent a veil in pieces, because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint. But in time they were received into the Church, but no honour given them: yet after that, good Bishops brake them and cast them out again; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did, whom he thus checketh for it. In that you forbade them to be worshipped, we commend you, but that you brake them, we reprehend you. Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed, that they were not to be broken, yea that they were religiously to be worshipped. And thus hath it succeeded in other things, as S. Paul did foretell saying; The mystery of iniquity doth already work.
Luther indeed took to wife in holy wedlock, a Virgin that once was entangled by a rash & superstitious vow, after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion. Exclaim bitterly as you list. Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler, seeing your self is a player of a Price. But tell us wherein he did ever show himself such a cutter? forsooth he boldly ventured his life with his fellow citizens.1 If Zuinglius at the command of the Senate went to war against the enemies of his coū try & religion, where he perished by cruel thieves, who lay in wait for him, what did he unbefitting a valiant man, a good citizen, and a faithful Pastor to do. For whereas you challenge him with conspiracy against his country, besides that it is a shameless lie, I wonder why you should object such a crime to him, seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country. As for Calvin whom you call a seareback: runagate, the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man, and a most constant servant of the Lord: who was as far from lewdness and dishonesty, as you are from shamefastness and honesty. If he was seared, S. Paul was so too,2 yea & divers others: but indeed he was not. And whereas you call him a runagate, I pray you tell us, where you have lived for ⟨p. 87⟩these divers years, and remember what your self were. Calvin never forsook the Church, he once took upon him to govern, but there he lived with the special love of all, and there he ended his days: but why do I answer you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men, whom you shall never justly defame, though you burst your hart with lying.
Luther indeed tooke to wife in holy wedlocke, a Virgin that once was intangled by a rash & superstitious vow, after she had bin more rightly instructed in the truth of religion. Exclaime bitterly as you list. Call Zuinglius also a swash buckler, seeing your self is a player of a Price. But tell vs wherein he did euer shew himselfe such a cutter? forsooth he boldly ventered his life with his fellow citizens.1 If Zuinglius at the commaund of the Senate went to warre against the enemies of his coū trie & religion, where he perished by cruell theeues, who lay in waite for him, what did he vnbefitting a valiant man, a good citizen, and a faithfull Pastor to do. For whereas you challenge him with conspiracie against his country, besides that it is a shamelesse lie, I wonder why you should obiect such a crime to him, seeing with you it is a thing very commendable for men to conspire against their Prince and country. As for Caluin whom you call a seareback: runagate, the whole Church of Christ knoweth to be an excellent man, and a most constant seruant of the Lord: who was as farre from lewdnes and dishonastie, as you are from shamefastnes and honesty. If he was seared, S. Paul was so too,2 yea & diuers others: but indeed he was not. And whereas you call him a runagate, I pray you tell vs, where you haue liued for ⟨p. 87⟩these diuers yeares, and remember what your selfe were. Caluin neuer forsooke the Church, hee once tooke vpon him to gouerne, but there he liued with the speciall loue of all, and there he ended his daies: but why doe I answere you anything in defence of those excellent and worthy men, whom you shal neuer iustly defame, though you burst your hart with lying.
But let us now hear your communication as you call it. And here you demand, Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred yours? we answer, we will subscribe: but say you, to which Church? I answerr to the Church which is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles: that is, to the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and all those famous and excellent Churches of which we read in the Epistles written by the Apostles, yea even to the ancient Church of Rome, to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oyster. Finally we subscribe to those Churches, of whom we read in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine, which the Apostles taught among them, sound & uncorrupt. These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine, were true Churches; & to those Churches we have and ever will subscribe. And by this I think we have cut off the progress of your conference, for we have not given you such an answer as you feigned to your self. Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand. but no answer will please you, unless we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church: but that we justly disclaim, because it hath foully corrupted the ••• stles ⟨p. 88⟩writing. You must find you out other subscribers, Campian, for we will subscribe to none but the Apostolical Churches. But one thing, say you, they will still stand upon in darkness, that where and in what place soever the Church is, there are conceived therein only Saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heaven. We speak not so of the Church as you write: for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church, that it is sometimess visible and sometimes invisible. In a particular visible Church, of which they are members, who will hear the Word, and receive the Sacraments: we confess there are many feigned Christians, who had rather have the visard of faith, then true faith indeed. An invisible Church we affirm to contain only the godly, who with a true faith lay hold on the Gospel. These though they may be seen as long as they live amongst men, seeing they are men as others be, yet because neither their faith nor Gods love, which maketh them members of the Church, is visible, we affirm that this Church, consisting of holy and faithful men, is altogether invisible.
But let vs now heare your communication as you call it. And heere you demaund, Whether we will subscribe to the Church which flourished these many hundred youres? we answere, we will subscribe: but say you, to which Church? I answerer to the Church which is built vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles: that is, to the Churches of Hierusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, and all those famous and excellent Churches of which wee reade in the Epistles written by the Apostles, yea euen to the auncient Church of Rome, to which yours is no more like then an apple to an oyste•. Finally we subscribe to those Churches, of whom we reade in histories that they kept the seed of that doctrine, which the Apostles taught among them, sound & vncorrupt. These Churches as long as they did continue in the Apostles doctrine, were true Churches; & to those Churches we haue and euer will subscribe. And by this I thinke we haue cut off the progresse of your conference, for we haue not giuen you such an answere as you fained to your selfe. Wherefore that which followeth in you hangeth together like a rope of sand. but no answere will please you, vnlesse we offer to subscribe to your Romish Church: but that we iustly disclaime, because it hath fouly corrupted the ••• stles ⟨p. 88⟩writing. You must find you out other subscribers, Campian, for wee will subscribe to none but the Apostolicall Churches. But one thing, say you, they will still stand vpon in darkenes, that where and in what place soeuer the Church is, there are con•eiued therein only Saints, and such as are predestinate to go to heauen. We speake not so of the Church as you write: for we are taught by the Scriptures thus to distinguish the Church, that it is sometimess visible and sometimes inuisible. In a particular visible Church, of which they are members, who will heare the Word, and receiue the Sacraments: we confesse there are many fained Christians, who had rather haue the visard of faith, then true faith indeed. An inuisible Church we affirme to containe only the godly, who with a true faith lay hold on the Gospell. These though they may bee seene as long as they liue amongst men, seeing they are men as others bee, yet because neither their faith nor Gods loue, which maketh them members of the Church, is visible, we affirme that this Church, consisting of holy and faithfull men, is altogether inuisible.
rDVR. He did not demand whether you would subscribe to that Church, which had continued in the precept of the Apostles, but whether to that Church, which hath flourished these many hundred years; which if you would, you must needs yield as overcome, when none but ours have flourished thus long. WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred years: or for many ages together in the opinion of men, it only h•• the name of ••e church: […] will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now […] they hold the Apostles doctrine: but you shall never prove […] we must necessarily subscribe to place, Sea, & succession, no more then Christ & his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing upon the earth.DVR. He did not demaund whether you would subscribe to that Church, which had continued in the precept of the Apostles, but vvhether to that Church, vvhich hath flourished these many hundred yeares; vvhich if you vvould, you must needs yeeld as ouercome, vvhen none but ours haue flourished thus long. WHIT. pag. 285. As if no Church but the Romish Church had flourished these many hundred yeares: or for many ages together in the opinion of men, it only h•• the name of ••e church: 〈…〉 will subscribe to all Churches whether they flourished now 〈…〉 they hold the Apostles doctrine: but you shall neuer proue 〈…〉 we must necessarily subscribe to place, Sea, & succession, no more then Christ & his disciples were bound when there was no true Church flourishing vpon the earth.
sDVR. I believe only one Catholic Church, as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me, which containeth both the elect, and as many as profess true religion. Now you teach me to believe two Churches. WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the unity of the Church, no more then when the Church is said to be m•••an and u••• phant, universal and particular. For the visible and ••uisible Church make but one: called visible, for the outward policy or order of it, which is seen and discerned; invisible because Gods election and the elects faith is not to be seen with eyes. And this distinction we have, Isaiah. 1.9.
Christ is the head of this Church, to this only the elect ca• join themselves, ⟨p. 89⟩we then acknowledge another Church besides that, which containeth only Saints (for so should there be no visible Church at all) but what company of men soever upon the earth doth profess the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets, we profess that to be the true Church of Christ, though many wicked men be found in it. Neither are we the first who did invent and devise these things, as you say of us, but are ready to prove them both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity. Comfort then your self, Campian, as much as you can, with the wits of our University men, and promise to your self great things from us, but see you bring more dexterity of wit, or else without doubt you can never deceive us with this shallow conceit. If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our University men, I persuade my self, they would not only tear to pieces these your childish shifts, but do as much by you too, for abusing so shamefully their learned conceits.
Christ is the head of this Church, to this only the elect ca• ioyne themselues, ⟨p. 89⟩wee then acknowledge another Church besides that, which cōteineth only Saints (for so should there be no visible Church at all) but what company of men soeuer vpon the earth doth professe the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets, we professe that to be the true Church of Christ, though many wicked men be found in it. Neither are we the first who did inuent and deuise these things, as you say of vs, but are ready to proue thē both by the holy scripture and by authority of Antiquity. Comfort then your selfe, Campian, as much as you can, with the wits of our Vniuersity men, and promise to your selfe great things from vs, but see you bring more dexterity of wit, or else without doubt you can neuer deceiue vs with this shallow conceit. If you should propound these foolish and childish things in the populous assemblies of our Vniuersity men, I perswade my selfe, they would not only teare to pieces these your childish shifts, but do as much by you too, for abusing so shamefully their learned conceites.
A Great controversy for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law, which in the Primitive Church much moved the minds of faithful people, was by a Council gathered together, of the Apostles and some elders decided. Children then believed their Parents, and sheep their Shepherds, charging them in this sort:a It hath pleased the holy Ghost, and us; after this there were holden four general ⟨p. 90⟩Councils of ancient Fathers, for the rooting out of heresy, which budded up abundantly in every age, which were of such authority aboveb 1000. years ago, that* great honour was attributed unto them, as though it had been unto the four Gospels. I will seek no further; even here in our own Country by anc act of Parliament, the self same Councils do retain still their former force, and pure authority: which said act I will here allege: And call thee, thy self O England, my most loving Country, to witness. If thou reverence, as thou pretendest, those Councils,5 then wilt thou yield up the supremacy to the Bishop of the chief sea, that is, to Saint Peter. Then wilt thou acknowledge upon the altar, the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heaven to make intercession to Christ for thee. Then wilt thou restrain these lecherous Apostates from their filthy carnal copulation, and open incest. Then wilt thou build up many things, which now thou pullest down, and wish many things undone, which now thou doest. Moreover, I promise and undertake, as occasion and time shall serve, to prove, that the* Councils holden at other times, and namely the Council of Trent, have been of equal authority and credit with the four first Councils. Wherefore then should I not come to this place of trial, securely and courageously, to mark into what corner my enemy will creep, seeing I am* aided with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councils? For I will allege both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside, and also most substantially proved, which he dare not contemptuously reject. He will perhaps go about to trifle out the time, with multiplying of many words: but if you be the men that I have always taken you for, you will take so good heed unto him, that he shall neither rob you of your ears nor eyes.
AGreat controuersie for the keeping of the ceremonies of the old law, which in the Primitiue Church much moued the minds of faithfull people, was by a Councell gathered together, of the Apostles and some elders decided. Children then beleeued their Parents, and sheepe their Sheepheards, charging them in this sort:a It hath pleased the holy Ghost, and vs; after this there were holden foure generall ⟨p. 90⟩Councels of auncient Fathers, for the rooting out of heresie, which budded vp aboundantly in euery age, which were of such authoritie aboueb 1000. yeeres agoe, that* great honour was attributed vnto them, as though it had been vnto the foure Gospels. I will seeke no further; euen here in our owne Countrey by anc acte of Parliament, the selfe same Councels doe retaine still their former force, and pure authoritie: which said acte I will heere alleadge: And call thee, thy selfe O England, my most louing Countrey, to witnesse. If thou reuerence, as thou pretendest, those Councels,5 then wilt thou yeeld vp the supremacie to the Bishop of the chiefe sea, that is, to Saint Peter. Then wilt thou acknowledge vpon the altar, the vnbloodie sacrifice of the bodie and blood of Christ. Then wilt thou pray the blessed Martyrs and all the Saints in Heauen to make intercession to Christ for thee. Then wilt thou restraine these leacherous Apostataes from their filthie carnall copulation, and open incest. Then wilt thou build vp many things, which now thou pullest downe, and wish many things vndone, which now thou doest. Moreouer, I promise and vndertake, as occasion and time shall serue, to proue, that the* Councels holden at other times, and namely the Councell of Trent, haue been of equall authoritie and credit with the foure first Councels. Wherefore then should I not come to this place of triall, securely and couragiously, to marke into what corner my enemie will creepe, seeing I am* ayded with the valiant and piked garrison of all the Councels? For I will alleadge both most manifest matter which he shall not be able to wrest aside, and also most substantially prooued, which he dare not contemptuously reiect. He will perhaps goe about to trifle out the time, with multiplying of many words: but if you be the men that I haue alwaies taken you for, you will take so good heed vnto him, that he shall neither rob you of your eares nor eyes.
If there shall be any at all so mad, as to oppose himself against the sages of all Christendom, ⟨p. 91⟩and those, such men as for holiness of life learning and antiquity, are too great to be challenged; I would willingly behold that brazen face, the which when I shall show you, I will leave the rest to your imaginations. In the mean while, I will give you this caveat, that whosoever affirmeth, that a general Council,* duly and orderly kept, and finished, is of no force or authority, the same man seemeth to me, to be one of no judgement, nor of any wit; and not only an ass in divinity, but also void of discretion in worldly policy. If ever the spirit of God illuminated the Church, surely then that time is most fit to send down the holy Ghost, when the religion, perfection, knowledge, wisdom and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendom, are assembled together into one City: and using all means both divine and humane, whereby the truth may be searched out,2 they call upon the holy Ghost, promisede by God unto them, that by his assistance, they may establish godly laws, for the safe and wise government of the Church. Now let there some petty peart heretical Doctor leap out, let him look up stately, let him scorn and mock, let him lay all shame aside, let him saucily give judgement of his own judges, what game, what pastime shall he make; we have spied out such a one, even Martin fLuther, who saith, that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men (ye may well imagine his own, and Philip Melanchthon's) if they come together in Christs name, then he did of all general Councils. O worthy company! We have found out also, another of the same crew, to witg Kemnitius, who hath undertaken to examine the Council of Trent, by his own unreasonable giddy brain: what hath he gained? an evil name: so that he, except he prevent it by recanting, shall be buried for an heretic with Arrius: whereas the Council of Trent, the elder it waxeth, by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually.*
If there shall be any at all so mad, as to oppose himselfe against the sages of all Christendome, ⟨p. 91⟩and those, such men as for holines of life learning and antiquitie, are too great to be challenged; I would willingly behold that brazen face, the which when I shall sh•w you, I will leaue the rest to your imaginations. In the meane while, I will giue you this caueat, that whosoeuer affirmeth, that a generall Councell,* duly and orderly kept, and finished, is of no force or authoritie, the same man seemeth to me, to be one of no iudgement, nor of any wit; and not onely an asse in diuinitie, but also voide of discretion in worldly policie. If euer the spirit of God illuminated the Church, surely then that time is most fit to send downe the holy Ghost, when the religion, perfection, knowledge, wisdome and honour of all Churches dispersed throughout all Christendome, are assembled together into one Citie: and vsing all meanes both diuine and humane, whereby the truth may be searched out,2 they call vpon the holy Ghost, promisede by God vnto them, that by his assistance, they may establish godly lawes, for the safe and wise gouernement of the Church. Now let there some pettie peart hereticall Doctor leape out, let him looke vp stately, let him scorne and mocke, let him lay all shame aside, let him saucily giue iudgement of his owne iudges, what game, what pastime shall he make; we haue spied out such a one, euen Martin fLuther, who saith, that he more esteemeth of the voices of two honest and learned men (ye may well imagine his owne, and Philip Melancthons) if they come together in Christs name, then he did of all generall Councels. O worthy companie! We haue found out also, another of the same crue, to witg Kemnitius, who hath vndertaken to examine the Councell of Trent, by his owne vnreasonable giddie braine: what hath he gained? an euill name: so that he, except he preuent it by recanting, shall be buried for an heriticke with Arrius: whereas the Councell of Trent, the elder it waxeth, by so much more it shall flourish daily and continually.*
*The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell, nor lawfully held. And so both the Emperor and the French King have judged. Sleidan. anno 1551. lib. 33. The assembly of certain men.The Councell of Trent was neither a full Councell, nor lawfully held. And so both the Emperor and the French King haue iudged. Sleidan. anno 1551. lib. 33. The assemblie of certaine men.
O good Lord, with what diversity of people out of all countries, with what ⟨p. 92⟩choice of Bishops throughout all Christendom, with what excellency of Kings and Common-weals, with what profound divines, with what* devotion, with what lamentations, with what abstinence and fasting, with what flowers of Universities, with what knowledge of strange tongues, with what sharp wits, with what study, with what endless reading, with what store of virtues and exercises was that sacred place replenished? I heard with my own ears Bishops rejoice, being men of great birth and very well learned, of which, one was Anthony Archbishop of Prague (who created me Priest) for that they had been brought up certain years in that famous School; so that they acknowledged no benefit that ever the Emperor Ferdinando bestowed on them (to whom otherwise also they thought themselves no little beholding) to be more princely and bountiful, then this was, that by him being sent in Embassage from Pannonia, they sate in the Council of Trent, together with the rest of the Fathers there present. This thing the Emperor full well perceived, who greeted them in this sort at their return: We have maintained you in an exceeding good School, why made the adversaries no hast hither, being promised to go and come safe; that they might openly have confuted them, against whom they croak like Toads out of their holes. They have broken promise (say they) with Huss and Hierome, who? the heads of the Council of Constance. That is a lye:2 for they made them no promise. And yet Huss had not been put to death; if that he, false and treacherous villain as he was, not only by an escape, which the Emperor Sigismundus had forbidden him upon pain of death; and being taken, was brought back again: but also by* breaking certain covenants which he had made in writing with the Emperor had not lost the benefit of that safe conduct: Huss was hedged in for his hasty knavery; for whereas at his country in Bohem, he had stirred up barbarous tumults, and was therefore commanded to appear before the general ⟨p. 93⟩Council at Constance, he contemned the prerogative of the Council, and made suite for a safe conduct to the Emperor. The* Emperor sealed him one; all Christendom, which is greater then the Emperor, unsealed it again: the arch heretic would not recant, and therefore he was burnt:5
O good Lord, with what diuersitie of people out of all countries, with what ⟨p. 92⟩choice of Bishops throughout all Christendome, with what excellencie of Kings and Common-weales, with what profound diuines, with what* deuotion, with what lamentations, with what abstinence and fasting, with what flowers of Ʋniuersities, with what knowledge of strange tongues, with what sharpe wits, with what studie, with what endlesse reading, with what store of vertues and exercises was that sacred place replenished? I heard with my owne eares Bishops reioyce, being men of great birth and very well learned, of which, one was Anthony Archbishop of Prage (who created me Priest) for that they had been brought vp certaine yeeres in that famous Schoole; so that they acknowledged no benefite that euer the Emperour Ferdinando bestowed on them (to whom otherwise also they thought themselues no little beholding) to be more princely and bountifull, then this was, that by him being sent in Embassage from Pannonia, they sate in the Councell of Trent, together with the rest of the Fathers there present. This thing the Emperour full well perceiued, who greeted them in this sort at their returne: We haue maintained you in an exceeding good Schoole, why made the aduersaries no hast hither, being promised to goe and come safe; that they might openly haue confuted them, against whom they croke like Toads out of their hoales. They haue broken promise (say they) with Husse and Hierome, who? the heads of the Councell of Constance. That is a lye:2 for they made them no promise. And yet Husse had not been put to death; if that he, false and treacherous villaine as he was, not only by an escape, which the Emperour Sigismundus had forbidden him vpon paine of death; and being taken, was brought backe againe: but also by* breaking certaine couenants which he had made in writing with the Emperor had not lost the benefit of that safe conduct: Husse was hedged in for his hastie knauerie; for whereas at his countrie in Bohem, he had stirred vp barbarous tumults, and was therfore commanded to appeare before the generall ⟨p. 93⟩Councel at Constance, he contemned the prerogatiue of the Councell, and made suite for a safe conduct to the Emperor. The* Emperour sealed him one; all Christendome, which is greater then the Emperour, vnsealed it again: the arch heretike would not recant, and therfore he was burnt:
*Two Bishops were taken in adultery and put to death. Illyric.Two Bishops were taken in adulterie and put to death. Illyric.
As for Hierome of Prague, he came privately without any safe conduct at all to the Council of Constance, and being apprehended did appear, and had liberty to say what he could, and was very courteously entreated, and suffered to go abroad at his pleasure. He was cured of his disease, and abjured his heresy, he fell again, and therefore was burnt. But wherefore do they so often inculcate and call to memory, this one example amongst six hundred?1 Let them peruse their chronicles: Martin Luther, one hated both of God and man, personally appeared at Augusta before the Cardinal Caietane, and did he not belch forth of his venomous gorge, what poisoned speeches he could, and at length being protected with the Emperor Maximilian's safe conduct, went he not safe away?2 The same Martin Luther being sent for, to come to Worms, though he had both the Emperor, and almost all the Princes of the Empire his Enemies, did he not upon the Emperors word come and go safe? Finally, did not the ring-leaders of the Lutherans and Zwinglians in the presence of Charles the fifth, the open enemy to all heretics, Conqueror, and sovereign, upon a truce granted them, exhibit at an assembly at Augusta,3 the confession of their faith, which before they had so often altered, and went they not without hurt away? Likewise the council of Trent provided for the adversary most large warrants to come and go safe, but he would not use the same. He beasteth forsooth of himself in corners, where when he can utter three greek words, he may seem to be a great learned man: He flies from the light, which would make a slender scholar to be accounted learned, and so advance him to seats of great dignity. Let them purchase for ⟨p. 94⟩us English Catholics, if they love their souls health,* such a safe conduct in writing: we will not allege Huss for our excuse, but make our speedy repair to the court, putting our whole trust in the Queens Majesties word. But that I may return thither from whence I digressed: All general Councils are on my side, the first, the last, the rest; these shall be my weapons. Let the adversary expect, a well headed dart, which he shall never be able to shake off. God grant that Satan in him may be quite overthrown, and Christ revined.
As for Hierome of Prage, he came priuately without any safe conduct at all to the Councell of Constance, and being apprehended did appeare, and had libertie to say what he could, and was verie curteously intreated, and suffered to goe abroad at his pleasure. Hee was cured of his disease, and abiured his heresie, hee fell againe, and therefore was burnt. But wherefore do they so often inculcate and call to memorie, this one example amongst sixe hundred?1 Let them peruse their chronicles: Martin Luther, one hated both of God and man, personallie appeared at Augusta before the Cardinall Caietane, and did he not belche forth of his venemouse gorge, what poysoned speeches he could, and at length being protected with the Emperour Maximilians safe conduct, went he not safe away?2 The same Martin Luther being sent for, to come to Wormes, though hee had both the Emperour, and almost all the Princes of the Empire his Enemies, did hee not vpon the Emperours word come and goe safe? Finally, did not the ring-leaders of the Lutherans and Zuinglians in the presence of Charles the fifth, the open enemie to all heretikes, Conqueror, and soueraigne, vpon a truce graunted them, exhibit at an assemblie at Augusta,3 the confession of their faith, which before they had so often altered, and went they not without hurt away? Likewise the councell of Trent prouided for the aduersarie most large warrants to come and goe safe, but he would not vse the same. He beasteth forsooth of himselfe in corners, where when he can vtter three greeke words, he may seeme to bee a great learned man: He flies from the light, which would make a slender scholler to bee accounted learned, and so aduance him to seates of great dignitie. Let them purchase for ⟨p. 94⟩vs English Catholikes, if they loue their soules health,* such a safe conduct in writing: wee will not alleadge Husse for our excuse, but make our speedie repaire to the court, putting our whole trust in the Queenes Maiesties word. But that I may returne thither from whence I digressed: All generall Councels are on my side, the first, the last, the rest; these shalbe my weapons. Let the aduersarie expect, a well headed dart, which he shall neuer be able to shake off. God graunt that Satan in him may be quite ouerthrowne, and Christ reuined.
THE next place is concerning Councils, not much differing from the former; for what is a Council but the flower, and as it were a little model of the whole Church? And therefore whatsoever may be said of Coū cels, it appertaineth to the nature of the Church; but when as these for more plainness sake, are sometimes distinguished, I do easily permit you to propound them distinctly.a Now the name of Councils is honourable, their credit singular, and their authority of ⟨p. 95⟩great esteem, and you do never more insolently brag, then in this place: for when you do but name Councils, you think that you have sufficiently confuted your adversaries, and promise unto your self assured victory. Neither will I go about to extenuate the dignity of Councils, wondering thatb Nazianzene, 3should so unjustly judge, and so injuriously write of them. For he saith, that he had deliberated with himself and fully resolved to avoid Episcopal Convocations, because he had never seen a good issue of any Synod. Which howsoever it hath bin true of many, which by reason of the ambition, and busy meddling of some, have not taken away ancient controversies, but rather have sowed the seed of new contentions: yet many Councils have been approved and commended by their most wished event. Whereas therefore you appeal to Councils, we will follow you in many, & in their most weighty censures and decrees: for in all neither do you your selves judge it necessary. But let us now hear you discoursing concerning Councils.
THE next place is concerning Councels, not much differing from the former; for what is a Councell but the flower, and as it were a little modell of the whole Church? And therefore whatsoeuer may be said of Coū cels, it appertaineth to the nature of the Church; but when as these for more plainnes sake, are sometimes distinguished, I doe easily permit you to propound them distinctly.a Now the name of Councels is honorable, their credit singular, and their authority of ⟨p. 95⟩great esteeme, and you doe neuer more insolently bragge, then in this place: for when you doe but name Councels, you thinke that you haue sufficiently confuted your aduersaries, and promise vnto your selfe assured victory. Neither will I go about to extenuate the dignity of Councels, wōdering thatb Nazianzene, 3should so vniustly iudge, and so iniuriously write of them. For he saith, that he had deliberated with himselfe and fully resolued to auoid Episcopall Conuocations, because he had neuer seene a good issue of any Synode. Which howsoeuer it hath bin true of many, which by reason of the ambition, and busie medling of some, haue not taken away auncient controuersies, but rather haue sowed the seed of new contentions: yet many Councels haue been approued and commended by their most wished euent. Whereas therefore you appeale to Councels, we will follow you in many, & in their most weighty censures and decrees: for in all neither do you your selues iudge it necessary. But let vs now heare you discoursing concerning Councels.
aDVR. But you coutemne the authority of the holy Ghost, speaking by Councels, which all the ancient Fathers have had in singular respect. WHIT. pag. 290. You accuse us falsely, for howsoever we assent not with you, who make them shoulder the Scriptures with equal authority; because we know that both they might, and also have grossly erred in many things, as the Fathers have confessed, and ye your selves cannot deny; yet wherein they are consonant with the Scriptures, we embrace their authority▪ and have them in singular respect, and estination. And in preferring the Scripture before them, we follow but the example of the Fathers. August. de Baptis. contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. idem contra Maxim. lib. 3▪ cap. 14. & de unitat. Eccle. cap. 16. Hieron. in Galatas. Ambros. Epist. 32.DVR. But you coutemne the authority of the holy Ghost, speaking by Councels, which al the auncient Fathers haue had in singular respect. WHIT. pag. 290. You accuse vs falsely, for howsoeuer we assent not with you, who make them shoulder the Scriptures with equall authority; because we know that both they might, and also haue grossely erred in many things, as the Fathers haue confessed, and yee your selues cannot deny; yet wherein they are consonant with the Scriptures, we embrace their authority▪ and haue them in singular respect, and estination. And in preferring the Scripture before them, we follow but the example of the Fathers. August. de Baptis. contra Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. idem contra Maxim. lib. 3▪ cap. 14. & de vnitat. Eccle. cap. 16. Hieron. in Galatas. Ambros. Epist. 32.
bDVR. Nazianzene d•d not judge inturiously nor writeth bitterly of Councels, as you suppose; but only affirmed that the fraud and malice of the heretics of those times, hindered the assembling of lawful Councels. WHIT. pag. 264. It seemeth you have not read his Epistle, or but very sle•gtly, •eeing he therein plainly set•eth down two reasons why he absented himself from the Councell, when he was called: f••st the weakness of his body, and secondly, his judgment concerning Councels: which was, that he thought such assemblies were to be avoided, because he had seen no good of any Synod, and that hereby occasions of evils were rather increased then taken away. DVR. Yea but he hath shened his contrary judgment writing his Cledonius. WHIT. Nothing less: but only he affirmeth that he would subscribe to the Apollinarian heretics, if they could prove that they were received of the west Councell; which he knew they could not.
A weighty question, (say you) concerning lawful cere•••ies, was cleared in a Council of the Apostles and Fld•rs assembled together. The children believed their Parents, and the Sheep their Shepherd, commanding in this form of speech; It bath pleased the holy Ghost and us. Where you make mention of a Council most excellent, and above all exceptions: in which nothing was done rashly, perversely, and factiously (as sometimes in other Councils ⟨p. 96⟩it hath been accustomed) but all things divinely, and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself. and therefore if we did not believe this Council, we were unworthy of the name, either of children or of sheep. This Council resolved that important question concerning ceremonies, and freed the necks of Christians from that most grievous yoke of Mosaical rites: whereby the greater cause of grief is offered us by you, who have imposed upon the Church, contrary to the express commandment of this Council, another yoke much more intolerable, then that of Moses. For this is clear and manifest, that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you, and imposed upon the consciences of men, are twice as many, as those which in time past Moses by Gods express commandment enjoined unto the people of Israel.1 And this is that of whichc Augustine long agone complained, namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies, the state of Christians, was become worse then the state of the Jews themselves, which if Augustine spake of the ceremonies of his time, how much more would he have thus complained, had he seen the great multitudes, which were afterwards added to them. But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning & judgment of the holy Ghost, did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himself had ordained, were to be abolished, how intolerable is your boldness, who contrary to the decree ⟨p. 97⟩of this spirit, and Council have obtruded, upon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies. Did the Lord therefore abolish his own ceremonies, that he might establish yours? did he abroga•• a few, that he might bring in a multitude? did he ease us of lighter, that he might impose heavier. Whereby it appeareth that the divine institution of this Council, which, as it was before all other in time, so above all other in excellency, is most wickedly by you violated.
A waighty question, (say you) concerning lawfull cere•••ies, was cleared in a Councell of the Apostles and Fld•rs assembled together. The children beleeued their Parents, and the Sheepe their Sheph•ard, commaunding in this forme of speech; It bath pleased the holy Ghost and vs. Where you make mention of a Councell most excellent, and aboue all exceptions: in which nothing was done rashly, peruersely, and factiously (as sometimes in other Councels ⟨p. 96⟩it hath been accustomed) but al things diuinely, and by the authority of the holy Ghost himself. and therfore if we did not beleeue this Councell, we were vnworthy of the name, either of children or of sheep. This Councel resolued that important question concerning ceremonies, and freed the neckes of Christians from that most grieuous yoke of Mosaicall rites: whereby the greater cause of griefe is offered vs by you, who haue imposed vpon the Church, contrarie to the expresse commandement of this Councell, another yoke much more intolerable, then that of Moses. For this is cleare and manifest, that the ceremonies brought into the Church by you, and imposed vpon the consciences of men, are twice as many, as those which in time past Moses by Gods expresse commaundement inioyned vnto the people of Israell.1 And this is that of whichc Augustine long agone complained, namely that by the multitudes of ceremonies, the state of Christians, was become worse then the state of the Iewes themselues, which if Augustine spake of the ceremonies of his time, how much more would he haue thus complained, had he seene the great multitudes, which were afterwards added to them. But if the Apostles and Elders according to the meaning & iudgment of the holy Ghost, did determine that those ceremonies which the Lord himselfe had ordeined, were to be abolished, how intolerable is your boldnes, who contrary to the decree ⟨p. 97⟩of this spirit, and Councell haue obtruded, vpon Christians your innumerable traditions and needles ceremonies. Did the Lord therfore abolish his owne ceremonies, that he might establish yours? did he abroga•• a few, that he might bring in a multitude? did he ease vs of lighter, that he might impose heauier. Whereby it appeareth that the diuine institution of this Councel, which, as it was before all other in time, so aboue all other in excellency, is most wickedly by you violated.
1August. ad Januar.August. ad Ianuar.
cDVR. Angustine when he writ this, did not after your manner carp at Ecclesiastical ceremonies, but showeth that be would not have them instituted at every mans pleasure. For in his first Epistle to Januariu• he thus writeth. If the whole Church use any of these, it i• insolent madness to dispute, whether such a thing is to be done or no? WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time, and would have us rest contented with those few ceremonies, which are commended unto us in the Scriptures. Ad Januar. Epist. 118. cap. 1. & Epist. 119.19. His words which you allege, I willingly embrace; for we use and esteem those ceremonies, which all Churches have received as necessary for order and comeliness. But of this kind yours are not, neither can you wrest those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approve your Traditions: seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ.DVR. Angustine vvhen he vvrit this, did not after your manner carpe at Ecclesiasticall ceremonies, but shevveth that be vvould not haue them instituted at euery mans pleasure. For in his first Epistle to Ianuariu• he thus vvriteth. If the vvhole Church vse any of these, it i• insolent madnes to dispute, vvhether such a thing is to be done or no? WHIT. pag. 296. Augustine condemneth the multitude of ceremonies in his time, and vvould haue vs rest contented vvith those few ceremonies, vvhich are commended vnto vs in the Scriptures. Ad Ianuar. Epist. 118. cap. 1. & Epist. 119.19. His vvords vvhich you alleage, I vvillinglie embrace; for vve vse and esteeme those ceremonies, vvhich all Churches haue receiued as necessary for order and comelinesse. But of this kind yours are not, neither can you vvrest those speeches concerning the ceremonies of the Church to approue your Traditions: seeing the Church of Rome long since ceased to be the Church of Christ.
And is it to be thought possible, that you, who have demeaned your selves so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors, will be more respective towards others? Nay there is not any Council, which you have not long ago trodden under feet, so that every one of you, are enfolded in a thousand excommunications. And dare you, Campian, notwithstanding make mention of Councils, which if they were in any force, surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church, then Publicans and Pagans. There followeth this, say you, for the rooting out of heresy, the four general Councils of the ancient Fathers, which were of such strength and authority, that a thousand years since, they were had in singular account even as Gods word it self. And we likewise do freely confess, that the authority of those four Councils was good and profitable.1 Read what learned Luther hath writ of those four general Councils, and so also you may know our judgement of them. Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent unto Gregory, 2who professeth that he doth embrace and reverence these four Councils, as the four books of the holy Gospel. For this were rather to violate the Gospel, then to reverence the Councils. Although as I take it, Gregory's meaning was, that what was decreed and concluded in these four Councils, out of Gods word against Arrive, Eu••onius, Macedonius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Diosc•ru•, that he firmly embraced, and would not suffer ⟨p. 98⟩these decreet, which are approved by the Evangelical writings, and in which this impious heresy is condemned, to be revoked and repealed no more then the Gospel it self, neither can I imagine that it was Gregory's purpose to affirm this of all these Councils, that the Council of Nice, Constantine ple, Ephesus and Chalced•n, were fully equal unto the holy Gospel in authority and dignity. And so we our selves do not doubt, that those things which these Fathers have determined against those heretics, before named concerning the consubstantial subsistence of the Father and the Son, of the divinity of the holy Ghost, of the one person of Christ in two natures, are as true as the Gospel it self; not because these Councils so judged and concluded, but because in the Gospel, the self same doctrine of faith is delivered.
And is it to be thought possible, that you, who haue demeaned your selues so impiously towards these Parents and Pastors, will be more respectiue towards others? Nay there is not any Councell, which you haue not long ago trodden vnder feete, so that euery one of you, are infoulded in a thousand excōmunications. And dare you, Campian, notwithstanding make mention of Councels, which if they were in any force, surely you should no more be tolerated in the Church, then Publicans and Pagans. There followeth this, say you, for the rooting out of heresie, the foure general Councels of the auncient Fathers, which were of such strength and authority, that a thousand yeares since, they were had in singular account euen as Gods word it selfe. And we likewise doe freely confesse, that the authority of those foure Councels was good and profitable.1 Reade what learned Luther hath writ of those foure generall Councels, and so also you may know our iudgement of them. Notwithstanding there is no reason why we should assent vnto Gregorie, 2who professeth that he doth imbrace and reuerence these foure Councels, as the foure bookes of the holy Gospell. For this were rather to violate the Gospell, then to reuerence the Councels. Although as I take it, Gregories meaning was, that what was decreed and concluded in these foure Councels, out of Gods word against Arriu•, Eu••onius, Macedonius, Nostorius, Eutyches, and Diosc•ru•, that he firmely embraced, and would not suffer ⟨p. 98⟩these decreet, which are approued by the Euangelicall writings, and in which this impious heresie is condemned, to be reuoked and repealed no more then the Gospell it selfe, neither can I imagine that it was Gregories purpose to affirme this of all these Councels, that the Councell of Nice, Constantin• ple, Ephesus and Chalced•n, were fully equall vnto the holy Gospell in authority and dignity. And so we our selues do not doubt, that those things which these Fathers haue determined against those heretikes, before named concerning the consubstantiall subsistence of the Father and the Sonne, of the diuinity of the holy Ghost, of the one person of Christ in two natures, are as true as the Gospel it selfe; not because these Councels so iudged and concluded, but because in the Gospell, the selfe same doctrine of faith is deliuered.
Further you say, That also i•••r own country, by our Parliaments, the same Councils retain their ancient right. It is true indeed, that in these and all other things, which they propound, if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures, they do still retain their ancient right and dignity. But lest you should suppose that we did ever attribute thus much to these Councils, that we judge all that to be necessarily embraced, whatsoever they have decreed; hear you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these general Councils. Councils, not only may err, but also sometimes have erred, 1and that in these things, which belong to the rule of piety, and therefore whatsoever by them is decreed as necessary to salvation, hath no virtues nor authority, unless it may be showed that it is taken ou• of the holy Scriptures. Cite you now these words, and then contest (as you call it) your sweet country. And in like manner, this your most dear country in which you were borne, brought up and graced, doth contest, entreat, and beseech you, by all those things, which are unto you most swee•e and best esteemed, that you desist any more in this b•dde ⟨p. 99⟩cause to be troublesome unto her; that you will no• corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion; that you will make more precious account of her dignity, then of a foreign enemy: and that you would at length return thither, from whence you have stra•ed. And surely you would not contemn this speech of your country, if you could, even for a little space, lay aside, that prejudicate opinion which you have sucked from Rome, and brought with you hither into England.
Further you say, That also i•••r owne country, by our Parliaments, the same Councels retaine their auncient right. It is true indeed, that in these and all other things, which they propound, if they be consonant to the holy Scriptures, they doe still retaine their auncient right and dignity. But lest you should suppose that we did euer attribute thus much to these Councels, that we iudge all that to be necessarily embraced, whatsoeuer they haue decreed; heare you now what our Church hath thought and ordained of these generall Councels. Councels, not only may erre, but also sometimes haue erred, 1and that in these things, which belong to the rule of piety, and therfore whatsoeuer by them is decreed as necessary to saluation, hath no vertus nor authority, vnlesse it may be shewed that it is taken ou• of the holy Scriptures. Cite you now these words, and then contest (as you call it) your sweet coūtry. And in like māner, this your most deare countrie in which you were borne, brought vp and graced, doth contest, intreat, and beseech you, by all those things, which are vnto you most swee•e and best esteemed, that you desist any more in this b•dde ⟨p. 99⟩cause to be troublesome vnto her; that you will no• corrupt her children with an impious and strange religion; that you will make more preciou• account of her dignity, then of a forraine enemie: and that you would at length returne thither, from whence you haue stra•ed. And surely you would not contemne this speech of your country, if you could, euen for a litle space, lay aside, that preiudicate opinion which you haue sucked from Rome, and brought with you hither into England.
DVR. Tell me then from whom, and in what age any doctrine of our profession was brought into the Church. WHIT. pag. 277. The motion of the Sunne is so very swift, that we may see it hath moued, though we cannot discerne the mouing of it: so such is the mystery of your iniquity that I well perceiue by the Scriptures your doctrines are not Apostolicall; but the time when, and the manner how they were brought in, is not much to our purpose. And it were too long to tell all, yet heare some, Your Romish Bishop a long time together was but equall to other Bishops th•ugh much was giuen to him for the excellency of that Church. After the Christian world was diuided into foure Prouinces, when he became the chiefe of the Patriarkes, after this he began to challenge authority ouer other Churches, and for that purpose counterfeited the Councell of Nice: but he was repressed by the African Councell. Then Gregory the great, greatly inueyed against Iohn of Constantinople, because he sought the name of vniuersall Bishop, and for that ambition called him the forerunner of Antichrist. Lastly, Boniface the eight with a great summe obtained that honor of Phocas the Parricide. And since that hee grew to that height, that hee made not only Churches and Kings, but the Christian Emperour himselfe to kisse his feete. But see another example. Time was when there were no images in Churches: As that of Epiphanius proueth, who rent a vaile in peeces, because there was in it an image of Christ or of some Saint. But in time they were receiued into the Church, but no honor giuen them: yet after that, good Bishops brake them and cast them out againe; as Gregory writeth that Serenus the Bishop of Massilia did, whom he thus checketh for it. In that you forbad them to be worshipped, wee commend you, but that you brake them, we reprehend you. Gregor. regist. lib. 7. Epist. 9. Lastly the second Nicene Councell decreed, that they were not to be broken, yea that they were religiously to be worshipped. And thus hath it succeeded in other things, as S. Paul did foretell•e saying; The mysterie of iniquitie doth alreadie worke. 2. Thess. 2.7.
oDVR. What can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious. WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously, when he did so •••ell of a departing, and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God. Is this any other then that the mystery of iniquity should spread it self over the Church?DVR. VVhat can be spoken or imagined more wicked and impious. WHIT. pag. 278. Then prophesied S. Paul impiously, when he did so •••ell of a departing, and that Antichrist should sit in the Temple of God. Is this any other then that the mysterie of iniquitie should spread it selfe ouer the Church?
pDVR. This is very false, for in the Florentine Councell the Emperor Paleolus, together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and embraced the Roman faith, yea and at this day they dissent from us in few things, as Icremy the Patriarch of Constantinople hath plainly written. WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatics, or why obey they not the Pope? why came they not to the Councell of Trent? the Pope by all means hath sought to have them subject to him, but they still contemn him to his no small grief. It is true, the Emperor, the Patriarch, and a multitude of Bishops came to the Florentine Councel. They agreed with thē in many things, •••hers they dissented; your Transubstantiation they utterly renounced. At that time Jesaphus their Patriarch suddenly died. Eugenius the Pope instantly urged a new election. They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople. See you not how well they agree? I have a book of yours, not of Jeremies, neither vvill a small thing make me believe it is his: for both the Grecian•, and particularly he, hath giver great approbation of our Churches, as we find it in his works published both in Greek and Latin.DVR. This is very false, for in the Florētine Councell the Emperour Paleolus, together with the Grecians and Armenians freely acknowledged the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and imbraced the Romane faith, yea and at this day they dissent from vs in few things, as Icremy the Patriarke of Constantinople hath plainly written. WHIT pag. 279. Why are they then of you accounted Schismatickes, or vvhy obey they not the Pope? why came they not to the Councell of Trent? the Pope by al meanes hath sought to haue thē subiect to him, but they stil cō temne him to his no small griefe. It is true, the Emperour, the Patriarke, and a multitude of Bishops came to the Florētine Coūcel. They agreed vvith thē in many things, •••hers they dissented; your Trāsubstantiation they vtterly renoūced. At that time Iesaphus their Patriarke suddenly died. Eugenius the Pope instantly vrged a nevv election. They denied to make any till they came to Constantinople. See you not hovv vvell they agree? I haue a booke of yours, not of Ieremies, neither vvill a small thing make me beleeue it is his: for both the Grecian•, and particularly he, hath giuer great approbation of our Churches, as vve find it in his vvorkes published both in Greeke and Latin.
qDVR. But you go against S. Paul, who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry, having broken their first saith; which is understood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages. WHIT. pag. 281. But how prove you that the Apostle understandeth by that faith, the vow of virginity? Nay the scope of the place showeth us the contrary, for he forbiddeth that younger widows, whom he persuadeth to marry, should be taken into that office; only such as were threescore years old, who may well abstain from marriages & follow this calling. Now if they be not of this age, he showeth what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many, they would wa• wa••on against Christ, and break their first faith, which is not their vow, but the profession of Christian religion, which such light buswives would easily co•••••, that they might enjoy their pleasures. And that this is his meaning the 1•. verse showeth: For certain are already turned back after Satan; showing what some had done, he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like. And as for the Fathers, if they did also expound these words, (as indeed they do not) yet the argument is very weak in divinity: The Fathers have thus expounded it, therefore the exposition is true.DVR. But you goe against S. Paul, who directly denounced damnation to those who will marry, hauing broken their first saith; which is vnderstood by all the Fathers of violating the vow of single life by incestuous marriages. WHIT. pag. 281. But how proue you that the Apostle vnderstādeth by that faith, the vow of virginity? Nay the scope of the place sheweth vs the contrary, for he forbiddeth that younger widdowes, whom he perswadeth to marry, should be taken into that office; only such as were threescore yeares old, who may well abstaine from marriages & follow this calling. Now if they be not of this age, he sheweth what may be feared of them namely lest that rather then they should not many, they would wa• wa••on against Christ, and breake their first faith, which is not their vow, but the profession of Christian religion, which such light buswiues would easily co•••••, that they might inioy their pleasures. And that this is his meaning the 1•. verse sheweth: For certeine are already turned backe after Satan; shewing what some had done, he admonisheth them to be wary lest others should do the like. And as for the Fathers, if they did also expound these words, (as indeed they doe not) yet the argument is very weake in diuinity: The Fathers haue thus expounded it, therefore the exposition is true.
. As for the Creeds you mention, we believe them in this point aswell as you. But tell us; this one Catholic Church what is it? If you restrain the name to the visible Church; first, you exclude both that in heaven of the Saints, and that which shall be of these which a•e unborn, and yet do belong to the Catholic Church: secondly you place faith in the sense, which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seen,
. As for that Catholic Church which we believe, it is the company of all the elect, even as many as have been from the beginning of the world, and shall be to the end; therefore it is called the Apostolic and holy Church, the communion of Saints. And to this communion belong no profane and wicked men, no hypocrites; because they have no fellowship with Christ. For the holy Church is the mystical body of Christ, of which body no member can at any time perish.
DVR. I beleeue only one Catholike Church, as the Apostles and Nicene Creed hath taught me, which conteineth both the elect, and as many as professe true religion. Now you teach me to beleeue two Churches. WHIT. pag. 286. This distinction taketh not away the vnity of the Church, no more then when the Church is said to be m•••an and u••• phant, vniuersall and particular. For the visible and ••uisible Church make but one: called visible, for the outward policy or order of it, which is seene and discerned; inuis•ble because Gods election and the electes faith is not to be seene with eies. And this distinction we haue, Esay. 1.9. Matth. 22.14. As for the Creedes you mention, we beleeue them in this point aswell as you. But tell vs; this one Catholike Church what is it? If you restraine the name to the visible Church; first, you exclude both that in heauen of the Saints, and that which shall be of these which a•e vnborne, and yet do belong to the Catholike Church: secondly you place faith in the sense, which the Apostle saith is of things which are not seene, Heb. 11.1. As for that Catholike Church which we beleeue, it is the company of all the elect, euen as many as haue been from the beginning of the world, and shall be to the end; therefore it is called the Apostolike and holy Church, the communion of Saints. And to this communion belong no prophane and wicked men, no hypocrites; because they haue no fellowship with Christ. For the holy Church is the mysticall body of Christ, of which body no member can at any time perish.
DVR. Nazianzene d•d not iudge inturiously nor writet• bitterly of Councels, as you suppose; but only a•fi•med that the fraud and malice of the heretikes of those times, hindred the assembling of lawfull Councels. WHIT. pag. 264. It seemeth you haue not read his Epistle, or but very sle•gtly, •eeing he therein plainly set•eth downe two reasons why he absented himselfe from the Councell, when he was called: f••st the weaknes of his body, and secondly, his iudgment concerning Councels: which was, that he thought such assemblies were to be auoided, because he had seene no good of any Synode, and that hereby occasions of euils were rather increased then taken away. DVR. Yea but he hath shened his contrary iudgment vvriting his Cledonius. WHIT. Nothing lesse: but only hee affirmeth that he vvould subscribe to the Apollinarian heretikes, if they could proue that they vvere receiued of the vvest Councell; vvhich hee knevv they could not.
3Nazianz. Epist. 4•. ad Procop. [Greek or Hebrew].Nazianz. Epist. 4•. ad Procop. 〈non-Latin alphabet〉.
