An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
The ancient Histories of former times, do plainly discover the true form of the Primitive Church, thither do I appeal: as for the ancient Historiographers,1 whose authority all the adversaries do sometime usurp, these are well nigh all of them. Eusebius, Damasus, Hierome, Ruffinus, Orosas, Socrates, Sozomenus, Theodoretus, Cassiodorus, Gregory of Tours, Oswaldus, Regino, Marianus, Sigibertus, Sonoras, Cedrenus, Nicephorus. ⟨p. 167⟩What song, I pray you, do these men sing? a song in praise of Catholics of their prosperous proceedings, of their interchangeable alterations, & what enemies they had; yea moreover (which I would have you well to mark) these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake,2 to wit, Philip Melanchthon, Pantalion, Functius, and the Magdeburgeans, when they went about, to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiastical History, they should have had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. years after Christ, except they had gathered together the acts of those men, that take our part, and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church. Consider also the particular Historiographers of some special countries,3 who bended themselves curiously and busily to search out the special affairs of every such people as they undertook to write of. These as men desirous by all means they possibly could to enrich and beautify that work they had in hand, omitted not so much as banqueting feasts, or long sleeved coats, or strange hafts of daggers, or gilded spurs, and such like trifles, but they made mention thereof, if it had any smack of novelty. These men doubtless, if there had been any alteration in religion, or any digression, from their former faith, which was in the Primitive Church, that had come to their ears, many of them would have recorded it: if not many, yet some few of them at the least; if not some few, yet some one or other doubtless would have made mention thereof.
But no body at all, neither friend nor foe, made any muttering, or gave any inkling of any such matter. As for example sake, the adversaries grant (because they cannot otherwise choose) that the Church of Rome, was once an holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, even then when it deserved these commendations of
S. Paul, Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. I cease not to remember you in my prayers.
THe auncient Histories of former times, do plainly discouer the true forme of the Primitiue Church, thither doe I appeale: as for the auncient Historiographers,1 whose authority all the aduersaries doe sometime vsurpe, these are well nigh all of them. Eusebius, Damasus, Hierome, Ruffinus, Orosas, Socrates, Sozomenus, Theodoretus, Cassiodorus, Gregory of Tours, Oswaldus, Regino, Marianus, Sigibertus, Sonoras, Cedrenus, Nicephorus. ⟨p. 167⟩What song, I pray you, doe these men sing? a song in praise of Catholikes of their prosperous proceedings, of their interchangeable alterations, & what enemies they had; yea moreouer (which I would haue you wel to mark) these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake,2 to wit, Philip Melangthon, Pantalion, Functius, and the Magdeburgeans, when they went about, to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiasticall History, they should haue had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. yeares after Christ, except they had gathered together the acts of those men, that take our part, and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church. Consider also the particular Historiographers of some speciall countries,3 who bended themselues curiously and busily to search out the speciall affaires of euery such people as they vndertooke to write of. These as men desirous by all meanes they possibly could to enrich and beautifie that worke they had in hand, omitted not so much as banquetting feasts, or long sleeued coates, or strange haftes of daggers, or gilded spurres, and such like trifles, but they made mention thereof, if it had any smacke of noueltie. These men doubtlesse, if there had been any alteration in religion, or any digression, from their former faith, which was in the Primitiue Church, that had come to their eares, many of thē would haue recorded it: if not many, yet some few of them at the least; if not some few, yet some one or other doubtlesse would haue made mention thereof.* But no body at all, neither friend nor foe, made any muttering, or gaue any inkling of any such matter. As for example sake, the aduersaries grant (because they cannot otherwise chuse) that the Church of Rome, was once an holy Catholike and Apostolike Church, euen then when it deserued these commendations ofa S. Paul, Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. I cease not to remember you in my prayers.
1Generals Historici.Generales Historici.
2Hareticorū Chronica & Historica. Anno Dom. 1500.Hareticorū Chronica & Historica. Anno Dom. 1500.
3Historici certarum Gentium.
*This is false, for many have made mention of the corruption of the Church.This is false, for many haue made mention of the corruption of the Church.
Ib know that when I come ⟨p. 168⟩unto you; I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of cChrist. All the Churches of Christ do greet you, for your obedience is spread abroad in all places. Then also, when S. Paul having freed liberty of the prison, there preached the Gospel abroad. Then also, when S. Peter governed the Church, gathered together long ago in that City of Rome, which he called by thee name of Babylon.* The when that same S. fClement, whom theg Apostle so highly commendeth, was chief head of that Church: then also, whenh Heathen Emperors, as Domitian, Nero, Trajan, and Antonius most cruelly murdered the Bishops of Rome. Then also,* Calvin himself doth witness,* when Damasus, Syticius, Anastasius, and Innocentius were governors of the Sea Apostolic. For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swerved, especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospel. At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul? when fainted faith which before so flourished? In what age, under what Pole, upon what occasion, by whose compulsion, by whose power, hath a new strange Religion invaded, not only that city of Rome, but the whole world besides? what outcries, what rufflings, what weeping and wailing hath it caused? were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleep, while Rome, I say, Rome brought forth new Sacraments, new sacrifice, and new doctrine of religion? There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greek, neither abroad nor at home, which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his books of so notable a matter, though it had been never so slenderly. Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough, if the History which is a faithful witness of antiquity, and the life of memory, do in many and sundry places copiously entreat and spoke of that faith which we profess: and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirm, that, that faith which the adversaries ⟨p. 169⟩do thrust upon us, was […] allowed in the Catholic Church; then are all the Historiographers on our part, and the invasions of the adversaries are not frivolous, and such as can make no man afraid, except it be first granted, that all Christians throughout every age, have fallen to gross infidelity and consequently into the deep pit of hell;
Ib know that when I come ⟨p. 168⟩vnto you; I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of cChrist. All the Churches of Christ do greet you, for your obedience is spread abroad in all places. Then also, when S. Paul hauing freed liberty of the prison, there preached the Gospell abroad. Then also, when S. Peter gouerned the Church, gathered together long agoe in that Citie of Rome, which hee called by thee name of Babylon.* The whē that same S. fClement, whom theg Apostle so highly commendeth, was chiefe head of that Church: then also, whenh Heathen Emperours, as Domitian, Nero, Traiane, and Antonius most cruelly murthered the Bishops of Rome. Then also,* Caluin himselfe doth witnes,* when Damasus, Syticius, Anastasius, and Innocentius were gouernours of the Sea Apostolike. For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swarued, especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospell. At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul? when fainted faith which before so flourished? In what age, vnder what Pole, vpon what occasion, by whose compulsion, by whose power, hath a new strange Religion inuaded, not only that citie of Rome, but the whole world besides? what outcries, what rufflings, what weeping and wailing hath it caused? were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleepe, while Rome, I say, Rome brought forth new Sacraments, new sacrifice, and new doctrine of religion? There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke, neither abroad nor at home, which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter, though it had been neuer so slenderly. Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough, if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity, and the life of memory, do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe: and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme, that, that faith which the aduersaries
Now you call us to History, the witness of times and reporter of Antiquity: and all that have taken pains in publishing the Ecclesiastical History, their names you set down, and like dumb shows, you carry them in great pomp: as though, Campian, the particular naming of all that have published any History were sufficient for the remembrance, and searching out the monuments of Antiquity. What insolent new kind of Logic is this, to reckon up the Historians of the whole world, and of particular countries, and then conclude they are your own? Have you of late from above procured this privilege, that whatsoever you lay your hands upon, shall by and by become yours? we have long since perused the ancient Chronicles, wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set ⟨p. 170⟩down, and we find not that they favour you more then us. If in them be some things against us, many moe, and more weighty testimonies they have against you, and such as give you a deadly wound; else would we never have collected the Histories of the ancient Church so accurately, and diligently, penning them exactly, and distinguishing the several ages and times; neither would we have published them in the world, if they were so contrary unto us, as you surmise: for who have taken more pains to find out, or more faithfully restored the Ecclesiastical Histories, then our men, without whose labours many monuments of Antiquity had been buried in darkness? We therefore will never deny this trial of Antiquity, and seeing you appeal to ancient Histories, we condescend; yet with this caution, that we be not tied to those things which were apparently blemishes in the ancient Church. Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a narration of things done, do not so much teach us what ought to be done, but have an eye to that which was then performed, and by that means set down many things worthy of reprehension, rather than imitation: and for the most part it happens, that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ; and ever the later writer the more corrupt. But here you exclaim that we seek evasions, and very perversely you slander us, that because we do not allow all, we refuse all. They that reform what is amiss, do not blame the rest that is not faulty.
NOw you call vs to Historie, the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity: and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie, their names you set downe, and like dumbe showes, you carry them in great pompe: as though, Campian, the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance, and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie. What insolent new kind of Logicke is this, to recken vp the Historians of the whole world, and of particular countries, and then conclude they are your owne? Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge, that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon, shall by and by become yours? we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles, wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set ⟨p. 170⟩downe, and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs, many moe, and more waightie testimonies they haue against you, and such as giue you a deadlie wound; else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie, and diligentlie, penning them exactlie, and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times; neither would wee haue published them in the world, if they were so contrarie vnto vs, as you surmise: for who haue taken more paines to finde out, or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories, then our men, without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse? We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie, and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories, wee condiscend; yet with this caution, that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church. Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done, doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done, but haue an eye to that which was then performed, and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension, rather than imitation: and for the most part it happens, that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ; and euer the later writer the more corrupt. But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions, and very peruersly you slaunder vs, that because wee doe not allowe all, wee refuse all. They that reforme what is amisse, doe not blame the rest that is not faultie.
Strive while you list (Campian) and cry out of mazes and labyrinths, at length will you, nill you, by the cares must we bring you to the judgement of the Scriptures.
Striue while you list (Campian) and crie out of mazes and labyrinths, at length will you, nill you, by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures.
And herein, Campian, you very mucha triumph, when you demand at what time, under what Bishop, by what way, and proceeding, was a new religion spread over the City of Rome, and the whole world: and do not doubt, but that if any change and declining had been, many writers would have made mention of it, or divers, or one at the least. It is hard for us to answer at what time, neither is it necessary to set down the very instant of time. All things were not at once overturned in the Church of Rome, sin and wickedness came to his height by degrees, and by leisure to ripeness; the hairs of our head are not all grey of a sudden, neither doth any thing suddenly come to his maturity, and the growth of every thing appeareth long after. This is manifest in such things, as having small beginning go on forward unto a greater quantity, until they come to perfection; you cannot deny, but there was a great alteration of Religion, in the Church of ⟨p. 172⟩bJerusalem, what then? was the change all at once? show us then how those novelties entered into the Church, what time, what way, who was Bishop, and by what proceedings it increased. You Romanis• condemn the Greek Church, and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours.c Declare now unto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church, which you demand for your own. Point out the time, the Bishop, and the growth of their Apostasy. As the alteration of these Churches was then easy to be discerned when it first began, though now it be very hard to find out those circumstances: so we see plainly a great change in the Church of Rome, yet can we not certainly pronounce the several times of their several declining. Many are manifest, which were too long to rehearse, and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons. The case was with the Church of Rome, as we see it is in a great building: for as a house which is strongly built at the first, continueth so of it self a long time after sound and whole; but if for a time it be left and neglected, it beginneth in some place to decay, and to be full of chinks, which in time wax big by degrees, till they threaten ruin to the posts and roofs themselves, and at length by this means, the whole building is ruinated and falleth down:
And herein, Campian, you very mucha triumph, when you demaund at what time, vnder what Bishop, by what way, and proceeding, was a new religion spread ouer the Citie of Rome, and the whole world: and doe not doubt, but that if any change and declining had been, many writers would haue made mention of it, or diuers, or one at the least. It is hard for vs to answere at what time, neither is it necessarie to set downe the very instant of time. All things were not at once ouerturned in the Church of Rome, sinne and wickednes came to his height by degrees, and by leisure to ripenes; the haires of our head are not all gray of a suddaine, neither doth any thing suddainely come to his maturitie, and the growth of euery thing appeareth long after. This is manifest in such things, as hauing small beginning goe on forward vnto a greater quantitie, vntill they come to perfection; you cannot deny, but there was a great alteration of Religion, in the Church of ⟨p. 172⟩bIerusalem, what then? was the change all at once? shew vs then how those nouelties entred into the Church, what time, what way, who was Bishop, and by what proceedings it increased. You Romanis• condemne the Greeke Church, and yet it is nothing so corrupt as yours.c Declare now vnto me those circumstances of time in the declining of this Church, which you demaund for your owne. Poynt out the time, the Bishop, and the growth of their Apostasie. As the alteration of these Churches was then easie to bee discerned when it first beganne, though now it be very hard to finde out those circumstances: so we see plainely a great change in the Church of Rome, yet can we not certainely pronounce the seuerall times of their seuerall declining. Many are manifest, which were too long to rehearse, and those are distinguished according to their times and seasons. The case was with the Church of Rome, as we see it is in a great building: for as a house which is strongly built at the first, continueth so of it selfe a long time after sound and whole; but if for a time it be left and neglected, it beginneth in some place to decay, and to bee full of chinkes, which in time waxe big by degrees, till they threaten ruine to the posts and roofes themselues, and at length by this meanes, the whole building is ruinated and falleth downe:
aDVR. And why may not Campian trumph, for what impudency is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies; and yet you cannot tell, when one of them ever began, in what Popes time, by what means, how it increased in the Church? WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons, not railings. But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt, because we cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt? but being so manifest as it is, what need we search the Histories to show the beginning? what I pray? if you see a man sick of the pestilence, a city corrupt with riot and wickedness, a house ruinous and ready to fall, a ship sinking; will you deny all these, unless one can tell you the time when he began to be sick, the means how the city grew corrupt, who was ownet and in what year the house grew ruinous, and in what da•e the ship began first to leak? And what is the force of your reason and demand other then this? But, do not your own Histories tell when and by whom innovations and corruptions entered? see a few of them. He that first usurped authority over other Churches was Pope Victor, after him Zozimus, Boniface, Celestive, and the• successura. Pope Syricius first forbade Priests marriages. The Manichees first denied the Cup to the people. The Nicene Councell first ordained worshipping of Images. Pope Nicolas the second, first taught: the body of Christ must carnally be handled, broken and eaten. Pope Jnnocent the third, first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation. Boniface the third, that the Pope was the head of all Churches. Gregory the great taught Purgatory first for a certain truth. The Florentine Councell, that the Pope was above Councels. Jnnocent the third, brought in auricular confession. If these were not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more.DVR. And vvhy may not Campian trumph, for what impudencie is this to cry out that the Church of Rome is full of innumerable heresies; and yet you cannot tell, vvhen one of them euer began, in vvhat Popes time, by vvhat meanes, hovv it increased in the Church? WHIT. pag. 477. A good cause would be defended by reasons, not raylings. But doth it follow that the Church of Rome is not corrupt, because wee cannot tell the moment of time when it began to be corrupt? but being so manifest as it is, what need we search the Histories to shew the beginning? what I pray? if you see a man sicke of the pestilence, a citie corrupt with riote and wickednesse, a house ruinous and readie to fall, a shippe sincking; will you deny all these, vnlesse one can tell you the time when he began to be sicke, the meanes how the city grew corrupt, who vvas ovvnet and in vvhat yeare the house grevv ruinous, and in vvhat da•e the shippe began first to leake? And vvhat is the force of your reason and demaund other then this? But, doe not your owne Histories tell vvhen and by vvhom innouations and corruptions entred? see a fevv of them. Hee that first vsurped authoritie ouer other Churches vvas Pope Victor, after him Zozimus, Boniface, Celestiue, and the successura. Pope Syricius first fobad Priests marriages. The Manichies first denied the Cup to the people. The Nicene Councell first ordained vvorshipping of Images. Pope Nicolas the second, first taught: the bodie of Christ must carnally be handled, broken and eaten. Pope Jnnocent the third, first established the doctrine of Transubstantiation. Boniface the third, that the Pope vvas the head of all Churches. Gregorie the great taught Purgatorie first for a certeine truth. The Florentine Councell, that the Pope was aboue Councels. Jnnocent the third, brought in auricular confession. If these vvere not sufficient I could produce sire hundred more.
so the Roman Church in process of ⟨p. 173⟩time declined from her ancient estate, and by the infection of error and superstition daily prevailing, at length she lost the very spirit and life of the Church. Eusebius reporteth, that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus, had written of the Church, that she was, whilst the Apostles lived, a chaste and undefiled Virgin. For then they that would have altered the holy pattern of sound doctrine, did it faintly and fearfully, not daring to creep out of their holes.d But after that the Apostles departed unto the heavenly mansions, and none of that age left, that had been hearers of Christ himself, neither any of the Apostles living, then began abominable error to gather strength, and openly in the Churches to advance it self. What more pregnant testimony of antiquity and history can you desire? Whilst the Apostles lived the Church was a Virgin, as soon as they were dead, she became corrupted, and the mischief no doubt in time increased and spread it self ⟨p. 174⟩abroad. But I wonder that thise Polycrates, was either so ignorant or forgetful that he considered not this, that the Pope of Rome was left unto the Church, in the Apostles rooms, to defend this Virgin, and preserve her chastity. Why calleth he the Church a Virgin? Because the Apostles were living, by whom her audacious adversaries were always discouraged and discomforted. But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope, or else she needs him not at all. But Polycrates, although there were none left to preserve the purity of this Virgin, bewaileth her want as you see, which surely had been unadvisedly done, if his opinion had been, that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome. The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline, and inclined to the apostasy, which the Apostle did foretell should be, and we see now fulfilled. Then those Wolves of whom the Apostle did forewarn,3 came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flock. Then those Antichrists, whereof John affirmeth some were in his time,4 began to undertake the work, which after was perfected and accomplished: I might here show you many evident tokens of your Churches Apostasy, out of these your own Chronicles: they are no secrets, but such as any man that will read and observe, may easily discern.
so the Romane Church in processe of ⟨p. 173⟩time declined from her auncient estate, and by the infection of error and superstition daily preuailing, at length shee lost the very spirit and life of the Church. Eusebius reporteth, that one Polycrates Bishop of Ephesus, had written of the Church, that she was, whilest the Apostles liued, a chaste and vndefiled Virgin. For then they that would haue altered the holy paterne of sound doctrine, did it faintly and fearefully, not daring to creepe out of their holes.d But after that the Apostles departed vnto the heauenly mansions, and none of that age left, that had been hearers of Christ himselfe, neither any of the Apostles liuing, then began abhominable error to gather strength, and openly in the Churches to aduaunce it selfe. What more pregnant testimonie of antiquitie and historie can you desire? Whilest the Apostles liued the Church was a Virgin, assoone as they were dead, she became corrupted, and the mischiefe no doubt in time increased and spread it selfe ⟨p. 174⟩abroade. But I woonder that thise Polycrates, was either so ignorant or forgetfull that hee considered not this, that the Pope of Rome was left vnto the Church, in the Apostles roomes, to defend this Virgin, and preserue her chastitie. Why calleth hee the Church a Virgin? Because the Apostles were liuing, by whom her audacious aduersaries were alwaies discouraged and discomforted. But either in this respect the Church now wanteth a Pope, or else shee needes him not at all. But Polycrates, although there were none left to preserue the puritie of this Virgin, bewaileth her want as you see, which surely had been vnaduifedly done, if his opinion had been, that this charge belonged to the Bishop of Rome. The Church then from the Apostles time began to decline, and inclined to the apostasie, which the Apostle did foretell should be, and we see now fulfilled. Then those Wolues of whom the Apostle did forewarne,3 came into the Church and ceased not to destroy the flocke. Then those Antichrists, whereof Iohn affirmeth some were in his time,4 began to vndertake the worke, which after was perfected and accomplished: I might heere shew you many euident tokens of your Churches Apostasie, out of these your owne Chronicles: they are no secrets, but such as any man that will reade and obserue, may easilie discerne.
dDVR. O horrible fact! ó intolerable wickedness! with what face can you thus speak, if you remember how Christ promised his spouse perpetual preservation? Hose. 2.20. Isa, 59.21. Psal. 131.17. and such like WHIT pag. 4•8. If your arguments were as great as your outeries, who could deal with you? That the Church may be corrupted, see these places Matth. 13.25. 1. Cor. 5.6. 2. Cor. 11.3. Isay. 1.21. Gal. 1.6. and 2.1. Further what have I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. & 10. have not before time written? And when I writ these things, I remembered well those promises and many other of that kind. But I know that they belong to the Church of the elect, and hinder not, but that particular Churches may be corrupted by error and false doctrine. DVR. Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates, but from Hegesippus, who called the Church a Virgin, because heretics as yet had not openly opposed her, and corrupted the seats of the Apostles: and did not say that she was corrupted after them. WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great which of them spake the words, for whosoever shall wergh the words, shall see that the sense of them is as I have said. And if the Church was ever to remain a chaste and pure Virgin, how foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin, or what may his meaning be else then that the Apostles being dead, she began to be corrupted, which the words following prove, when that age was overpassed; then she began to be corrupted with impious error? Yea and when you say that as yet heretics had not assaulted her, nor invaded the tents of the Apostles, either you say nothing, or you grant that after the Apostles time, they did assault her, and prevail against her.DVR. O horrible fact! ó intolerable vvickednes! vvith vvhat face can you thus speak, if you remember hovv Christ promised his spouse perpetuall preseruation? Hose. 2.20. Isa, 59.21. Psal. 131.17. and such like WHIT pag. 48. If your arguments vvere as great as your outeries, vvho could deale vvith you? That the Church may be corrupted, see these places
And since you call us unto Histories,f I will put ⟨p. 175⟩you in mind of one thing related in an ancient story, consider it well whether it touch your Pope, or no, and then answer fully concerning the whole matter. A Council was assembled in Africa, of 217.2 Bishops; whereof Augustine himself was one, the glory and star of Africa: I will set down the story briefly. Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates, which should persuade the Fathers of Africa, that appeals might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops. The Legates make relation hereof unto the Fathers, and withal produce a Canon of the Council of Nice, wherein the privilege was recorded: the Fathers wonder at this new decree, and answer the Legates that they never saw any such Canon in any copy Greek or Latin, and that, as they thought, the true and perfect copy of that Council remained with them, which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage, which was himself present at that Council, had brought into Africa; notwithstanding they determine to send to Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch, such as might receive the true and natural copies, from the Bishops of those cities. The Popes Legates would fain have stayed them from sending, but could not. Cyril Bishop of Alexandria, and Atticus of Constantinople deliver unto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Afric, wherein they do avouch that those copies were most true and sincere.3 Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Council of Nice no such thing can be found: so they writ to Celestine then Pope, and command him to surcease from making any such claim ever after ⟨p. 176⟩and not to send abroad his Collectors, lest thereby they may seem to bring the presumptuous smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ. The Pope for the time yielded not voluntarily, but perforce: for an hundred years after Boniface the second in an Epistle unto Eulalius inveigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage, which was now President of the African Council, and affirmeth that he and his fellows, whereof Augustine was the chief, were all moved by the devil to withstand the Church of Rome; thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatics, Aurelius of Carthage, & other the African Bishops, yea and Augustine himself among the rest, because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter:
And since you call vs vnto Histories,f I will put ⟨p. 175⟩you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie, consider it well whether it touch your Pope, or no, and then answere fully concerning the whole matter. A Councell was assembled in Africke, of 217.2 Bishops; whereof Augustine himselfe was one, the glorie and starre of Africke: I will set downe the story briefly. Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates, which should perswade the Fathers of Africke, that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops. The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers, and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice, wherein the priuiledge was recorded: the Fathers wonder at this new decree, and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin, and that, as they thought, the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them, which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage, which was himselfe present at that Councell, had brought into Africke; notwithstāding they determine to send to Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch, such as might receiue the true and naturall copies, from the Bishops of those cities. The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending, but could not. Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria, and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk, wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere.3 Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found: so they writ to Celestine then Pope, and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after ⟨p. 176⟩and not to send abroad his Collectors, lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ. The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily, but perforce: for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage, which was now President of the African Councell, and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes, whereof Augustine was the chiefe, were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome; thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes, Aurelius of Carthage, & other the African Bishops, yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest, because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter:
fDVR. Two things here are, of which you would persuade the Reader, one that the Fathers of the Councell allowed not that which the Pope affected by his Legates: another that the Legates did maliciously produce a forged Canon. What would you do if you could find any thing of weight in any story against us? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader, and what can any story afford us more solid and perspicuous, for whether you respect the a•• bition and fraud not used in former times by the Bishops of Rome, or the authority of the Councell, or that famous sentence given against the Bishops of Rome, there is no man so ignorant and unexperienced, but he will confess that they enacted and decreed a great matter, and of no small importance.DVR. Two things here are, of which you would persvvade the Reader, one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhich the Pope affected by his Legates: another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon. What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any storie against vs? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader, and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous, for whether you respect the a•• bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome, or the authority of the Councell, or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome, there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced, but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter, and of no smale importance.
as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage, he giveth him great thanks because he made friendship with the Church of Rome, that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome over the Church of Africa. These things I have related out of their truest records, and of this kind I could rehearse many more, so little cause have you to promise your self much help out of History.
as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage, he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome, that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke. These things I haue related out of their truest records, and of this kind I could rehearse many more, so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie.
Hence may be perceived what the purpose and endeavour of the Bishops of Rome have bin these many years, viz. to make themselves Lords of all Churches, which also at length they obtained. But because you ask the question and desire answer, when Rome lost her faith so much commended, and what that, which once was; ceased to be? I may truly affirm that though in many things she had made shipwreck of faith before, yet then did it begin to be the seat of Antichrist, when Phocas the murderer granted unto Boniface the third, that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches, and the Bishop of Rome should be called Universal Bishop. I will not too curiously search into the moments of times, a mischief creepeth privily, for a time unespied ⟨p. 177⟩of men. But the common opinion which men conceived of those times was, that Gregory the great was the last good, and the first ill Bishop of Rome. He was no better then he should be, and all that succeeded him were stark nought, every one striving to go beyond his predecessor in all lewdness: so that, now a sink of all wickedness hath violently burst into the Church, and hath possessed all the parts thereof. You force me, Campian, to open the sores of your Church, which I had rather not touch, but you are so unreasonable, that you neither spare us nor your selves. Barnard, who was the only religious man, your Church had for many years, how often, and how grievously, doth he bewail, the most desperate estate of your Church?g A shameful contagion sprea•••h over the body of the whole Church: 2the servants of Christ serve Antichrist. From the sole of the foot to the crown of the head nothing is sound. With these and the like speeches used Bernard to bewail and complain of the intolerable wickedness of your Church, which he would never have done without sufficient reason, moving thereunto.3 Aeneas Syluius, afterwards Pope, writeth that charity was waxed cold, and faith utterly gone, and what manner of Church shall we judge this to have been, when she had lost both faith and charity? But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice unto the Church, and that after he changing his opinion, when of Aeneas he was made Pius, for that was ever his usual speech. Cast away Aeneas & take Pius.
Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares, viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches, which also at length they obtained. But because you aske the question and desire answere, when Rome lost her faith so much commended, and what that, which once was; ceased to be? I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before, yet thē did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist, when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third, that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches, and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop. I will not too curiously search into the moments of times, a mischiefe creepeth priuily, for a time vnespied ⟨p. 177⟩of men. But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was, that Gregory the great was the last good, and the first ill Bishop of Rome. He was no better then he should be, and all that succeeded him were starke nought, euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes: so that, now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church, and hath possessed all the parts therof. You force me, Campian, to open the sores of your Church, which I had rather not touch, but you are so vnreasonable, yt you neither spare vs nor your selues. Barnard, who was the only religious man, your Church had for many yeares, how often, and how grieuously, doth he bewaile, the most desperat estace of your Church?g A shamefull contagion sprea•••h ouer the body of the whole Church: 2the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist. From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound. With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church, which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason, mouing thereunto.3 Aeneas Syluius, afterwards Pope, writeth that charity was waxed cold, and faith vtterly gone, and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been, when shee had lost both faith and charity? But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church, and that after hee changing his opinion, when of Aeneas he was made Pius, for that was euer his vsuall speech. Cast away Aeneas & take Pius.
gDVR. Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church, but of the manners of the wicked. and in the Church the evil men were ever mixed among the good. WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder what was in your mind, when you confess that the manners of your predecessors were such, as he describeth both heere, and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor, walk decked with much precious apparel. If I durst speaze it; these are rather pa••ors for devils then for Christs sheep, Your Court usually receiveth good men, but maketh sew good. There the wicked are not made better, but the good far worse. A number of such places I could allege out of him, neither bewaileth l•ethe mixture of the bad, as you say, but the perishing of the good, and the ru•ne of the Church.DVR. Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church, but of the manners of the vvicked. and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good. WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind, when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such, as he describeth both heere, and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor, vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell. If I durst speaze it; these are rather pa••ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe, Your Court vsually receiueth good men, but maketh sevv good. There the vvicked are not made better, but the good farre worse. A number of such places I could alledge out of him, neither bewail•th l•ethe mixture of the bad, as you say, but the perishing of the good, and the ru•ne of the Church.
What shall I further recite Petrarch, Mantuan, and other Poets both learned and famous, ⟨p. 178⟩which feared not with Satirical verses to inveigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergy? all things were then so out of order, that all sins might without controlment both be practised and openly blamed. I need not to seek far, remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine, not many years ago, at the Council of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church: whose witness must needs be strong and effectual against you, though of it self it be little worth. Thus he saith,1 Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition, from faith to infidelity, from Christ to Antichrist, from God to Epicurism. Behold the Marks of your Church, su•••stition, infidelity, Antichrist, Epicure, for all this you are not ashamed to affirm that no History either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter. But Campian, the more you defend the integrity of your Church, the more you cause us to manifest the corruptions of it.
What shal I further recite Petrarch, Mantuan, and other Poets both learned and famous, ⟨p. 178⟩which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie? all things were then so out of order, that all sinnes might without controul••ent both be practised and openly blamed. I need not to seeke farre, remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine, not many yeares agoe, at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church: whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you, though of it selfe it bee little worth. Thus he saith,1 Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition, from faith to infidelity, from Christ to Antichrist, from God to Epicurisme. Behold the Marks of your Church, su•••stition, infidelity, Antichrist, Epicure, for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter. But Campian, the more you defend the integrity of your Church, the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it.
do thrust vpon vs, was 〈…〉 allowed in the Catholike Church; then are all the Historiographers on our part, and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous, and such as can make no man afraid, except it bee first granted, that all Christians throughout euery age, haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell;
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bDVR. It is not hard to know the heresies of the Jews, for Philastrius, Epiphanius, Josephus, have written of them. WHIT pag. 484. It is as easy to know the heresies of Christians, being more in the Christian Church then ever were in the Church of Jerusalem, and of these also have many books been written.DVR. It is not hard to knovv the heresies of the Ievves, for Philastrius, Epiphanius, Iosephus, haue vvritten of them. WHIT pag. 484. It is as easie to know the heresies of Christians, being more in the Christian Church then euer vvere in the Church of Ierusalem, and of these also haue many bookes been vvritten.
cDVR. You require an easy thing; for the authors of the heresies of the Greek Church, we can easily number out of their stories, Samosatenus, Eutyches, Sergius, Arrius, Nestorius, Macedonius, and such like. WHIT. pag. 486. It is a wonder that you vvill object these heresies unto the Greek Church: when you cannot be ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung up in the Romish Church, and almost in the middest of Rome: For Valentinus, Marcion, Cerdon, Florentius, Blasius, Tatianus, Novatus, Pelagius, Julianus, Celestinus, and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome. If you answer the Latin Church condemned these; I can answer so for the Greek Church. And if you think you have objected well in numbering certain heresies of the Greek Church, you may think I have answered aswell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church.DVR. You require an easie thing; for the authors of the heresies of the Greeke Church, vve can easily number out of their stories, Samosatenus, Eutyches, Sergius, Arrius, Nestorius, Macedonius, and such like. WHIT. pag. 486. It is a vvonder that you vvill obiect these heresies vnto the Greeke Church: vvhen you cannot bee ignorant but that moe and more horrible heresies sprung vp in the Romish Church, and almost in the middest of Rome: For Valentinus, Marcion, Cerdon, Florentius, Blasius, Tatianus, Nouatus, Pelagius, Julianus, Celestinus, and other such did broach most pestiferous heresies in Rome. If you ansvvere the Latin Church condemned these; I can ansvvere so for the Greeke Church. And if you thinke you haue obiected vvell in numbring certeine heresies of the Greeke Church, you may thinke I haue ansvvered asvvell in reckoning the heresies of the Latin Church.
. Further vvhat haue I else spoken that Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 32. and Nicephorus lib. 3. cap. 7. & 10. haue not before time vvritten? And vvhen I vvrit these things, I remembred vvell those promises and many other of that kind. But I knovv that they belong to the Church of the elect, and hinder not, but that particular Churches may bee corrupted by error and false doctrine. DVR. Eusebius doth not anouch these from Polycrates, but from Hegesippus, vvho called the Church a Virgin, because heretikes as yet had not openly opposed her, and corrupted the seates of the Apostles: and did not say that shee vvas corrupted after them. WHIT. pag. 490. The matter is not great vvhich of them spake the vvords, for vvhosoeuer shall vvergh the vvords, shall see that the sense of them is as I haue said. And if the Church vvas euer to remaine a chast and pure Virgin, hovv foolish should that Hegesippus be in affirming that hitherto she remained a Virgin, or vvhat may his meaning bee else then that the Apostles being dead, she began to be corrupted, vvhich the vvords follovving proue, vvhen that age vvas ouerpassed; then she began to be corrupted vvith impious error? Yea and vvhen you say that as yet heretikes had not assaulted her, nor inuaded the tents of the Apostles, either you say nothing, or you graunt that after the Apostles time, they did assault her, and preuaile against her.
eDVR. Nay rather if he were living he would wonder at your fo•lie, who are either so ignorant or so forgetful, that you observe not, how Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new controversy about the celebration of the Passover. WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policy you pass over this place in silence, without answer; and tell us a tale of another different thing, which affordeth us a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope: for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greek Churches, dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter, and would not follow the custom of the Pope and Romish Church, though the Pope sought it by all means, who can doubt, but that this supreme power of the Pope over all Churches under Christ as his Vicar, was unknown and unheard of among them?DVR. Nay rather if hee were liuing hee would wonder at your fo•lie, who are either so ignorant or so forgetfull, that you obserue not, hovv Polycrates sent letters to Pope Victor touching the new cōtrouersie about the cele bration of the Passeouer. WHIT. pag. 492. It seemeth in policie you passe ouer this place in silence, without answere; and tel vs a tale of another different thing, which affordeth vs a strong argument against the tyranny of the Pope: for if the most learned and holy Bishops of the Greeke Churches, dissented greatly from the Pope in the celebration of Easter, and would not follow the custome of the Pope and Romish Church, though the Pope sought it by all meanes, who can doubt, but that this supreame power of the Pope ouer all Churches vnder Christ as his Vicar, was vnknowne and vnheard of among them?
