An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
But you tell us, why we do so much avoid the Fathers. I had rather you would tell us why you do so carefully avoid the Scriptures. For (say you) they that cannot away with set times of Fasting, must needs be offended with Basil, Naziancene, Leo, and Chrysostom, which have published excellent Sermons of Lent. Christ ordained no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospel,k Lent was appointed long after, and the manner of ⟨p. 134⟩observing it in those times, was not one & the same in all Churches. We both allow and use public and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions: as for your appointed, and yearly solemn fasts, we do with good reason reject them, because they are full of superstition, and injurious unto Christian liberty. Our judgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught:2 I find it not set down in any Commandment of the Lord, or his Apostles, what days we ought to fast, what not. Augustine then knew not these your set yearly ceremonies of fasting, not your Lenten fast, which hath a certain time and number of days prescribed. Further (you say) they that have set their souls to sale for gold, lust, excess, and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil, Chrysostom, Hierome, and Augustine, whose books of the profession of Monks are in every mans hands? what will you censure all to be covetous, lustful, gluttonous, or ambitious that are not Monks? back with that foot you were best, for fear of your head: for neither the Pope, nor his Cardinals and Bishops, hold it either necessary, or convenient for them to lay aside, their abundant wealth, continual pleasures, their dainty fare, their kingly honour, and thrust themselves into a Monastery; whosoever liveth after their fashion, cannot be well affected to Basil, nor any man that is holy.l For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excess, making themselves drudges unto their ambitions, banquets, and delights. And to conclude: in the ⟨p. 135⟩whole course of their lives, so behaving themselves, as becometh better sensual and voluptuous persons, proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures, then grave teachers out of Christs School. Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame upon you, and hath done continually and most deservedly?
But you tell vs, why we do so much anoid the Fathers. I had rather you would tell vs why you doe so carefully auoide the Scriptures. For (say you) they that cannot away with set times of Fasting, must needs be offended with Basil, Naziancene, Leo, and Chrysostome, which haue published excellent Sermons of Lent. Christ ordeined no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospell,k Lent was appointed long after, and the manner of ⟨p. 134⟩obseruing it in those times, was not one & the same in all Churches. We both allow and vse publike and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions: as for your appointed, and yearely solemne fasts, we do with good reason reiect them, because they are full of superstition, and iniurious vnto Christian liberty. Our iudgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught:2 I find it not set downe in any Commandement of the Lord, or his Apostles, what daies we ought to fast, what not. Augustine then knew not these your set yearely ceremonies of fasting, not your Lenten fast, which hath a certeine time and number of daies prescribed. Further (you say) they that haue set their soules to sale for gold, lust, excesse, and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil, Chrysostome, Hierome, and Augustine, whose bookes of the profession of Monkes are in euery mans hands? what will you censure all to be couetous, lustfull, gluttonous, or ambitious that are not Monkes? backe with that foot you were best, for feare of your head: for neither the Pope, nor his Cardinals and Bishops, hold it either necessary, or conuenient for them to lay aside, their abundant wealth, continuall pleasures, their dainty fare, their kingly honor, and thrust themselues into a Monasterie; whosoeuer liueth after their fashion, cannot be well affected to Basil, nor any man that is holy.l For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excesse, making themselues drudges vnto their ambitions, banquets, and delights. And to conclude: in the ⟨p. 135⟩whole course of their liues, so behauing themselues, as becommeth better sensuall and voluptuous persons, proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures, then graue teachers out of Christs Schoole. Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame vpon you, and hath done continually and most deseruedly?
kDVR. Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers, and knoweth not this to be safe? for the observation of Lent is most ancient and ordained by the Apostles. WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most ancient, but not instituted by the Apostles; for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made laws for let and certain fasts; and Tertullian when he was become a Montanist, writeth as much in his book wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus. Again, the Apostles never put any religion in choice and change of meats, Rom. 14.17. Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1.1•. and so ordained not Lean. Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast, both in their times, & in their kinds of meat; as Eusebius & Socrates record; which would never have bin if it had bin Apostolical, at least as Papists do affirm, who take in for a truth, that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees.DVR. Who hath but so much as saluted the Fathers, and knoweth not this to be salfe? for the obseruation of Lent is most auncient and ordained by the Apostles. WHIT. pag. 371. I deny it not to be most auncient, but not instituted by the Apostles; for Apollonius writeth that Montanus first made lawes for let and certaine fasts; and Tertullian when hee was become a Montanist, writeth as much in his booke wherein he defendeth the fasts of Montanus. Againe, the Apostles neuer put any religion in choise and change of meats, Rom. 14.17. Coll. 2 16. Tit. 1.1•. and so ordeined not Lene. Lastly the Churches of the Apostles differed much in this fast, both in their times, & in their kinds of meat; as Eusebius & •ocrates record; which would neuer haue bin if it had bin Apostolical, at least as Papists do affirme, who take in for a truth, that those Churches would faithfully persist in the Apostles decrees.
2August. Epist. 86.
lDVR. When you are overcome by the truth, you slander our lives, and speak evil of our persons. WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you, nor detract from you, the world hath understood long ago what manner of men you were. If you be grown better I should be glad of it. But I know men have judged otherwise of this order, and such as did not hate your Monastical life. For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did write thus to the Pope himself. There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men, for many are so deformed and out of order, that they are a great scandal to the people, and hurt much by their example. We think that all orders ought to be abolished.DVR. VVhen you are ouercome by the truth, you slander our liues, and speake euill of our persons. WHIT. pag. 377. I do not slander you, nor detract from you, the world hath vnderstood long agoe what manner of men you vvere. If you be grovvne better I should be glad of it. But I knovv men haue iudged othervvise of this order, and such as did not hate your Monasticall life. For the Romish Cardinals and Priors did vvrite thus to the Pope himself. There is another abuse amongst the orders of religious men, for many are so deformed and out of order, that they are a great scandale to the people, and hurt much by their example. VVe thinke that all orders ought to be abolished.
you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well enough known to be your own fault; your Prelates and Monks, whose goodly order and strait rule of severe discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirm that they excelled all others, who giving themselves wholly over to pleasures, (while the most took great pains and always did something whereby to live) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others must seem not to live, if that be to live which you have esteemed. But what need I answer you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which have not one Monk in your whole Church any thing resembling those of ancient time, neither do you observe the old manner of fasting? but you go on, and upbraid us with fouler matters. They that have brought a bondage upon mans will, which have taken away Christian funerals, which have burned Saints relics can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) have wronged no Saints, we have neither burned their relics, nor taken away their funerals:m only we could not suffer any profane superstition, injurious to the Majesty and glory of God; and for this we have the direction of God himself, being our pattern whom we follow, and Augustine also herein consenteth with us: But we have ⟨p. 136⟩captivated the will of man, and then (you say) how can we be well affected unto Augustine? well enough, why not? for (say you) he writ three books of free will. A most witless and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three books of freewill, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men have freewill. If that reason be currant, then this also: Augustine writ a book of two souls against the Manichees; also a book of lying; another of the quantity of the soul; ergo Augustine defendeth two souls in a man; ergo he praised lying; ergo he attributeth greatness & quantity to the soul. I pray you what difference is there? I grant Augustine writ those books you mention, but they overthrow not our opinion, who affirm that the will of man is in bondage: & if ever you had perused those books, you would never have affirmed it, nor once named the books in this matter.
you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault; your Prelates and Monkes, whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others, who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures, (while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others must seeme not to liue, if that be to liue which you haue esteemed. But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time, neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting? but you goe on, and vpbraide vs with fouler matters. They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will, which haue taken away Christian funerals, which haue burned Saints reliques can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) haue wronged no Saints, we haue neither burned their reliques, nor taken away their funerals:m only we could not suffer any prophane superstition, iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God; and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe, being our patterne whom we follow, and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs: But we haue ⟨p. 136⟩captiuated the will of man, and then (you say) how can we be well affected vnto Augustine? well inough, why not? for (say you) he writ three bookes of free will. A most witles and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three bookes of freewill, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill. If that reason be currant, then this also: Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees; also a booke of lying; another of the quantity of the soule; ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man; ergo he praised lying; ergo he attributeth greatnes & quantity to the soule. I pray you what difference is there? I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention, but they ouerthrow not our opinion, who affirme that the will of man is in bondage: & if euer you had perused those bookes, you would neuer haue affirmed it, nor once named the bookes in this matter.
mDVR. Therefore you have taken away the relics of the Saints, and the funerals of Christians, as superstitions and injurious to the majesty of God. WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so without judgement, that you cannot distinguish betwixt things and the superstitious use of them? It is not these not any comely burial we dislike, but Popish pompcions funerals and impious worshipping of relics.DVR. Therefore you haue taken away the reliques of the Saints, and the funerals of Christians, as superstitions and iniurious to the maiestie of God. WHIT. pag. 370. Are you so vvithout iudgement, that you cannot distinguish betvvixt things and the superstitious vse of them? It is not these not any comely buriall vve dislike, but Popish pompcions funerals and impious vvorshipping of reliques.
Augustine writ these books against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controversy, but of the cause of sin which proceeded from freewill, and he entitled those books of freewill, because in them he intendeth to show, that the original and beginning of sin is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might easily have learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.1 The discourse was undertaken for them that deny sin to have his original from the free action of our will, affirming, that from this would follow, that God himself the author of nature is culpable. And so proceedeth, utterly denying, that he had any purpose in those books, to speak of that will, which is made free by Gods grace. And whatsoever in these books passed his pen, which seemed to favour the Pelagians, then Patrons of freewill, as you are now, all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole work, and cleareth it from their cavils. Have we any cause to be offended with Augustine, which in this question is ⟨p. 137⟩not against us? And that you may plainly perceive, how indiscreetly you alleged these books of freewill, mark what he writeth of the will of man in those same books:n Hold thou fast (saith Augustine) this principal of piety, 3that no good thing happens unto thee, either when thou thinkest or understandest, or any way imaginest, which is not from God. And this was Augustine's constant opinion of freewill: after that being stirred by the Pelagians, he throughly understood the question, viz. that he judged it, to be utterly lost and gone.o Man (saith he) by abusing his freewill lost both it and himself.5
Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controuersie, but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill, and he entituled those bookes of freewill, because in them he intendeth to shew, that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.1 The discourse was vndertaken for them that deny sin to haue his originall from the free action of our will, affirming, that from this would follow, that God himselfe the author of nature is culpable. And so proceedeth, vtterly denying, that he had any purpose in those bookes, to speake of that will, which is made free by Gods grace. And whatsoeuer in these books passed his pen, which seemed to fauour the Pellegians, then Patrons of freewill, as you are now, all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole worke, and cleareth it from their cauils. Haue we any cause to be offended with Augustine, which in this question is ⟨p. 137⟩not against vs? And that you may plainly perceiue, how indiscreetly you alledged these bookes of freewill, marke what hee writeth of the will of man in those same bookes:n Hold thou fast (saith Augustine) this principall of piety, 3that no good thing happens vnto thee, either when thou thinkest or vnderstandest, or any way imaginest, which is not from God. And this was Augustines constant opinion of freewill: after that being stirred by the Pellagians, he throughly vnderstood the question, viz. that he iudged it, to be vtterly lost and gone.o Man (saith he) by abusing his freewill lost both it and himselfe.5
1Retract. lib. 1.1. q.
nDVR. Whereto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorance? all Catholics believe that the will of man, though free, is able to do nothing to merit heaven by, but by the grace of God. And you are ignorant that the freedom of will consisteth in this, that by no necessity it is carried to either part. WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time believed as much. But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace, and not made good by grace: so you teach that no new will is infused, but the natural is helped, and as it were unloosed by grace; which is not much from Pelagianism: for both of you defend that the liberty of will remaineth in mans corrupt nature, that it need not be given him from above, but only by the help of grace, to be drawn out of certain difficulties, in which the corruption of sin had left it. And as for my ignorance I confess it, and think it more learned then your knowledge; for if those who do things necessarily, do them not freely, then neither God nor the devil worketh not freely; for God worketh well, and the devil evil, necessarily. So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill: for not necessity, but force and compulsion taketh away the freedom of the will.DVR. Wherto tendeth this but to bewray your ignorāce? all Catholikes beleeue that the will of man, though free, is able to do nothing to merit heauen by, but by the grace of God. And you are ignorant that the freedome of will consisteth in this, that by no necessitie it is carried to either part. WHIT. pag. 382. Pelagians in former time beleeued as much. But as Pelagius affirmed that the will was only helped with grace, and not made good by grace: so you teach that no new will is infused, but the natural is helped, and as it were vnloosed by grace; which is not much from Pelagianisme: for both of you defend that the liberty of wil remaineth in mans corrupt nature, that it need not be giuen him from aboue, but only by the helpe of grace, to be drawne out of certeine difficulties, in which the corruption of sinne had left it. And as for my ignorance I confesse it, and thinke it more learned then your knowledge; for if those who do things necessarily, do them not freely, then neither God nor the diuel worketh not freely; for God worketh well, and the diuell euill, necessarily. So you see necessity is not opposed to freewill: for not necessity, but force and compulsion taketh away the freedome of the will.
3Delibere Arbit. 61.2. cap. 20.
oDVR. The meaning of the place is this, that man so lost his freewill, that be lost himself; yet so as no man in his right wits will deny, but he is a man still. WHIT. pag. 384. You grant as much as we desire: for as man lost himself, and yet remained a man, but not such as he was, good, just, holy, endued with perfection, but clean changed: so the free will of man was lost, not that no will remained, but that it was changed from good to evil; for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all; but no good will: as we affirm not, there is no man at all remaining, but no good man.
But yet further you urge Augustine against us, for (say you) they that make their captious devises, the rule of their faith, must not they be offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was ever accounted a book: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against us? in which he professeth himself to agree with Antiquity, unity, perpetual succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so ⟨p. 138⟩many heresies, hath attained unto the name Catholic by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdom and truth; else all the other bind us not; for they are of no value without that wisdom; but this wisdom and truth, though without these, is of it self to be preferred before all things: so saith Augustine, 1if the truth appear manifestly, so as it cannot be doubted of, it alone is more to be esteemed then pall those reasons, that keep me in the Catholic Church. Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it self alone, and sincere wisdom, then all those things you mention, Antiquity Unity, Succession, and we perceiving this truth and wisdom so manifestly in our Churches, that none, that will see the truth, can doubt whether we hold the truth or no; do willingly give you free liberty to brag, whilst you list, of antiquity, unity, & succession, without the truth. There is then, as you see, no cause, why we should be angry with Augustine, either now or before.
But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs, for (say you) they that make their captious deuises, the rule of their faith, must not they bee offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was euer accounted a booke: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against vs? in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity, vnity, perpetuall succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so ⟨p. 138⟩many heresies, hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdome and truth; else all the other bind vs not; for they are of no value without that wisdome; but this wisdome and truth, though without these, is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things: so saith Augustine, 1if the truth appeare manifestly, so as it cannot be doubted of, it alone is more to be esteemed then pall those reasons, that keepe me in the Catholike Church. Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it selfe alone, and sincere wisdome, then all those things you mention, Antiquity Vnity, Succession, and we perceiuing this truth and wisdome so manifestly in our Churches, that none, that will see the truth, can doubt whether we hold the truth or no; do willingly giue you free liberty to bragge, whilest you list, of antiquity, vnity, & succession, without the truth. There is then, as you see, no cause, why we should be angry with Augustine, either now or before.
1Cont. Fundam. cap. 4.
pDVR Augustine affirmeth, that these cannot be without the truth. WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine showeth the contrary: for if truth cannot be separated from these, he had spoken very unfitly, when he said, he preferred the truth before all these. If you can take or rightly challenge the possession of truth, in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity, Unity, & Succession.DVR Augustine affirmeth, that these cannot be without the truth. WHIT. pag. 387. Nay Augustine sheweth the contrarie: for if truth cannot be separated from these, he had spoken very vnfitly, when he said, he preferred the truth before all these. If you can take or rightly challenge the possessiō of truth, in the next place you may inquire of Antiquity, Vnity, & Succession.
But at length you leave Augustine, and call out Optatus, Bishop of Miletum; of whom you say, you desire to know, what our opinion is. I verily think he was a good Father, and very like unto Augustine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men have said in his commendation. But he disproved the Donatists by the communion of the Catholic Church. Why should he not? or what doth that concern us? Augustine also observed the same course, and it was a good motive, that the communion of the Church should be objected to the schismatical Donatists, which seditiously without cause, separated themselves from the Church. But we deny your Church to be Catholic, and therefore you cannot thus convince us, though Optatus might thereby confute the Donatists. It must first appear, that it is the ⟨p. 139⟩Church, before we can be convicted of schism. Theq Church of Rome was then the preserver of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and shined like a star in the sight of all other Churches: no marvel then though the most holy Fathers, esteemed much the reverence of this Church, & urged the heretics with the example of it,2 as a great prejudice unto them. Hence it is, that sometimes they allege the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome, thereby proving that the heresies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the most famous and honourable Church. But since that time the course of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith, to detestable falsehood. Restore us (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will never separate our selves from her: but of that Church you have nothing left, but the walls and old rubbish, yet still you brag of the name of the Catholic Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Christ are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the ancient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of stone, butr wooden, as you may see in Augustine's ⟨p. 140⟩Epistle to Boniface: and I grant the members of Christ, and hiss blood are received in the holy mysteries, but after a heavenly and spiritual manner,5 appropriate unto our most holy faith. As for your devouring of flesh, Optatus was not acquainted with it, and the ancient Church of Christ, not so much as ever dreamed of so great a monster.
But at length you leaue Augustine, and call out Optatus, Bishop of Miletum; of whom you say, you desire to know, what our opinion is. I verily thinke he was a good Father, and very like vnto Augustine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men haue said in his commendation. But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church. Why should he not? or what doth that cōcerne vs? Augustine also obserued the same course, and it was a good motiue, that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists, which seditiously without cause, separated themselues from the Church. But wee deny your Church to be Catholike, and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs, though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists. It must first appeare, that it is the ⟨p. 139⟩Church, before we can be conuicted of schisme. Theq Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches: no maruell then though the most holy Fathers, esteemed much the reuerence of this Church, & vrged the heretikes with the example of it,2 as a great preiudice vnto them. Hence it is, that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome, therby prouing that the heresies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the most famous and honorable Church. But since that time the course of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith, to detestable falshood. Restore vs (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will neuer separate our selues from her: but of that Church you haue nothing left, but the walles and old rubbish, yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Christ are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the auncient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of stone, butr woodden, as you may see in Augustines ⟨p. 140⟩Epistle to Boniface: and I graunt the members of Christ, and hiss blood are receiued in the holy mysteries, but after a heauenly and spiritual manner,5
qDVR. So indeed Calvin answereth, but it will not serve your turn: for Opratus proveth himself to be in the Catholic Church, because he joined himself to Saint Peters chair. WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chair? the external seat, or the succession of Bishops? you shall never prove it, and the contrary I cen easily object out of Optatus himself. Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow, and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholic judgement. With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship, by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawful ordination: Optatus then proveth that he was a Catholic, because he kept the Catholic confession and conjunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops. Finally his argument was good against the Donatists, who did separate themselves from the communion of the Catholic Church, while they consented not with these Churches, where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawful ordination of Bishops did ever flourish. But it is nothing to us and you.DVR. So indeed Caluin answereth, but it will not serue your turne: for Opratus proueth himself to be in the Catholike Church, because he ioyned himselfe to Saint Peters chaire. WHIT pag. 388. And what call you Peters chaire? the externall seate, or the succession of Bishops? you shall neuer proue it, and the contrary I cen easily obiect out of Optatus himselfe. Optatus calleth Syritius Bishop of Rome his fellow, and the companion of other Bishops who held a sound and Catholike iudgement. With all those Syricius agreed in one society and fellowship, by their letters sent one to another as witnesses of their consenting in doctrine and lawfull ordination: Optatus then proueth that he was a Catholike, because he kept the Catholike confession and coniunction with Syrrcius and other Bishops. Finally his argument was good against the Donatists, who did separate themselues from the communion of the Catholike Church, while they consented not with these Churches, where the doctrine of the Apostles and a lawfull ordination of Bishops did euer flourish. But it is nothing to vs and you.
2Irenaeus. August.
rDVR. What difference is there? the Donatists overthrew wooden Altany, and you Altars of stone. WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacrilege: not reproving the administration of the Sacrament, but the ordination of Bishops, which yet was lawful: we have cast down Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Mass and profane Idolatry. Is there no difference, think you?DVR. VVhat difference is there? the Donatists ouerthrew vvoodden Altany, and you Altars of stone. WHIT pag. 389. They troubled sacred tables by their sacriledge: not reprouing the administration of the Sacrament, but the ordination of Bishops, which yet was lawfull: we haue cast downe Altars wickedly erected for the wicked Masse and prophane Idolatry. Is there no difference, thinke you?
They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they favour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speak wisely; ast though we were so envious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.2 He with his Synod of Alexandria, humbly appealed unto the sentence of the Apostolic Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as au Poet, sometimes called upon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custom of praying to Saints had now taken deep root in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Jovinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintain them not. That* Ambrose should be careful, to commend and set forth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither do we wholly mislike Gregory, with whom surely you have more cause to be offended, then we. But whereas he said that Images were lay-mens books, he neither learned inx the school of the holy Ghost, nor foundy it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers that were before him; and thus at length, have you finished this long catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would fain know, that moved you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your self to think, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Calvin and their confederates, do write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi•• zen, do otherwhiles err in some questions in this or that book, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceived, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reject and condemn all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selves, being very often by plain authorities of the Fathers convinced, deny flatly that you are tied to the authority of any father, and from them you appeal to the judgment of the Church? Would you not think your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should infer, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?
They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they fauour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speake wisely; ast though we were so enuious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.2 He with his Synode of Alexandria, humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as au Poet, sometimes called vpon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Iouinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintaine them not. That* Ambrose should be carefull, to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory, with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended, then we. But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes, hee neither learned inx the schoole of the holy Ghost, nor foundy it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers yt were before him; and thus at length, haue you finished this longe catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would faine know, that moued you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your selfe to thinke, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Caluin and their confederates, doe write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostome, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi•• zen, do otherwiles erre in some questions in this or that booke, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceiued, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reiect and condemne all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selues, being verie often by plaine authorities of the Fathers cōuinced, deny flatly that you are tyed to the authority of any father, and from them you appeale to the iudgment of the Church? Would you not thinke your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should inferre, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?
tDVR. But do you think Hermits are worthy of any praise, whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony? WHIT. pag. 391. Grant we well approve of the old Hermits, yet may we think bad enough of your Monks, as we have done and profess it for just causes, seeing they differ both so much in manners and judgements. Antonius the Hermits grandfather was wont to say, that it was as dangerous for a Monk to go out of his hermitage, as for fishes to leave the water. If you praise Antony so much, why do you not follow him? why do you swarm in all cities and famous places, and do not rather live in some remote wilderness, as fishes swim in the Sea? so should you be more like to Antony, and free these parts from great damage.DVR. But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise, whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony? WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits, yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes, as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes, seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements. Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say, that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage, as for fishes to leaue the water. If you praise Antony so much, vvhy do you not follovv him? vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places, and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse, as fishes swim in the Sea? so should you be more like to Antony, and free these parts from great damage.
2Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2.
uDVR. Because he was a Poet, forgot he to be a Christian? or did he any thing in verse, which infinite & learned •athers have not done before in prose? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knoweth not that Poets were wont to weigh what the verse required, more then what piety called for, and to follow the elegance of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures? And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault with: yet see how foolish it is to avow poetical exornations for reasons in the controversies of religion. And if Prudentius followed so many Fathers, why name you not one of them▪ For 300. years after Christ there was no such custom in the Church, which you affirm so infinite a number of Fathers used: and it rose up in the Church but a little before Prudentius days; but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the word.DVR. Because he was a Poet, forgate hee to be a Christian? or did he any thing in verse, which infinit & learned •athers haue not done before in prose? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required, more then vvhat piety called for, and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures? And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith: yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion. And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers, vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church, vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed: and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies; but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord.
But this is the issue of your disputation, and the mark whereat all this your discourse aimeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a heinous and unheard-of wickedness.
But this is the issue of your disputation, and the marke whereat all this your discourse aymeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes.
Think not (Campian) our University to be so childish that they cannot discern the indifferency of our proceeding herein, from your unjust calumniation. The Fathers we esteem highly, we peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently study Divinity. By this means we increase our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraid to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, ⟨p. 143⟩Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholics opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, thrown in corners, which without much pains and weariness you could not collect, yet your fellows of late years have diligently sought out and published: Whilst they (say you) are to be sold at the Stationers, so long our mens books are in vain prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessity restrain, your books are such as it behooveth us to stop their passage, unless we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresy, and mens minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to prevent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious books be nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and unlearned men do suck poison of deadly error. Neither are we the first that have taken this course. You may remember in Queen Mary's time, that they proceeded by marshal law against all those, with whom any of our books were found. If this were in us a matter worthy of death, so that we were by and by drawn to punishment, as men guilty of high treason, and that without any jud•••al proceedings, small reason have you to look, that your books now, should have such free liberty, to be every where publicly sold. We take order, that the books of the holy Fathers, are brought unto us from every matte, we buy them, we have them in our private studies and public Library a wo• place them in open view, that they be known; nor only by face, but by daily familiarity. Where you affirm, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more ••gerly inveigh against those dreams, then the Fatherd before mentioned:
Thinke not (Campian) our Vniuersitie to be so childish that they cannot discerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein, from your vniust calumniation. The Fathers wee esteeme highly, wee peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently studie Diuinitie. By this meanes we encrease our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraide to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, ⟨p. 143⟩Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholikes opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, throwne in corners, which without much paines and wearines you could not collect, yet your fellowes of late yeares haue diligently sought out and published: Whilest they (say you) are to be solde at the Stationers, so long our mens bookes are in vaine prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessitie restraine, your bookes are such as it behooueth vs to stoppe their passage, vnlesse we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresie, and mens minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to preuent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious bookes bee nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and vnlearned men doe sucke poyson of deadly error. Neither are we the first that haue taken this course. You may remember in Queene Maries time, that they proceeded by marshall law against all those, with whom any of our bookes were found. If this were in vs a matter worthie of death, so that we were by and by drawne to punishment, as men guiltie of high treason, and that without any iud•••al proceedings, small reason haue you to looke, that your bookes now, should haue such free libertie, to bee euery where publikelie solde. We take order, that the bookes of the holy Fathers, are brought vnto vs from euery matte, we buie them, we haue them in our priuate studies and publike Liberarie a wo• place them in open view, that they be knowns; nor onely by face, but by dailie familiaricie. Where you affirme, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, doe more ••gerly inneigh against those dreames, then the Fatherd before mentioned:
you have ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an overplus to the things that went before. These your old soldiers have employed in this case, whatsoever, either reading or leisure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply unto them, and for all this have gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to perform that, wherein they have failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combat. I bewail (Campian) your rashness, and foolish hardiness, which will needs take upon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the undoubted loss of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherein you may make trial of your strength in the combat which you desire.
you haue ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an ouerplus to the things that went before. These your old souldiers haue imployed in this case, whatsoeuer, either reading or leysure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply vnto them, and for all this haue gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to performe that, wherein they haue failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combate. I bewaile (Campian) your rashnes, and foolish hardines, which will needs take vpon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the vndoubted losse of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherin you may make triall of your strength in the combate which you desire.
John Jewel (say you) challenged the Catholics, when you were a young student, calling upon and desiring the help of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. years after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himself able to perform: he had read over all the Fathers with special judgement and diligence; he saw how you deceived the ignorant, he had a care to preserve his countrymen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would have it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists unto this trial, viz. if they could confirm their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witness of Fathers and Councils, they should overcome: if they failed, they should confess themselves were vanquished. Certain renowned men (say you) living as Exiles as Lo•ane, entertain th• offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captain of these, he adventured himself hand to hand, in this combat, but how worthily performed he the condition? Jewel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certain Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, ⟨p. 145⟩and others of this rank, Fathers of worshipful antiquity: If all the ancient Fathers of the Church, be (as you brag) of your side, why should Harding turn his back so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most weighty cause wherein we demanded the judgement of antiquity, a company of upstart bastards, I know not from whence, whom no man before had saluted, seen or heard of, passing by of purpose, the known and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reverend antiquity you talk of? must we have these fellows digged out of their graves, to help you in your desperate cause? hear me (Campian) that which Jewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the trial of six hundred years antiquity, offering also to yield you the victory, if you brought one plain and manifest authority, out of any Father or Council; that same we do all profess and promise, and will surely perform it.
Iohn Iewel (say you) challenged the Catholikes, when you were a young student, calling vpon and desiring the helpe of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. yeares after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himselfe able to performe: he had read ouer all the Fathers with speciall iudgement and diligence; hee saw how you deceiued the ignorant, he had a care to preserue his countrimen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would haue it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists vnto this triall, viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels, they should ouercome: if they failed, they should confesse themselues were vanquished. Certeine renowmed men (say you) liuing as Exiles as Lo•ane, entertaine th• offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captaine of these, he aduentured himselfe hand to hand, in this combate, but how worthily performed he the condition? I•wel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certeine Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, ⟨p. 145⟩and others of this rancke, Fathers of worshipfull antiquitie: If all the auncient Fathers of the Church, be (as you bragge) of your side, why should Harding turne his backe so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most waighty cause wherin we demaunded the iudgement of antiquitie, a company of vpstart bastards, I know not fromwhence, whom no man before had saluted, seene or heard of, passing by of purpose, the knowne and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reuerend antiquity you talke of? must wee haue these fellowes digged out of their graues, to helpe you in your desperate cause? heare me (Campian) that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity, offering also to yeeld you the victory, if you brought one plaine and manifest authority, out of any Father or Councell; that same we do all professe and promise, and will surely performe it.
Twenty years are expired, and not one of you hitherto could perform the condition: if you persuade your self to have more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before have had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you have read nothing, you have no strength answerable to such an endeavour. The learned Humphrey did not tax Jewel, as if he had too liberally undertaken for the Fathers, or performed less then he promised; but only that he had yielded further unto you, then he needed, and called back the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the trial of Scriptures; for he knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beat down that their insolent and most false brag of antiquity, which prevailed with many. You say further that you ⟨p. 146⟩have conferred sometimes familiarly with To•y Matthew, and w••led him to answer freely, whether he that read the Fathers diligently, could be of that part which •e favoured. Although in private and familiar conference we say many things, which we would not have further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Matthew gave you such an answer, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his judgement and wisdom. We must not in all things believe the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend upon their word. Sometimes they have erred and been the occasion of errors unto others; yet may we read them, & by their truths be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to be the only man amongst us conversant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you have thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without fear come into the battle and fight with us. You are still telling us of armies, skirmishes, wars, camps and of your battles: but you should remember that the trial of war is common to both sides, and the issues of battles uncertain. The and of war lieth in the strength of arms, not in the stoutness of words.
Twentie yeares are expired, and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition: if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before haue had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you haue read nothing, you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor. The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel, as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers, or performed lesse then he promised; but only that he had yeelded further vnto you, then he needed, and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the triall of Scriptures; for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie, which preuailed with many. You say further that you ⟨p. 146⟩haue conferred sometimes familiarly with To•y Matthew, and w••led him to answere freely, whether hee that read the Fathers diligently, could bee of that part which •e fauoured. Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things, which we would not haue further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his iudgement and wisdome. Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend vpon their word. Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others; yet may we reade them, & by their truthes be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you haue thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies, skirmishes, warres, campes and of your battailes: but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides, and the issues of battailes vncerteine. The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes, not in the stoutnes of words.
IF ever that saying (a search the Scriptures) was loved, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst us; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conveyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they delivered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their pains and teachings, have they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole days and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of every Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselves, even until crooked old age crept upon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also upon the authority of their Ancestors, upon the common practise of the Church, upon the succession of Bishops, upon general Councils, upon Traditions of the Apostles, upon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, upon the decrees of Pre•••s, upon strange signs and marn••••us •••racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they urge, upon these they make ⟨p. 148⟩their habitation, to these Scriptures as unto the coatb armour of valiant soldiers, they worthily yield the highest and most honourable place, like noble captains, daily defending the Catholic Church, which is the city of God, by them kept in good repair, against all mischievous assaults of her enemy: the which thing maketh me the more to marvel, at that proud and foolish exception of the adversary, who like one that seeketh for water in the running river, complaineth for the scarcity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleged. So long he saith he is content to be judged by the Fathers as they swerve not from the Scriptures. Doth he speak as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most ancient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denis, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostom, S. Augustine, and S.
IF euer that saying (a search the Scriptures) was loued, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their paines and teachings, haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselues, euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors, vppon the common practise of the Church, vpon the succession of Bishops, vpon generall Councels, vpon Traditions of the Apostles, vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, vpon the decrees of Pre•••s, vpon strange signes and marn••••us •••racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they vrge, vpon these they make ⟨p. 148⟩their habitation, to these Scriptures as vnto the coateb armor of valiant souldiers, they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place, like noble captaines, daily desending the Catholike Church, which is the citie of God, by them kept in good repaire, against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie: the which thing maketh me the more to maruell, at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie, who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer, complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged. So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures. Doth he speake as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most auncient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S.
Gregory the great shall come forth well armed and upholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may* reign in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may reign in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so lovingly have builded up out of the Scriptures. Look what Scriptures they bring, we will bring the same; look what Scriptures they confer, we will confer the same; look what Scriptures they allege, we will allege the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a Gods name, and tell me plainly what you think. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? ô now I know, after thy own fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind entreat dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Universities, that most freshly flourish, there will join together a great number of such as will look into these controversies; not grossly, but with sharp ⟨p. 149⟩judgement, and will weigh these mens trifling answer not partially, but in equal balance; I will therefore, with a cheerful courage expect this day of battle, as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility, & force of Christs Church, against a monkest multitude of ragged Rogues.
Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may* raigne in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may raigne in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures. Looke what Scriptures they bring, wee will bring the same; looke what Scriptures they conferre, we will conferre the same; looke what Scriptures they alleadge, we will alleadge the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a Gods name, and tell me plainly what you thinke. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? ô now I know, after thy owne fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Vniuersities, that most freshly flourish, there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies; not grosely, but with sharpe ⟨p. 149⟩iudgement, and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially, but in equall ballance; I will therefore, with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell, as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility, & force of Christs Church, against a monkes• multitude of ragged Rogues.
*And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England, which those Fathers did had and defended.
I Cannot well conjecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may be, which you propound unto us. As touching the fathers we have given you your answer, and have plainly proved, that they afford no foundation for you to build your cause upon. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you judged it not safe for you to rest in them, unless you brought forth certain foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselves. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might show you esteemed their sayings as divine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would jump with you in that point, you now endeavour by certain foundations to fortify and strengthen the authority of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinews of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers have searched the Scriptures most diligently, they have heaped up store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they have attributed the chief place to these: therefore we ought to be content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sin we may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verily I profess you have laid these things down so faintly and loosely, that I can hardly discern their scope: for what, I pray you, can be spoken more loosely? The fathers have diligently laboured to understand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they have never erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will give you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch he withstood Peter to his face: what a kind of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your self find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and haply you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you go to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latin Church. What do they tell you? Augustine think that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thought Hierome that he spoke feignedly. If you approve the one, you must needs reject the other; for you cannot consent with both. Six hundred of this kind I could propound unto you.
I Cannot wel cōiecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may bee, which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere, and haue plainely prooued, that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpō. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them, vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselues. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would iumpe with you in that point, you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently, they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they haue attributed the chiefe place to these: therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sinne wee may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie, that I can hardlie discerne their scope: for what, I pray you, can bee spoken more loosely? The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will giue you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face: what a kinde of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your selfe find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you goe to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latine Church. What do they tell you? Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly. If you approue the one, you must needs reiect the other; for you cannot consent with both. Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you.
aDVR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reprove you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, who flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confess, I swerved not much from his sense. But think you the reason is of force? The ancient Fathers have diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they never erred in their interpretation. If i• hold in the Fathers, why not in others which do search the Scriptures as well as they? which if you once grant, you overturn your own cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet were there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, who either writ nothing at all, or their writings are perished; so that what they delivered, we possibly cannot know: what a vain thing is it then to brag of the consent of all, when you can hardly name twenty in the most flourishing age that ever was, whose books came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controversy can you bring against us, except it were in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gave to his Church, were men, such as might err, and who had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures.DVR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reproue you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, vvho flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confesse, I swarued not much from his sense. But thinke you the reason is of force? The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation. If i• hold in the Fathers, why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they? vvhich if you once grant, you ouerturne your owne cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, vvho either vvrit nothing at all, or their vvritings are perished; so that vvhat they deliuered, vve possibly cannot knovv: vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all, vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas, vvhose bookes came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs, except it vvere in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church, vvere men, such as might erre, and vvho had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures.
DVR. The meaning of the place is this, that man so lost his freewill, that be lost himselfe; yet so as no man in his right wits will deny, but he is a man still. WHIT. pag. 384. You graunt as much as we desire: for as man lost himselfe, and yet remained a man, but not such as he was, good, iust, holy, indued with perfection, but cleane changed: so the free will of man was lost, not that no wil remained, but that it was changed from good to euill; for we say not there is remaining no freewill at all; but no good wil: as we affirme not, there is no man at all remaining, but no good man.
5Enchir. 3.
appropriate vnto our most holy faith. As for your deuouring of flesh, Optatus was not acquainted with it, and the auncient Church of Christ, not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster.
sDVR. Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth upon the Altar. WHIT. pag. 390. I answer that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body, and the name of the thing is given to the sign,, as is usual in all Sacraments. For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heaven at the right hand of his Father, where it shall remain to the end of the world.DVR. Optatus writeth that the body of Christ dwelleth vpon the Altar. WHIT. pag. 390. I answere that the sacrament of the body of Christ is after a sort Christs body, and the name of the thing is giuen to the signe,, as is vsuall in all Sacraments. For the body of Christ is no where properly but in heauen at the right hand of his Father, where it shall remaine to the end of the world.
5Epist. 50.
▪
*DVR. It seemeth you have nothing to answer to Ambrose at all. WHIT. pag. 393. Have I answered nothing, when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church? was it not answer enough to show I allowed not the corrupt judgement of some Fathers? What gain you by this, if we profess freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time, who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamental points; whereas notorious corruption hath spread it self over your whole Church & consumed it, & the beginnings of corruptions in them, is grown to an height in you without hope of cure?DVR. It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all. WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing, when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church? was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers? What gaine you by this, if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time, who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points; whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church & cōsumed it, & the beginnings of corruptions in them, is growne to an height in you without hope of cure?
xDVR. Answer me, in what school did you learn to break down Images? not in the schools of Christians, but of Jews. WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the school of the holy Ghost, Deut 5.8. Josh. 24.23. where we are taught to worship one God with religious worship, and to cast out of the Church, to break and burn the Images of men, though never so holy. Moses beat the Calf to powder, & the holy Ghost commended Hez•••a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent, though it was set up by God• authority, when the Israelites abused it to super•••ion; how much more ought we to destroy profane Images & monuments of cursed idolatry? Epiphanius being taught in this school rent the veil which was hung up in the temple, having painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint. As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia, who took down & broke the Images of his time. I have learned this then not out of the schools of the Jews, •innike• and Idolaters, but out of the schools of Christians, which may not be polluted with Images.DVR. Answere me, in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images? not in the schooles of Christians, but of Iewes. WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost, Deut 5.8. Iosh. 24.23. where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship, and to cast out of the Church, to breake and burne the Images of men, though neuer so holy. Moses beate the Calfe to powder, & the holy Ghost commended Hez•••a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent, though it was set vp by God• authority, when the Israelits abused it to super•••ion; how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images & monuments of cursed idolatrie? Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple, hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint. As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia, who tooke downe & broke the Images of his time. I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of the Iewes, •innike• and Idolaters, but out of the schooles of Christians, which may not be polluted with Images.
yDVR You show your ignorance or impudency, when you know not, or deny that which is every whereto be read among the Fathers, as in Theodoret, Domasen, Augustine, Gregory Nissen. Metaphrastes, Athanasius and others. WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather show your rashness & desire to deceive; for they are partly faired, as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius, & partly not to the purpose by them I understand that Images were made, but they prove not that they were placed in the churches & worshipped. Your reason concludeth not, There were Images among the Christians before the times of Gregory: therefore they placed them in their churches to teach the people, and to be worshipped of them with holy worship.DVR You shevv your ignorance or impudency, vvhen you knovv not, or deny that vvhich is euery vvhereto be read among the Fathers, as in Theodoret, Domasen, Augustine, Gregory Nissen. Metaphrastes, Athanasius and others. WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather shew your rashnes & desire to deceiue; for they are partly faired, as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius, & partly not to the purpose by them I vnderstand that Images were made, but they proue not that they were placed in the churches & worshipped. Your reason concludeth not, There were Images among the Christiās before the times of Gregory: therfore they placed them in their churches to teach the people, and to be worshipped of them with holy worship.
bDVR. We confess every Father may err•, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did ever fall into any error, which was contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this were not a matter of faith, whether S. Paul lied, or whether he ingenuously reproved S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, then may it be lawful for us to dissemble, and after confirm it with a lye; both which are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissentions you stand not upon, you desire to see some general, when you grant every particular may err, vvill it not follow that all may? But see an example. In the Councell of Constantinople held under Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell under Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree was again condemned. One of these certainly must needs be deceived. Again, have you forgotten that Augustine with Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did think it necessary that the Eucharist should be given to Infants? which error continued a long time in the Church. Think you these are not points of faith?DVR. VVe confesse euery Father may err•, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error, which vvas contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith, vvhether S. Paul lyed, or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble, and after confirme it vvith a lye; both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissentions you stand not vpon, you desire to see some generall, vvhen you grant euery particular may erre, vvill it not follovv that all may? But see an example. In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree vvas againe condemned. One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued. Againe, haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants? vvhich error continued a long time in the Church. Thinke you these are not points of faith?
