A15057:185
A15057:185
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well enough known to be your own fault; your Prelates and Monks, whose goodly order and strait rule of severe discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirm that they excelled all others, who giving themselves wholly over to pleasures, (while the most took great pains and always did something whereby to live) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others must seem not to live, if that be to live which you have esteemed. But what need I answer you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which have not one Monk in your whole Church any thing resembling those of ancient time, neither do you observe the old manner of fasting? but you go on, and upbraid us with fouler matters. They that have brought a bondage upon mans will, which have taken away Christian funerals, which have burned Saints relics can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) have wronged no Saints, we have neither burned their relics, nor taken away their funerals:m only we could not suffer any profane superstition, injurious to the Majesty and glory of God; and for this we have the direction of God himself, being our pattern whom we follow, and Augustine also herein consenteth with us: But we have ⟨p. 136⟩captivated the will of man, and then (you say) how can we be well affected unto Augustine? well enough, why not? for (say you) he writ three books of free will. A most witless and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three books of freewill, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men have freewill. If that reason be currant, then this also: Augustine writ a book of two souls against the Manichees; also a book of lying; another of the quantity of the soul; ergo Augustine defendeth two souls in a man; ergo he praised lying; ergo he attributeth greatness & quantity to the soul. I pray you what difference is there? I grant Augustine writ those books you mention, but they overthrow not our opinion, who affirm that the will of man is in bondage: & if ever you had perused those books, you would never have affirmed it, nor once named the books in this matter.
you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault; your Prelates and Monkes, whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others, who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures, (while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others must seeme not to liue, if that be to liue which you haue esteemed. But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time, neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting? but you goe on, and vpbraide vs with fouler matters. They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will, which haue taken away Christian funerals, which haue burned Saints reliques can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) haue wronged no Saints, we haue neither burned their reliques, nor taken away their funerals:m only we could not suffer any prophane superstition, iniurious to the Maiestie and glorie of God; and for this we haue the direction of God himselfe, being our patterne whom we follow, and Augustine also herein consenteth with vs: But we haue ⟨p. 136⟩captiuated the will of man, and then (you say) how can we be well affected vnto Augustine? well inough, why not? for (say you) he writ three bookes of free will. A most witles and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three bookes of freewill, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men haue freewill. If that reason be currant, then this also: Augustine writ a booke of two soules against the Manichees; also a booke of lying; another of the quantity of the soule; ergo Augustine defendeth two soules in a man; ergo he praised lying; ergo he attributeth greatnes & quantity to the soule. I pray you what difference is there? I graunt Augustine writ those bookes you mention, but they ouerthrow not our opinion, who affirme that the will of man is in bondage: & if euer you had perused those bookes, you would neuer haue affirmed it, nor once named the bookes in this matter.
Augustine writ these books against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controversy, but of the cause of sin which proceeded from freewill, and he entitled those books of freewill, because in them he intendeth to show, that the original and beginning of sin is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might easily have learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.1 The discourse was undertaken for them that deny sin to have his original from the free action of our will, affirming, that from this would follow, that God himself the author of nature is culpable. And so proceedeth, utterly denying, that he had any purpose in those books, to speak of that will, which is made free by Gods grace. And whatsoever in these books passed his pen, which seemed to favour the Pelagians, then Patrons of freewill, as you are now, all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole work, and cleareth it from their cavils. Have we any cause to be offended with Augustine, which in this question is ⟨p. 137⟩not against us? And that you may plainly perceive, how indiscreetly you alleged these books of freewill, mark what he writeth of the will of man in those same books:n Hold thou fast (saith Augustine) this principal of piety, 3that no good thing happens unto thee, either when thou thinkest or understandest, or any way imaginest, which is not from God. And this was Augustine's constant opinion of freewill: after that being stirred by the Pelagians, he throughly understood the question, viz. that he judged it, to be utterly lost and gone.o Man (saith he) by abusing his freewill lost both it and himself.5
Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controuersie, but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill, and he entituled those bookes of freewill, because in them he intendeth to shew, that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.
But yet further you urge Augustine against us, for (say you) they that make their captious devises, the rule of their faith, must not they be offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was ever accounted a book: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against us? in which he professeth himself to agree with Antiquity, unity, perpetual succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so ⟨p. 138⟩many heresies, hath attained unto the name Catholic by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdom and truth; else all the other bind us not; for they are of no value without that wisdom; but this wisdom and truth, though without these, is of it self to be preferred before all things: so saith Augustine, 1if the truth appear manifestly, so as it cannot be doubted of, it alone is more to be esteemed then pall those reasons, that keep me in the Catholic Church. Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it self alone, and sincere wisdom, then all those things you mention, Antiquity Unity, Succession, and we perceiving this truth and wisdom so manifestly in our Churches, that none, that will see the truth, can doubt whether we hold the truth or no; do willingly give you free liberty to brag, whilst you list, of antiquity, unity, & succession, without the truth. There is then, as you see, no cause, why we should be angry with Augustine, either now or before.
But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs, for (say you) they that make their captious deuises, the rule of their faith, must not they bee offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was euer accounted a booke: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against vs? in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity, vnity, perpetuall succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so ⟨p. 138⟩many heresies, hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdome and truth; else all the other bind vs not; for they are of no value without that wisdome; but this wisdome and truth, though without these, is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things: so saith Augustine,
But at length you leave Augustine, and call out Optatus, Bishop of Miletum; of whom you say, you desire to know, what our opinion is. I verily think he was a good Father, and very like unto Augustine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men have said in his commendation. But he disproved the Donatists by the communion of the Catholic Church. Why should he not? or what doth that concern us? Augustine also observed the same course, and it was a good motive, that the communion of the Church should be objected to the schismatical Donatists, which seditiously without cause, separated themselves from the Church. But we deny your Church to be Catholic, and therefore you cannot thus convince us, though Optatus might thereby confute the Donatists. It must first appear, that it is the ⟨p. 139⟩Church, before we can be convicted of schism. Theq Church of Rome was then the preserver of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and shined like a star in the sight of all other Churches: no marvel then though the most holy Fathers, esteemed much the reverence of this Church, & urged the heretics with the example of it,2 as a great prejudice unto them. Hence it is, that sometimes they allege the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome, thereby proving that the heresies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the most famous and honourable Church. But since that time the course of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith, to detestable falsehood. Restore us (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will never separate our selves from her: but of that Church you have nothing left, but the walls and old rubbish, yet still you brag of the name of the Catholic Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Christ are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the ancient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of stone, but
They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they favour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speak wisely; ast though we were so envious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.2 He with his Synod of Alexandria, humbly appealed unto the sentence of the Apostolic Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as au Poet, sometimes called upon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custom of praying to Saints had now taken deep root in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Jovinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintain them not. That* Ambrose should be careful, to commend and set forth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither do we wholly mislike Gregory, with whom surely you have more cause to be offended, then we. But whereas he said that Images were lay-mens books, he neither learned inx the school of the holy Ghost, nor foundy it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers that were before him; and thus at length, have you finished this long catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would fain know, that moved you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your self to think, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Calvin and their confederates, do write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi zen, do otherwhiles err in some questions in this or that book, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceived, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reject and condemn all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selves, being very often by plain authorities of the Fathers convinced, deny flatly that you are tied to the authority of any father, and from them you appeal to the judgment of the Church? Would you not think your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should infer, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?
But this is the issue of your disputation, and the mark whereat all this your discourse aimeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a heinous and unheard-of wickedness.
But this is the issue of your disputation, and the marke whereat all this your discourse aymeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes.
Think not (Campian) our University to be so childish that they cannot discern the indifferency of our proceeding herein, from your unjust calumniation. The Fathers we esteem highly, we peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently study Divinity. By this means we increase our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraid to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, ⟨p. 143⟩Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholics opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, thrown in corners, which without much pains and weariness you could not collect, yet your fellows of late years have diligently sought out and published: Whilst they (say you) are to be sold at the Stationers, so long our mens books are in vain prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessity restrain, your books are such as it behooveth us to stop their passage, unless we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresy, and mens minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to prevent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious books be nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and unlearned men do suck poison of deadly error. Neither are we the first that have taken this course. You may remember in Queen Mary's time, that they proceeded by marshal law against all those, with whom any of our books were found. If this were in us a matter worthy of death, so that we were by and by drawn to punishment, as men guilty of high treason, and that without any jud•••al proceedings, small reason have you to look, that your books now, should have such free liberty, to be every where publicly sold. We take order, that the books of the holy Fathers, are brought unto us from every matte, we buy them, we have them in our private studies and public Library a wo• place them in open view, that they be known; nor only by face, but by daily familiarity. Where you affirm, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more ••gerly inveigh against those dreams, then the Fatherd before mentioned:
Thinke not (Campian) our Vniuersitie to be so childish that they cannot discerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein, from your vniust calumniation. The Fathers wee esteeme highly, wee peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently studie Diuinitie. By this meanes we encrease our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraide to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies,
you have ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an overplus to the things that went before. These your old soldiers have employed in this case, whatsoever, either reading or leisure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply unto them, and for all this have gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to perform that, wherein they have failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combat. I bewail (Campian) your rashness, and foolish hardiness, which will needs take upon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the undoubted loss of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherein you may make trial of your strength in the combat which you desire.
you haue ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an ouerplus to the things that went before. These your old souldiers haue imployed in this case, whatsoeuer, either reading or leysure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply vnto them, and for all this haue gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to performe that, wherein they haue failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combate. I bewaile (Campian) your rashnes, and foolish hardines, which will needs take vpon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the vndoubted losse of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherin you may make triall of your strength in the combate which you desire.
John Jewel (say you) challenged the Catholics, when you were a young student, calling upon and desiring the help of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. years after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himself able to perform: he had read over all the Fathers with special judgement and diligence; he saw how you deceived the ignorant, he had a care to preserve his countrymen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would have it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists unto this trial, viz. if they could confirm their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witness of Fathers and Councils, they should overcome: if they failed, they should confess themselves were vanquished. Certain renowned men (say you) living as Exiles as Lo•ane, entertain th• offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captain of these, he adventured himself hand to hand, in this combat, but how worthily performed he the condition? Jewel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certain Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, ⟨p. 145⟩and others of this rank, Fathers of worshipful antiquity: If all the ancient Fathers of the Church, be (as you brag) of your side, why should Harding turn his back so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most weighty cause wherein we demanded the judgement of antiquity, a company of upstart bastards, I know not from whence, whom no man before had saluted, seen or heard of, passing by of purpose, the known and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reverend antiquity you talk of? must we have these fellows digged out of their graves, to help you in your desperate cause? hear me (Campian) that which Jewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the trial of six hundred years antiquity, offering also to yield you the victory, if you brought one plain and manifest authority, out of any Father or Council; that same we do all profess and promise, and will surely perform it.
Iohn Iewel (say you) challenged the Catholikes, when you were a young student, calling vpon and desiring the helpe of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. yeares after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himselfe able to performe: he had read ouer all the Fathers with speciall iudgement and diligence; hee saw how you deceiued the ignorant, he had a care to preserue his countrimen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would haue it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists vnto this triall, viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels, they should ouercome: if they failed, they should confesse themselues were vanquished. Certeine renowmed men (say you) liuing as Exiles as Loane, entertaine th offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captaine of these, he aduentured himselfe hand to hand, in this combate, but how worthily performed he the condition? Iwel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certeine Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes,
Twenty years are expired, and not one of you hitherto could perform the condition: if you persuade your self to have more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before have had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you have read nothing, you have no strength answerable to such an endeavour. The learned Humphrey did not tax Jewel, as if he had too liberally undertaken for the Fathers, or performed less then he promised; but only that he had yielded further unto you, then he needed, and called back the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the trial of Scriptures; for he knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beat down that their insolent and most false brag of antiquity, which prevailed with many. You say further that you ⟨p. 146⟩have conferred sometimes familiarly with To•y Matthew, and w••led him to answer freely, whether he that read the Fathers diligently, could be of that part which •e favoured. Although in private and familiar conference we say many things, which we would not have further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Matthew gave you such an answer, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his judgement and wisdom. We must not in all things believe the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend upon their word. Sometimes they have erred and been the occasion of errors unto others; yet may we read them, & by their truths be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to be the only man amongst us conversant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you have thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without fear come into the battle and fight with us. You are still telling us of armies, skirmishes, wars, camps and of your battles: but you should remember that the trial of war is common to both sides, and the issues of battles uncertain. The and of war lieth in the strength of arms, not in the stoutness of words.
Twentie yeares are expired, and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition: if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before haue had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you haue read nothing, you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor. The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel, as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers, or performed lesse then he promised; but only that he had yeelded further vnto you, then he needed, and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the triall of Scriptures; for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie, which preuailed with many. You say further that you
IF ever that saying (a search the Scriptures) was loved, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst us; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conveyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they delivered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their pains and teachings, have they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole days and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of every Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselves, even until crooked old age crept upon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also upon the authority of their Ancestors, upon the common practise of the Church, upon the succession of Bishops, upon general Councils, upon Traditions of the Apostles, upon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, upon the decrees of Pre•••s, upon strange signs and marn••••us •••racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they urge, upon these they make ⟨p. 148⟩their habitation, to these Scriptures as unto the coatb armour of valiant soldiers, they worthily yield the highest and most honourable place, like noble captains, daily defending the Catholic Church, which is the city of God, by them kept in good repair, against all mischievous assaults of her enemy: the which thing maketh me the more to marvel, at that proud and foolish exception of the adversary, who like one that seeketh for water in the running river, complaineth for the scarcity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleged. So long he saith he is content to be judged by the Fathers as they swerve not from the Scriptures. Doth he speak as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most ancient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denis, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostom, S. Augustine, and S.
Gregory the great shall come forth well armed and upholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may* reign in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may reign in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so lovingly have builded up out of the Scriptures. Look what Scriptures they bring, we will bring the same; look what Scriptures they confer, we will confer the same; look what Scriptures they allege, we will allege the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a Gods name, and tell me plainly what you think. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? ô now I know, after thy own fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind entreat dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Universities, that most freshly flourish, there will join together a great number of such as will look into these controversies; not grossly, but with sharp ⟨p. 149⟩judgement, and will weigh these mens trifling answer not partially, but in equal balance; I will therefore, with a cheerful courage expect this day of battle, as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility, & force of Christs Church, against a monkest multitude of ragged Rogues.
Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may* raigne in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may raigne in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures. Looke what Scriptures they bring, wee will bring the same; looke what Scriptures they conferre, we will conferre the same; looke what Scriptures they alleadge, we will alleadge the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a Gods name, and tell me plainly what you thinke. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? ô now I know, after thy owne fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Vniuersities, that most freshly flourish, there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies; not grosely, but with sharpe
I Cannot well conjecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may be, which you propound unto us. As touching the fathers we have given you your answer, and have plainly proved, that they afford no foundation for you to build your cause upon. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you judged it not safe for you to rest in them, unless you brought forth certain foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselves. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might show you esteemed their sayings as divine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would jump with you in that point, you now endeavour by certain foundations to fortify and strengthen the authority of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinews of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers have searched the Scriptures most diligently, they have heaped up store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they have attributed the chief place to these: therefore we ought to be content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sin we may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verily I profess you have laid these things down so faintly and loosely, that I can hardly discern their scope: for what, I pray you, can be spoken more loosely? The fathers have diligently laboured to understand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they have never erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will give you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3 ⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch he withstood Peter to his face: what a kind of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your self find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and haply you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you go to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latin Church. What do they tell you? Augustine think that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thought Hierome that he spoke feignedly. If you approve the one, you must needs reject the other; for you cannot consent with both. Six hundred of this kind I could propound unto you.
I know how, saith Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. 1They ever sp••k• the tr•••, these as man have erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conversant in them, and spent themselves wholly in meditating upon them. From these you may discern how your accusation is most unjust, and our defence most equal and just. I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations: so you will confess they are men, extol them with all the praises you can to the very heavens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer us to do: then I doubt not but this fight would have a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his own voice, and commended to our diligent search, you fly from and abhor, as thieves do the gallows, ⟨p. 152⟩you abandon them out of mens sight, and yet you have never done searching; for you compass sea and land to find out old traditions and customs long ago dead and buried, mens inventions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, feigned and forged books, diriges, scraps; dreams and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, cas Christ hath commanded,3 and the ancient fathers have done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would do that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, unwritten verities, the Popes Canons, we would willingly set up our rest there; but when we are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, do not much blame us, if we so far, as you speak, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot justly blame that in us which you confess is commendable in them.d For Christ commanded us aswell as them, to search
But at length you leaue Augustine, and call out Optatus, Bishop of Miletum; of whom you say, you desire to know, what our opinion is. I verily thinke he was a good Father, and very like vnto Augustine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men haue said in his commendation. But he disproued the Donatists by the communion of the Catholike Church. Why should he not? or what doth that cōcerne vs? Augustine also obserued the same course, and it was a good motiue, that the communion of the Church should be obiected to the schismaticall Donatists, which seditiously without cause, separated themselues from the Church. But wee deny your Church to be Catholike, and therefore you cannot thus conuince vs, though Optatus might therby confute the Donatists. It must first appeare, that it is the ⟨p. 139⟩Church, before we can be conuicted of schisme. Theq Church of Rome was then the preseruer of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and shined like a starre in the sight of all other Churches: no maruell then though the most holy Fathers, esteemed much the reuerence of this Church, & vrged the heretikes with the example of it,2 as a great preiudice vnto them. Hence it is, that sometimes they alledge the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome, therby prouing that the heresies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the most famous and honorable Church. But since that time the course of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith, to detestable falshood. Restore vs (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will neuer separate our selues from her: but of that Church you haue nothing left, but the walles and old rubbish, yet still you bragge of the name of the Catholike Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Christ are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the auncient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of stone, butr woodden, as you may see in Augustines ⟨p. 140⟩Epistle to Boniface: and I graunt the members of Christ, and hiss blood are receiued in the holy mysteries, but after a heauenly and spiritual manner,5 appropriate vnto our most holy faith. As for your deuouring of flesh, Optatus was not acquainted with it, and the auncient Church of Christ, not so much as euer dreamed of so great a monster.
They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they fauour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speake wisely; ast though we were so enuious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.2 He with his Synode of Alexandria, humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as au Poet, sometimes called vpon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Iouinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintaine them not. That* Ambrose should be carefull, to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory, with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended, then we. But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes, hee neither learned inx the schoole of the holy Ghost, nor foundy it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers yt were before him; and thus at length, haue you finished this longe catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would faine know, that moued you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your selfe to thinke, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Caluin and their confederates, doe write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostome, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi•• zen, do otherwiles erre in some questions in this or that booke, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceiued, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reiect and condemne all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selues, being verie often by plaine authorities of the Fathers cōuinced, deny flatly that you are tyed to the authority of any father, and from them you appeale to the iudgment of the Church? Would you not thinke your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should inferre, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?
IF euer that saying (a search the Scriptures) was loued, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their paines and teachings, haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselues, euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors, vppon the common practise of the Church, vpon the succession of Bishops, vpon generall Councels, vpon Traditions of the Apostles, vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, vpon the decrees of Pre•••s, vpon strange signes and marn••••us •••racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they vrge, vpon these they make ⟨p. 148⟩their habitation, to these Scriptures as vnto the coateb armor of valiant souldiers, they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place, like noble captaines, daily desending the Catholike Church, which is the citie of God, by them kept in good repaire, against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie: the which thing maketh me the more to maruell, at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie, who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer, complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged. So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures. Doth he speake as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most auncient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S.
I Cannot wel cōiecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may bee, which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere, and haue plainely prooued, that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpō. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them, vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselues. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would iumpe with you in that point, you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently, they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they haue attributed the chiefe place to these: therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sinne wee may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie, that I can hardlie discerne their scope: for what, I pray you, can bee spoken more loosely? The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will giue you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3 ⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face: what a kinde of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your selfe find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you goe to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latine Church. What do they tell you? Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly. If you approue the one, you must needs reiect the other; for you cannot consent with both. Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you.
I know how, sayth Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. 1They euer sp••k• the tr•••, these as man haue erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conuersant in them, and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them. From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust, and our defence most equall and iust. I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations: so you will confesse they are men, extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer vs to do: then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice, and commended to our diligent search, you flie from and abhorre, as theeues doe the gallowes, ⟨p. 152⟩you abandon them out of mens sight, and yet you haue neuer done searching; for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried, mens inuentions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, fained and forged bookes, diriges, scrappes; dreames and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, cas Christ hath commaunded,3 and the ancient fathers haue done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would doe that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, vnwritten verities, the Popes Canons, wee would willingly set vp our rest there; but when wee are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, doe not much blame vs, if we so farre, as you speake, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot iustly blame that in vs which you confesse is commendable in them.d For Christ commanded vs aswell as them, to search ⟨p. 159⟩the Scriptures. That therefore which is inioyned vs both, to search, it ought to be the purpose of both to finde out. And doe you iudge it equall,e that if they haue erred in searching, wee should treade in their steps, and reiect the trueth wee haue found out? For wheresoeuer they find out the truth they sought after, wee receiue it and consent with them.