An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
And since you call us unto Histories,f I will put ⟨p. 175⟩you in mind of one thing related in an ancient story, consider it well whether it touch your Pope, or no, and then answer fully concerning the whole matter. A Council was assembled in Africa, of 217.2 Bishops; whereof Augustine himself was one, the glory and star of Africa: I will set down the story briefly. Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates, which should persuade the Fathers of Africa, that appeals might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops. The Legates make relation hereof unto the Fathers, and withal produce a Canon of the Council of Nice, wherein the privilege was recorded: the Fathers wonder at this new decree, and answer the Legates that they never saw any such Canon in any copy Greek or Latin, and that, as they thought, the true and perfect copy of that Council remained with them, which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage, which was himself present at that Council, had brought into Africa; notwithstanding they determine to send to Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch, such as might receive the true and natural copies, from the Bishops of those cities. The Popes Legates would fain have stayed them from sending, but could not. Cyril Bishop of Alexandria, and Atticus of Constantinople deliver unto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Afric, wherein they do avouch that those copies were most true and sincere.3 Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Council of Nice no such thing can be found: so they writ to Celestine then Pope, and command him to surcease from making any such claim ever after ⟨p. 176⟩and not to send abroad his Collectors, lest thereby they may seem to bring the presumptuous smoky pride of the world into the Church of Christ. The Pope for the time yielded not voluntarily, but perforce: for an hundred years after Boniface the second in an Epistle unto Eulalius inveigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage, which was now President of the African Council, and affirmeth that he and his fellows, whereof Augustine was the chief, were all moved by the devil to withstand the Church of Rome; thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatics, Aurelius of Carthage, & other the African Bishops, yea and Augustine himself among the rest, because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter:
And since you call vs vnto Histories,f I will put ⟨p. 175⟩you in mind of one thing related in an auncient storie, consider it well whether it touch your Pope, or no, and then answere fully concerning the whole matter. A Councell was assembled in Africke, of 217.2 Bishops; whereof Augustine himselfe was one, the glorie and starre of Africke: I will set downe the story briefly. Zozimus Bishop of Rome sent thither his Legates, which should perswade the Fathers of Africke, that appeales might be made to the Bishop of Rome from all other Bishops. The Legates make relation hereof vnto the Fathers, and withall produce a Canon of the Councell of Nice, wherein the priuiledge was recorded: the Fathers wonder at this new decree, and answere the Legates that they neuer saw any such Canon in any copie Greeke or Latin, and that, as they thought, the true and perfect copie of that Councell remained with them, which Cecilianus Bishop of Carthage, which was himselfe present at that Councell, had brought into Africke; notwithstāding they determine to send to Constantinople, Alexandria, and Antioch, such as might receiue the true and naturall copies, from the Bishops of those cities. The Popes Legates would faine haue stayed them from sending, but could not. Cyrill Bishop of Alexandria, and Atticus of Constantinople deliuer vnto the messengers the copies with letters to the Fathers of Africk, wherin they do auouch that those copies were most true and sincere.3 Then at length the forgery appeareth in the Canon of the Councell of Nice no such thing can be found: so they writ to Celestine then Pope, and command him to surcease from making any such claime euer after ⟨p. 176⟩and not to send abroad his Collectors, lest thereby they may seeme to bring the presumptuous smokie pride of the world into the Church of Christ. The Pope for the time yeelded not voluntarily, but perforce: for an hundred yeeres after Boniface the second in an Epistle vnto Eulalius inueigheth bitterly against Aurelius Bishop of Carthage, which was now President of the African Councell, and affirmeth that hee and his fellowes, whereof Augustine was the chiefe, were all moued by the deuill to withstand the Church of Rome; thus Pope Boniface censureth as schismatikes, Aurelius of Carthage, & other the African Bishops, yea and Augustine himselfe among the rest, because they resisted the Bishop of Rome in that matter:
fDVR. Two things here are, of which you would persuade the Reader, one that the Fathers of the Councell allowed not that which the Pope affected by his Legates: another that the Legates did maliciously produce a forged Canon. What would you do if you could find any thing of weight in any story against us? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader, and what can any story afford us more solid and perspicuous, for whether you respect the a•• bition and fraud not used in former times by the Bishops of Rome, or the authority of the Councell, or that famous sentence given against the Bishops of Rome, there is no man so ignorant and unexperienced, but he will confess that they enacted and decreed a great matter, and of no small importance.DVR. Two things here are, of which you would persvvade the Reader, one that the Fathers of the Councell allovved not that vvhich the Pope affected by his Legates: another that the Legates did malitiously produce a forged Canon. What vvould you doe if you could find any thing of vvaight in any storie against vs? WHIT pag. 494. They are the things indeed wherein I would instruct the Reader, and what can any storie afford vs more solide and perspicuous, for whether you respect the a•• bition and fraud not vsed in former times by the Bishops of Rome, or the authority of the Councell, or that famous sentence giuen against the Bishops of Rome, there is no man so ignorant and vnexperienced, but he will confesse that they enacted and decreed a great matter, and of no smale importance.
as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage, he giveth him great thanks because he made friendship with the Church of Rome, that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome over the Church of Africa. These things I have related out of their truest records, and of this kind I could rehearse many more, so little cause have you to promise your self much help out of History.
as for Eulalius then Bishop of Carthage, he giueth him great thankes because he made friendship with the Church of Rome, that is he willingly permitted the immediate power of the Bishop of Rome ouer the Church of Africke. These things I haue related out of their truest records, and of this kind I could rehearse many more, so little cause haue you to promise your selfe much helpe out of Historie.
Hence may be perceived what the purpose and endeavour of the Bishops of Rome have bin these many years, viz. to make themselves Lords of all Churches, which also at length they obtained. But because you ask the question and desire answer, when Rome lost her faith so much commended, and what that, which once was; ceased to be? I may truly affirm that though in many things she had made shipwreck of faith before, yet then did it begin to be the seat of Antichrist, when Phocas the murderer granted unto Boniface the third, that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches, and the Bishop of Rome should be called Universal Bishop. I will not too curiously search into the moments of times, a mischief creepeth privily, for a time unespied ⟨p. 177⟩of men. But the common opinion which men conceived of those times was, that Gregory the great was the last good, and the first ill Bishop of Rome. He was no better then he should be, and all that succeeded him were stark nought, every one striving to go beyond his predecessor in all lewdness: so that, now a sink of all wickedness hath violently burst into the Church, and hath possessed all the parts thereof. You force me, Campian, to open the sores of your Church, which I had rather not touch, but you are so unreasonable, that you neither spare us nor your selves. Barnard, who was the only religious man, your Church had for many years, how often, and how grievously, doth he bewail, the most desperate estate of your Church?g A shameful contagion sprea•••h over the body of the whole Church: 2the servants of Christ serve Antichrist. From the sole of the foot to the crown of the head nothing is sound. With these and the like speeches used Bernard to bewail and complain of the intolerable wickedness of your Church, which he would never have done without sufficient reason, moving thereunto.3 Aeneas Syluius, afterwards Pope, writeth that charity was waxed cold, and faith utterly gone, and what manner of Church shall we judge this to have been, when she had lost both faith and charity? But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice unto the Church, and that after he changing his opinion, when of Aeneas he was made Pius, for that was ever his usual speech. Cast away Aeneas & take Pius.
Hence may bee perceiued what the purpose and endeuour of the Bishops of Rome haue bin these many yeares, viz. to make themselues Lords of all Churches, which also at length they obtained. But because you aske the question and desire answere, when Rome lost her faith so much commended, and what that, which once was; ceased to be? I may truly affirme that though in many things she had made shipwracke of faith before, yet thē did it begin to be the seate of Antichrist, when Phocas the murderer granted vnto Boniface the third, that the Church of Rome should be head of all Churches, and the Bishop of Rome should be called Vniuersall Bishop. I will not too curiously search into the moments of times, a mischiefe creepeth priuily, for a time vnespied ⟨p. 177⟩of men. But the common opinion which men conceiued of those times was, that Gregory the great was the last good, and the first ill Bishop of Rome. He was no better then he should be, and all that succeeded him were starke nought, euery one striuing to goe beyond his predecessor in all lewdnes: so that, now a sincke of all wickednes hath violently burst into the Church, and hath possessed all the parts therof. You force me, Campian, to open the sores of your Church, which I had rather not touch, but you are so vnreasonable, yt you neither spare vs nor your selues. Barnard, who was the only religious man, your Church had for many yeares, how often, and how grieuously, doth he bewaile, the most desperat estace of your Church?g A shamefull contagion sprea•••h ouer the body of the whole Church: 2the seruants of Christ serue Antichrist. From the sole of the foote to the crowne of the head nothing is sound. With these and the like speeches vsed Bernard to bewaile and complaine of the intolerable wickednes of your Church, which he would neuer haue done without sufficient reason, mouing thereunto.3 Aeneas Syluius, afterwards Pope, writeth that charity was waxed cold, and faith vtterly gone, and what manner of Church shall we iudge this to haue been, when shee had lost both faith and charity? But it may be you will say that he wrote this of malice vnto the Church, and that after hee changing his opinion, when of Aeneas he was made Pius, for that was euer his vsuall speech. Cast away Aeneas & take Pius.
gDVR. Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church, but of the manners of the wicked. and in the Church the evil men were ever mixed among the good. WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder what was in your mind, when you confess that the manners of your predecessors were such, as he describeth both heere, and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor, walk decked with much precious apparel. If I durst speaze it; these are rather pa••ors for devils then for Christs sheep, Your Court usually receiveth good men, but maketh sew good. There the wicked are not made better, but the good far worse. A number of such places I could allege out of him, neither bewaileth l•ethe mixture of the bad, as you say, but the perishing of the good, and the ru•ne of the Church.DVR. Bernard speaketh not of the doctrine of the Church, but of the manners of the vvicked. and in the Church the euill men were euer mixed among the good. WHIT. pag. 504. I wonder vvhat was in your mind, when you confesse that the manners of your predecessors were such, as he describeth both heere, and ad Eugen. lib. 4. Amongst these you being their Pastor, vvalke decked vvith much pretious apparell. If I durst speaze it; these are rather pa••ors for diuels then for Christs sheepe, Your Court vsually receiueth good men, but maketh sevv good. There the vvicked are not made better, but the good farre worse. A number of such places I could alledge out of him, neither bewail•th l•ethe mixture of the bad, as you say, but the perishing of the good, and the ru•ne of the Church.
What shall I further recite Petrarch, Mantuan, and other Poets both learned and famous, ⟨p. 178⟩which feared not with Satirical verses to inveigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergy? all things were then so out of order, that all sins might without controlment both be practised and openly blamed. I need not to seek far, remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine, not many years ago, at the Council of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church: whose witness must needs be strong and effectual against you, though of it self it be little worth. Thus he saith,1 Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition, from faith to infidelity, from Christ to Antichrist, from God to Epicurism. Behold the Marks of your Church, su•••stition, infidelity, Antichrist, Epicure, for all this you are not ashamed to affirm that no History either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter. But Campian, the more you defend the integrity of your Church, the more you cause us to manifest the corruptions of it.
What shal I further recite Petrarch, Mantuan, and other Poets both learned and famous, ⟨p. 178⟩which feared not with Satiricall verses to inueigh against the Pope and Cardinals and the whole clergie? all things were then so out of order, that all sinnes might without controul••ent both be practised and openly blamed. I need not to seeke farre, remember what Cornelius Bishop of Bicontine, not many yeares agoe, at the Councell of Trent spake openly in the presence and audience of the whole Church: whose witnes must needs be strong and effectuall against you, though of it selfe it bee little worth. Thus he saith,1 Would to God they had not all with one consent turned from religion to superstition, from faith to infidelity, from Christ to Antichrist, from God to Epicurisme. Behold the Marks of your Church, su•••stition, infidelity, Antichrist, Epicure, for all this you are not ashamed to affirme that no Historie either yours or ours hath bewrayed or testified any such matter. But Campian, the more you defend the integrity of your Church, the more you cause vs to manifest the corruptions of it.
Our adversaries, say you, do grant that the Roman Church was once a holy Church. This we confess, and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthy praise, which you remember; and yet those praises by you mentioned, do not belong to that Church alone, but were given also to other Churches.1 For what if the faith of the Romans were published in the whole world? this was no proper or peculiar privilege of that Church. Hath not the Apostle written as much of the Church of Thessalonica,2 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places? What if he made mention of the Romans without ceasing? 3so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians. 4What though he doubted not but he should come unto the Romans in abundance of the blessing of Christ? 5think you his coming into other Churches was less fruitful?6 What if all Churches saluted the Romans, ⟨p. 179⟩and their obedience was every where spoken of? know you not that all the Saints used to salute one another? or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this? But we grant you, that at this time it was holy: what would you more?7 Then also when Paul preached the Gospel there in his favourable restraint. This also we grant: what more?8 And then also when Peter gathered and governed the Church there, calling it Babylon. We deny not this. And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon, for I doubt not, but it is the same of whichh John writes so much in the Revelation, the mother of whoredoms, and abominations of the earth; yet I cannot be so easily persuaded thati Peter ⟨p. 180⟩means Rome in this place; here Campian you are always at a nonplus, & could yet never prove that Peter was at Rome. But you take this for granted, and as already proved; which if any man once deny, then like the Mathematicians, you have done, and can go no further. But why may I not reasonably think, that Peter meaneth that Babylon, which once was the chief City of the Assyrians, in which City certainly were many Jews,11 unto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly. If I should set down that which I could allege in this cause, I fear I should try your patience too much. In the mean time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon, and hereafter, at your leisure, you may declare upon what occasion the name of it was altered.
Our aduersaries, say you, doe grant that the Romane Church was once a holy Church. This we confesle, and that then it was holy when Paul published those her worthie praise, which you remember; and yet those praises by you mentioned, doe not belong to that Church alone, but were giuen also to other Churches.1 For what if the faith of the Romanes were published in the whole world? this was no proper or peculiar priuiledge of that Church. Hath not the Apostle written asmuch of the Church of Thessalonica,2 Your faith to wards God is spread in all places? What if hee made mention of the Romanes without ceasing? 3so did he also incessantly remember the Thessalonians. 4What though he doubted not but hee should come vnto the Romanes in abundance of the blessing of Christ? 5thinke you his comming into other Churches was lesse fruitfull?6 What if all Churches saluted the Romanes, ⟨p. 179⟩and their obedience was euery where spoken of? know you not that all the Saints vsed to salute one another? or suppose you that other Churches were not as obedient to the Apostles as this? But we grant you, that at this time it was holy: what would you more?7 Then also when Paul preached the Gospell there in his fauourable restraint. This also wee grant: what more?8 And then also when Peter gathered and gouerned the Church there, calling it Babylon. We deny not this. And though I can be well content that you call Rome Babylon, for I doubt not, but it is the same of whichh Iohn writes so much in the Reuelation, the mother of whoredomes, and abominations of the earth; yet I cannot be so easily perswaded thati Peter ⟨p. 180⟩
hDVR. Saint John speaketh of Rome when it yet abhorred the saith of Christ, a•d persecuted Christians. WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. J••n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist, for when •e w••teth Apoc. 18.•. who seeth not that this cannot be understood of ancient Rome, but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Devils, and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foul spirits.DVR. Saint Iohn speaketh of Rome vvhen it yet abhorred the saith of Christ, a•d persecuted Christians. WHIT. pag. 512. Nay S. J••n described Rome as it was restored and reedified by Antichrist, for when •e w••teth
Now I hope at length you will rest and be satisfied. Nay, but you proceed still unto the ages that succeeded: Then when Clemens governed the Church: then also, when the Heathen Emperors massacred the Bishops of Rome: Even then I confess, Rome was an excellent Church of Christ. Will this content you? Nay further you say; Then also when Damasus, Siricius, Anastasius, Innocentius executed the Apostolic function. This is not to descend by degrees, but to ⟨p. 181⟩leap; for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these. But how will you persuade us to yield you thus much; Because Calvin (as you say) frankly confesseth, 1that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospel: Do not you, Campian, catch hold of that which no man will give you, nor be too confident of others liberality? Calvin doth not grant that which you take for granted: therefore you must redeliver it. Calvin in that place answereth to your overworn argument of succession, and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers, when they alleged the succession of Bishops, was not to prove those to be true Churches, where Bishops succeeded one another: but this first they assumed as most certain, that from the beginning of the Church unto the ages, whereof they speak, there was no alteration in religion; and thus they opposed to the new broached errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserved in the Church. Calvin then saith not that they hadk altered nothing in any point of faith, but that the Fathers used this argument of succession only in those cases, wherein it might appear they had innovated and altered nothing. Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ; but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospel, that Calvin never confessed, and we constantly deny. To say nothing of the rest. Thusl Syricius swerved from the ⟨p. 182⟩doctrine of the Gospel, when he entangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of enforced continency: and this doubtless was no small digression, but a plain departing from them Apostolic doctrine.5 Now at length you make a stay, and pursue the histories of the Church no further: only you demand, when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin; unto which question we have sufficiently answered.
Now I hope at length you will rest and be satisfied. Nay, but you proceed still vnto the ages that succeeded: Then when Clemens gouerned the Church: then also, when the Heathen Emperours massacred the Bishops of Rome: Euen then I confesse, Rome was an excellent Church of Christ. Will this content you? Nay further you say; Then also when Damasus, Siricius, Anastasius, Innocentius executed the Apostolike function. This is not to discend by degrees, but to ⟨p. 181⟩leape; for you hasten too fast from the forenamed to these. But how will you perswade vs to yeeld you thus much; Because Caluin (as you say) frankly confesseth, 1that as yet they had not digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell: Doe not you, Campian, catch hold of that which no man will giue you, nor be too confident of others liberalitie? Caluin doth not grant that which you take for granted: therefore you must redeliuer it. Caluin in that place answereth to your ouerworne argument of succession, and she weth that the purpose of the Fathers, when they alleaged the succession of Bishops, was not to proue those to be true Churches, where Bishops succeeded one another: but this first they assumed as most certaine, that from the beginning of the Church vnto the ages, whereof they speake, there was no alteration in religion; and thus they opposed to the new broched errors that doctrine which from the times of the Apostles was still preserued in the Church. Caluin then saith not that they hadk altered nothing in any point of faith, but that the Fathers vsed this argument of succession onely in those cases, wherein it might appeare they had innouated and altered nothing. Wherefore as we grant that the Church of Rome in the time of these Bishops was the true Church of Christ; but that they in nothing digressed from the doctrine of the Gospell, that Caluin neuer confessed, and wee constantly denie. To say nothing of the rest. Thusl Syricius swarued from the ⟨p. 182⟩doctrine of the Gospell, when he intangled the Ministers of the word with the snares of inforced continencie: and this doubtlesse was no small digression, but a plaine departing frō them Apostolike doctrine.5 Now at length you make a stay, and pursue the histories of the Church no further: only you demaund, when Rome ceased to be as formerly it had bin; vnto which question we haue sufficiently answered.
1I•st. lib. 4. cap. 2. s•ct. 3 & Epist. ad Sad•l.
kDVR. Do you acknowledge it to be the Church of Christ, which swerveth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine▪ what can be spoken more absurdly. WHIT. pag. 513. You that object absurdity to others are most absurd your self, for w•• not the Church of the lewes even then when it abounded with many errors, the Church of God. The Corinthians and Galatians, when they had many ways declined from the doctrine of the Gospel, yet S. Paul saluted them […] Churches, 1 Cor. 1.2. Gal. 1.2. which he would not have done, if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors.DVR. Do you acknowledge it to bee the Church of Christ, vvhich swarueth and strayeth from the Apostles doctrine▪ vvhat can be sp•ken more absurdly. WHIT. pag. 513. You that obiect absurditie to others are most absurde your selfe, for vv•• not the Church of the lewes euen then when it abounded with many errors, the Church of God. The Corinthians and Galathians, when they had many waies declined from the doctrine of the Gospell, yet S. Paul saluted them 〈…〉 Churches, 1 Cor. 1.2. Gal. 1.2. which he would not haue done, if he had not acknowledged them to be Churches for all their errors.
lDVR. This error is common to you and many of your fello•es: for Syricius was not the first, we ha•e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage, which numbereth this among the Apostolic traditions, Carthag. 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemen• it in his Epistle to S. James the Lords brother. Amongest the Grecians the custom of the Priests wa• not to keep their wives as wives which they bad before their Priest-bood, Epiphan. hrel. 59. And Hierome against Viilantius vigeth this ancient custom of the Church. WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law. The which many Priests before him of their own acccrd embraced single life, yet none was compelled by law against his will: and as for the Councell of Carthage, it was held in the time of this Syricius. And so not before him, for your Clemens you know he is of no worth, but a mere counterfeit. That you report of the Grecians is incredible, when as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindered this law, neither would the Grecians ever endure this snare: Hierome indeed produceth an old custom, but no Apostolic, nor yet perpetual custom.
If you make doubt whether it now be the same it was, you may also if you list doubt whether the sun shine at noon. For this is as clear and without question, as that the present city of Rome, is become unlike the ancient flourishing Romans common wealth. And as he could not find Samnius in Samnius, and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh ⟨p. 183⟩wittily, who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome. So if you would now in the presentn Romish Church, seek for the ancient Church of Rome, you shall never find it, for she hath now lost, not the life only, but the very colour and appearance of the true Church.
If you make doubt whether it now bee the same it was, you may also if you list doubt whether the sunne shine at noone. For this is as cleere and without question, as that the present citie of Rome, is become vnlike the auncient flourishing Romans common wealth. And as hee could not find Samnius in Samnius, and the other of whom the Epigram speaketh ⟨p. 183⟩wittily, who found nought of Rome in the middest of Rome. So if you would now in the presentn Romish Church, seek for the auncient Church of Rome, you shall neuer find it, for shee hath now lost, not the life only, but the very colour and appearance of the true Church.
nDVR. What impudency is this? there was never heresy that assaulted this Church, of which it carried not the victory. As over the Donatists, Jovinian, Pelagius the Britain and others. WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproaches, and stand to that I have said. The Church of Rome which once flourished is now so oppressed with Antichrist, that besides the outward face, image, countenance of a Church, & a vain pomp, there is nothing else left in it. There is no word but it is corrupted with pestiferous leaved, no Sacrament but polluted with sacrilege and corruption, no discipline but Antichristian: I pass not for your Popes chair; your College of Cardinals, the glory of your Bishops, your Priests, Monks, Temples, riches, nothing move me; I search for a living Church, not bare walls, for a man, not a picture, for a body, not a shadow: as for your criumphes you boast of, they are no more proper to the true Church, then the triumphs of old Rome over Pyrrhus, Hannibal, Perses, Antiochus, are to be esteemed the triumphs of Rome now being. Finally as for Pelagius, he triumphed over the whole Popish kingdom. For did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature? and your Popish crew defendeth the same; who seeth not then Pelagius sitting in your triumphant chariot?DVR. VVhat impudencie is this? there vvas neuer heresie that assaulted this Church, of vvhich it caried not the victorie. As ouer the Donatists, Iouinian, Pelagius the Britaine and others. WHIT. pag. 521. I contempe your reproches, and stand to that I haue saide. The Church of Rome vvhich once flourished is novv so oppressed vvith Antichrist, that besides the outvvard face, image, countenance of a Church, & a vaine pompe, there is nothing else left in it. There is no vvord but it is corrupted vvith pestiferous leaued, no Sacrament but polluted vvith sacriledge and corruption, no discipline but Antichristian: I passe not for your Popes chaire; your Colledge of Cardinals, the glorie of your Bishops, your Priests, Monkes, Temples, riches, nothing moue me; I search for a liuing Church, not bare walles, for a man, not a picture, for a body, not a shadow: as for your criumphes you boast of, they are no more proper to the true Church, then the triumphes of old Rome ouer Pyrrhus, Anniball, Perses, Antiochus, are to be esteemed the triumphes of Rome novv being. Finally as for Pelagius, he triumphed ouer the whole Popish kingdome. For did he not teach that grace was inbred in nature? and your Popish crevv defendeth the same; who seeth not then Pelagius sitting in your triumphant chariot?
Seeing therefore all other things fail you, and also Histories themselves, on which you seemed much to rely, help you nothing, what remaineth but one of these two? either must you yield before the battle, or die in the battle. I wish you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth. We have learned it to be commendable, aswell to yield unto reason, as with reason to overcome.
Seeing therefore all other things faile you, and also Histories themselues, on which you seemed much to relie, helpe you nothing, what remaineth but one of these two? either must you yeeld before the battaile, or die in the battaile. I wish you would once at length take knowledge of that which Nazianzen writeth. We haue learned it to bee commendable, aswell to yeeld vnto reason, as with reason to ouercome.
When that (most excellent men) I revolve in my mind amongst many heresies wherewith I have to do, certain monstrous opinions of such as are fantastically given; I could not but condemn my self of slothfulness and cowardliness, if making trial thereof, I should be afraid of any mans activity and strength: let him be as eloquent as ye would wish, let him be as much exercised as you would desire, yea let him be one that hath throughly studied all sorts of books, yet must he needs be to seek, both for matter and words also when he shall undertake to maintain those his unpossible propositions as follow: for (if he perhaps will give his consent) we will dispute of God, of Christ, of Man, of sin, of Justice, of Sacraments, and of Manners, I will try whether they dare maintain their opinions, & such sayings, as they, lingering after their own lure, have bruited abroad by their writings. God grant they will acknowledge these their owna axioms:* God is the author and cause of sin, willing, prompting, making, commanding, and working it, and their governing the wicked counsels of naughty men.* The adultery of David, and the treason of the Traitor Judas, was as properly the work of God, as the calling of S. Paul was. This monstrous doctrine, whereof Philip, Melanchthon was once ashamed, yet Martin Luther from whose breast Philip sucked the same, as highly extolleth, as though it had been some heavenly oracle, and therefore matcheth his said scholar in a manner with the Apostle S. Paul. I will ⟨p. 185⟩demand also what mind Luther was of whom the English Calvinists affirm to have been a man sent from God to lighten the Word, when he razed out of the Litany used in the Church this verse, O blessed Trinity, and one God have mercy upon us: then in order I will proceed to the person ofo Christ, & demand of them, what these Paradoxes mean, whereas the Catholic Church holdeth that Christ is the Son of God, and God of God.* Calvin saith that Christ is God of himself, and Beza affirmeth that he was not begotten of the substance of the Father: also be it agreed (saith he) that there are in Christ two unions consisting in one substance, the one of the soul with the flesh, and the other of the Divinity with the humanity. That place of S.c John, I and the Father are one, doth not prove that Christ is God of one substance with God the Father:
WHen that (most excellent men) I reuolue in my mind amongst many heresies wherewith I haue to doe, certaine mōstrous opinions of such as are fantasticallie giuen; I could not but condemne my self of slouthfulnes and cowardlines, if making triall thereof, I should bee afraid of any mans actiuitie and strength: let him be as eloquent as yee would wish, let him be as much exercised as you would desire, yea let him be one that hath throughly studied all sorts of books, yet must he needs be to seeke, both for matter and words also when he shall vndertake to maintaine those his vnpossible propositions as follow: for (if he perhaps will giue his consent) we will dispute of God, of Christ, of Man, of sinne, of Iustice, of Sacraments, and of Manners, I will trie whether they dare maintaine their opinions, & such sayings, as they, lingring after their owne lure, haue bruted abroad by their writings. God graunt they will acknowledge these their ownea axiomes:* God is the author and cause of sinne, willing, prompting, making, commaunding, and working it, and their gouerning the wicked counsels of naughty men.* The adultery of Dauid, and the treason of the Traitor Iudas, was as properly the worke of God, as the calling of S. Paul was. This monstrous doctrine, whereof Philip, Melancthon was once ashamed, yet Martin Luther from whose brest Philip suckt the same, as highly extolleth, as though it had been some heauenly oracle, and therefore matcheth his said scholler in a manner with the Apostle S. Paul. I will ⟨p. 185⟩demaund also what mind Luther was of whom the English Caluinists affirme to haue been a man sent from God to lighten the Word, when hee razed out of the Letany vsed in the Church this verse, O blessed Trinitie, and one God haue mercy vpon vs: then in order I will proceed to the person ofo Christ, & demaund of them, what these Paradoxes meane, whereas the Catholike Church holdeth that Christ is the Son of God, and God of God.* Caluin saith that Christ is God of himselfe, and Beza affirmeth that he was not begotten of the substance of the Father: also be it agreed (saith he) that there are in Christ two vnions consisting in one substance, the one of the soule with the flesh, and the other of the Diuinity with the humanity. That place of S.c
aDe Deo. Cal. Inst. lib. 1. cap. 18. lib 2. cap. 4. lib. 3. cap. 23. & 24. Pet. Mart. in 1. Sam. 2. Methanct. in cap. Rom. 8. Wittem. 1524. Sic docet Luther. in asser. 36. & in resol. asser. 36. & in lib. de ser. arbit. Praesat. in anno Phil. In Apol. Eccl. Ang. Vide Ench. pre. an. 1543De Deo. Cal. Inst. lib. 1. cap. 18. lib 2. cap. 4. lib. 3. cap. 23. & 24. Pet. Mart. in 1. Sam. 2. Methanct. in cap. Rom. 8. VVittem. 1524. Sic docet Luther. in asser. 36. & in resol. asser. 36. & in lib. de ser. arbit. Praesat. in anno Phil. In Apol. Eccl. Ang. Vide Ench. pre. an. 1543
*This is most false, not any one of our men have affirmed that God is the author of sin.This is most false, not any one of our men haue affirmed that God is the author of sinne.
*This is false, we do not so compare together.This is false, we do not so compare togither.
oDe Christ. Inst. lib. 1. c. 13. nu. 23. & 24. Beza in Hess. Beza contra Schmidel. lib. de unit. Hypost. dua. in Christ. not.De Christ. Inst. lib. 1. c. 13. nu. 23. & 24. Beza in Hess. Beza contra Schmidel. lib. de vnit. Hypost. dua. in Christ. nat.
*Christ is Son of the Father, but God of himself.Christ is Son of the Father, but God of himselfe.
yea and my soul (* saithd Luther) cannot brook this word (Homovotin.) Proceed ye forward,e Christ from his infancy was not full of grace, but daily increased in gifts of the mind, as other men usually do, and waxed wiser through experience every day more then other, so that in his childhood he was subject tof ignorance, which is all one as if they should say that Christ was corrupted, with the spot and stain of* original sin. But listen and you shall know more pernicious doctrine then this. Christ when he prayed in the garden, and plentifully sweat both water and blood, trembled through fear, and sensibly feeling of eternal damnation, uttered certain speeches without reason, and without consent of the inward spirit, yea speeches without consideration through the vehemency of his grief: the which speeches as unadvisedly spoken, he quickly corrected. Is there any more such stuff? give diligent ear: Christ, when he cried out with a loud voice, hanging on the Cross, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, was tormented with the flames of hell fire, he let over-slip* himg desperate speeches, being no otherwise affectioned, then if he should have died an eternal ⟨p. 186⟩death; if they have any worse stuff then this, let them empty their gorge. Christ they say, descended into hell, that is, Christ after he was dead, tasted of the pains of hell, no whith less then the damned souls do, saving that he was to be restored again; for as much as by his corporal death, he could have profited us nothing, it was therefore requisite that hisi soul also should strive with eternal death, and in this manner to tolerate the pain, and pay the ransom of our sins. And lest peradventure any man should suspect, that this escaped Calvin by oversight, the saidk Calvin calleth you all forlorn knaves, if any of you, have debated upon this* comfortable doctrine, oh cursed times! oh cursed days! what miserable doctrine have you bred up?
yea and my soule (* saithd Luther) cannot brooke this word (Homouotin.) Proceed yee forward,e Christ from his infancie was not full of grace, but daily encreased in gifts of the mind, as other men vsually doe, and waxed wiser through experience euery daie more then other, so that in his childhood he was subiect tof ignorance, which is all one as if they should say that Christ was corrupted, with the spot and staine of* originall sinne. But listen and you shall know more pernitious doctrine then this. Christ when he praied in the garden, and plentifully sweat both water and blood, trembled through feare, and sensiblie feeling of eternall damnation, vttered certaine speeches without reason, and without consent of the inward spirit, yea speeches without consideration through the vehemencie of his griefe: the which speeches as vnaduisedly spoken, he quickly corrected. Is there any more such stuff? giue diligēt eare: Christ, whē he cried out with a loud voice, hanging on the Crosse, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, was tormented with the flames of hell fire, he let ouer-slip* himg desperate speeches, being no otherwise affectioned, then if he should haue died an eternall ⟨p. 186⟩death; if they haue any worse stuffe then this, let them emptie their gorge. Christ they saie, descended into hell, that is, Christ after he was dead, tasted of the paines of hell, nowhith lesse then the damned soules doe, sauing that he was to be restored againe; for as much as by his corporall death, he could haue profited vs nothing, it was therefore requisit that hisi soule also should striue with eternall death, and in this manner to tolerate the paine, and paye the ransome of our sins. And lest peraduenture any man should suspect, that this escaped Caluin by ouersight, the said
*This is false, read the answer.This is false, reade the answere.
fLuth. Loss. Hem. Mela. in Evang. de. 1. post. Epist. Marl. in Matt. 26. Call. in Har. Evan Brentius in Luc. par. 2. Hom. 65. & in Catech. an. 1551. & in Joh. Hom. 54.Luth. Loss. Hem. Mela. in Euang. de. 1. post. Epist. Marl. in Matt. 26. Cal. in Har. Euan Brentius in Luc. par. 2. Hom. 65. & in Catech. an. 1551. & in Ioh. Hom. 54.
*This is false, for all ignorance riseth not from original corruption.This is false, for all ignorance riseth not from originall corruption.
*This is false, neither Birutius nor any of our men ever said so.This is false, neither Birutius nor any of our men euer said so.
gCalvin. in Har. Evang. in eand. sent. Loss. in Matth. 26.Caluin. in Har. Euang. in eand. sent. Loss. in Matth. 26.
hSchmidel. conci. de Pass & c•• ua Dom. Aepinus Come. in Psal. 16.Schmidel. conci. de Pass & c•• ua Dom. Aepinus Com. in Psal. 16.
iCalvin. Instit lib. 2. cap. 16. Burn. in Catechis. 1551.
Hath that precious and princely blood, which gushed out of the torn pierced side of that most innocent Lamb Christ Jesus (every little drop of which blood, for the worthiness of the sacrifice, was sufficient to have redeemed a thousand worlds) relieved mankind nothing at all,1 except the man Christ Jesus the mediator between God and man had suffered also the* second death, the death of the soul, the want of grace, which is due only for sin, and detestable blasphemy? In comparison of this madness.3 Bucer shall seem modest, though absolutely he is indeed very impudent in that he taketh this word Infernus in the Creed only to signify Sepulchrum, that is, a grave, by a very over thou art figure Epexegesis, (which is a latter recital, or rather by a foolish and fond figure, which is commonly called Tautologia,) that is an idle and superfluous telling of one•tale often. Of the English sectaries, some are accustomed to hang upon Calvin, whom they make their God, and some to take part with Bucer their great master. Some also mutter in their sleeves against this article, devising with themselves how without causing of an uproar, it may be quite cut out of the Creed, that it molest them no more. That, that also was* attempted in a certain assembly at London, I remember one Richard ⟨p. 187⟩Chenie, a miserable old man, that was amongst them told me, who though he was evilly entreated of thieves abroad, yet did he not repair home into his fathers house. And thus far, as concerning Christ his own person: now what say they of man? marry that thel Image* of God is clean blotted out of a man, so that there is not so much as one spark of goodness remaining in him. His whole nature as touching all the whole faculties of the soul, is so quite altered, that no man not even he that is lately christened, nor any holy virtuous man, is any thing else inwardly, but mere corruption and contagion; but whereto tendeth this? forsooth to no other purpose, but that they who will snatch at heaven, by their only faith, leading their lives in loosest sort, may accuse nature, may despair to attain to virtue, and cast off the burden of the holy Commandments from their backs.
Hath that precious and princely blood, which gushed out of the torne pierced side of that most innocent Lambe Christ Iesus (euery little drop of which blood, for the worthines of the sacrifice, was sufficient to haue redeemed a thousand worlds) reliened mankind nothing at all,1 except the man Christ Iesus the mediator betweene God and man had suffred also the* second death, the death of the soule, the want of grace, which is due only for sinne, and detestable blasphemie? In comparison of this madnes.3 Bucer shall seeme modest, though absolutely he is indeed very impudent in that he taketh this word Infernus in the Creed only to signifie Sepulchrum, that is, a graue, by a very ouer thou art figure Epexegesis, (which is a latter recitall, or rather by a foolish and fond figure, which is commonly called Tautologia,) that is an idle and superfluous telling of one•tale often. Of the English sectaries, some are accustomed to hang vpon Caluin, whom they make their God, and some to take part with Bucer their great master. Some also mutter in their slieues against this article, dewising with themselues how without causing of an vproare, it may be quite cut out of the Creed, that it molest them no more. That, that also was* attempted in a certaine assemblie at London, I remember one Richard ⟨p. 187⟩Chenie, a miserable old man, that was amongst them told mee, who though hee was euilly intreated of theeues abroad, yet did hee not repaire home into his fathers house. And thus farre, as concerning Christ his owne person: now what say they of man? marry that thel Image* of God is cleane blotted out of a mā, so that there is not so much as one spark of goodnes remaining in him. His whole nature as touching all the whole faculties of the soule, is so quite altered, that no man not euen he that is lately christened, nor any holy vertuous man, is any thing else inwardly, but meere corruption and contagion; but whereto tendeth this? forsooth to no other purpose, but that they who will snatch at heauen, by their onlie faith, leading their liues in loosest sort, may accuse nature, may despaire to attaine to vertue, and cast off the burden of the holy Commandements from their backes.
*This is most false, this was never assayed in our Church.This is most false, this was neuer assayed in our Church.
lDe Homine Illyri. in par. lib. de ••t. Pec. col. Inst. lib. 2. ca. 3 Sacer. de cons. ve. Eccl. Aepin. de ••b. & Pecc. Sanct. Rem. contra Cens. Col. De peccato.
To this hathm Illyricus the standard bearer to the Magdeburgeans annexed, that his devilish decree of original sin, which he holdeth to be the most inward substance of mens souls, because (saith he) after the fall of Adam, the very Devil himself doth shape them anew, & transform them into his own substance. This is also an usual saying amongst these abjects, that* all sins are equal; but with this condition, (lest peradventure the Stoics do quicken again▪) that they be weighed in the balance of Gods just judgement: as though God, which is as a most gentle judge, would rather aggravate, then ease our burden; and notwithstanding that he is most righteous, he would yet exaggerate the offence, & make it more then it is in very deed. By this balance a silly poor Taverner that killeth a cock when there is no need, offendeth God no lee, if he give judgment in his fury, then did that vile butcherly fellow being great with child of Beza his doctrine, that secretly with a pistolet most treacherously murdered that great nobleman of France, the Duke of Guise, a Prince of rare virtue, which was the most horrible, & lamentable deed, that ever was dove in any time, within ⟨p. 188⟩the compass of the wide world. But peradventure those men that are set so eagerly in handling of the nature of sin,3 will show themselves great Philosophers in disputing of Gods grace, which will help to heal and cure this malady.n Good offices it seemeth, that they appoint for this grace, the which they impudently cry out to be poured into our harts, or to have sufficient ability, to withstand all sorts of sins: and place it altogether out of our reach, in the only favour of God: which favour (they say)* doth neither amend the wicked, nor purify the corrupted, nor lighten those that be in darkness, nor enrich them that want good works, but only doth hide that old heap of sins still remaining and sticking within us, by Gods winking thereat, to the intent that it be not imputed as deformed and odious in his sight: with which their vain imaginations they are so well pleased, that even* Christ himself, for no other cause in their judgements may be said to be full of grace and truth: but because that God the Father did wonderfully favour him. What manner of thing then is Justice? a certain respective relation:
To this hathm Illyricus the stādard bearer to the Magdeburgeans annexed, that his diuellish decree of originall sinne, which he holdeth to bee the most inward substance of mens soules, because (saith he) after the fall of Adam, the very Diuel himselfe doth shape them anew, & transforme them into his owne substance. This is also an vsuall saying amongst these abiects, that* all sinnes are equall; but with this condition, (lest peraduēture the Stoickes do quicken againe▪) that they be weighed in the ballance of Gods iust iudgement: as though God, which is as a most gentle iudge, would rather aggrauate, then ease our burden; and notwithstanding that he is most righteous, he would yet exaggerate the offence, & make it more then it is in very deed. By this ballāce a silly poore Tauernour that killeth a cock whē there is no need, offēdeth God no lee, if he giue iudgment in his furie, then did that vile butcherly fellow being great with child of Beza his doctrine, that secretly with arpistolet most treacherously murdred that great noblemā of Frāce, the Duk of Guise, a Prince of rare vertue, which was the most horrible, & lamētable deed, that euer was doue in any time, within ⟨p. 188⟩the compasse of the wide world. But peraduenture those men that are set so eagerly in handling of the nature of sinne,3 will shew themselues great Philosophers in disputing of Gods grace, which wil helpe to heale and cure this maladie.n Good offices it seemeth, that they appoint for this grace, the which they impudently crie out to be powred into our harts, or to haue sufficient ability, to withstand all sorts of sinnes: and place it altogeter out of our reach, in the only fauour of God: which fauour (they say)* doth neither amend the wicked, nor purifie the corrupted, nor lighten those that bee in darknes, nor inrich them that want good workes, but only doth hide that old heape of sinnes still remaining and sticking within vs, by Gods wincking thereat, to the intent that it be not imputed as deformed and odious in his sight: with which their vaine imaginations they are so well pleased, that euen* Christ himselfe, for no other cause in their iudgements may be said to be full of grace and truth: but because that God the Father did wonderfully fauour him. What manner of thing then is Iustice? a certaine respectiue relation:
mJllyri. in vari. lib. de peccat. orig. vide Heshis. in Epist. ad Illyr. An peccatū sit substantia. Call. in Antid. Conc. Trid. idem docuerat Wiclef apud Wald. lib. 2. de Sacra. c. 154. De gratia.Jllyri. in vari. lib. de peccat. orig. vide Heshis. in Epist. ad Illyr. An peccatū sit substātia. Cal. in Antid. Conc. Trid. idem docuerat VViclef apud VVald. lib. 2. de Sacra. c. 154. De gratia.
*This is most false, our men ever abhorred this doctrine.This is most false, our men euer abhorred this doctrine.
3De Gratia.
nLuth. in resp. contra Lovan. Bucer. in Joh. 1 Well. in nat. Christi. Brent. hom. 12. in Joh. Cent. lib. 1. cap. 4. De Justitia.Luth. in resp. contra Louan. Bucer. in Ioh. 1 VVel. in nat. Christi. Brent. hom. 12. in Ioh. Cent. lib. 1. cap. 4. De Iustitia.
*This is false, the grace of God begeteth justification, and sanctification followeth justification always, and necessarily.This is false, the grace of God begeteth iustification, and sanctification followeth iustification alwaies, and necessarily.
*This is false, we confess Christ is every way full of grace.This is false, we confesse Christ is euery way full of grace.
not composed of the three Theological virtues, Faith, Hope, and Charity, which do close the soul with their beauty, but only a cloaking of sin, the which whosoever can apprehend by his bare faith, that man is as sure of his salvation, as if he were already in present possession of the endless joys of heaven: but go to, let him dream of this, yet how can he assure himself of future perseverance until his death? whicho gift of perseverance whosoever wanteth; he cometh to most miserable end, though for a season he embraced justice both sincerely and zealously. Nay verily, except this thy faith (saithp Calvin) doth foreshow thee thy perseverance so infallibly, that thou canst not be deceived therein, thou oughtest to account it as a weak and feeble faith. By this point I know him to be Luther's own scholar: for aq Christian man (saith he) though he would, cannot* damn himself, but only by incredulity. I ⟨p. 189⟩will make hast to the sacraments:5 they have lest (O blessed Christ) no Sacrament, I say none, not two, not one; for their breadr is stark poison. Their Baptism, though it be true Baptism, by their judgement is nothing at all: It is not water of salvation, it is not a conduit of grace, and doth not make us partakers of Christs merits, it is but* only a bare sign of salvation. Therefore as concerning the nature of the thing, they esteem Christs Baptism no more then the outward ceremony of Saint John. If thou have it, it is well,* if thou want it, it is no hurt at all: only believe, and thou art sure to be saved before thou be baptized. What then shall we say of silly young Infants, who except they be holpen by the virtue of this Sacrament, can purchase nothing by their own faith? Rather (say the Magdeburgeans) then we will attribute any virtue to the Sacraments of Baptism, let us grant that there is faith in such infants sufficient whereby they may be saved, certain secret motions of which faith they feel in themselves; whereas without doubt, as yet they cannot discern by any sense whether they live or no. A hard case surely for poor Infants: but if this seem so hard, mark what medicines Luther will minister for it.* Better it were, saith he, to omit Baptism altogether, for except the infant believe himself, the washing of him in water is to no purpose at all.
not composed of the three Theologicall vertues, Faith, Hope, and Charitie, which do close the soule with their beautie, but only a cloaking of sinne, the which whosoeuer can apprehend by his bare faith, that man is as sure of his saluation, as if hee were already in present possession of the endlesse ioyes of heauen: but go to, let him dreame of this, yet how can hee assure himself of future perseuerance vntill his death? whicho gift of perseuerance whosoeuer wanteth; he commeth to most miserable end, though for a season hee embraced iustice both sincerely and zealously. Nay verily, except this thy faith (saithp Caluin) doth foreshew thee thy perseuerance so infalliblie, that thou canst not be deceiued therin, thou oughtest to account it as a weake and feeble faith. By this point I know him to be Luthers owne scholler: for aq Christian man (saith he) though he would, cannot* damne himselfe, but only by incredulitie. I ⟨p. 189⟩will make hast to the sacraments:5 they haue lest (O blessed Christ) no Sacrament, I say none, not two, not one; for their breadr is starke poyson. Their Baptisme, though it be true Baptisme, by their iudgement is nothing at all: It is not water of saluation, it is not a conduite of grace, and doth not make vs partakers of Christs merits, it is but* onely a bare signe of saluation. Therefore as concerning the nature of the thing, they esteeme Christs Baptisme no more then the outward ceremonie of Saint Iohn. If thou haue it, it is well,* if thou want it, it is no hurt at all: onely beleeue, and thou art sure to be saued before thou be baptized. What then shall wee say of sillie yong Infants, who except they be holpen by the vertue of this Sacrament, can purchase nothing by their owne faith? Rather (say the Magdeburgeans) then wee will attribute any vertue to the Sacraments of Baptisme, let vs grant that there is faith in such infants sufficient whereby they may be saued, certaine secret motions of which faith they feele in themselues; whereas without doubt, as yet they cannot discerue by any sense whether they liue or no. A hard case surely for poore Infants: but if this seeme so hard, marke what medicines Luther will minister for it.
*Luther speaketh of the grace of Baptism which is not lost by sin.Luther speaketh of the grace of Baptisme which is not lost by sin.
5De Sacramentis.
rCalvin. Instit. lib. 4. cap. 15. Cent. 1. lib. 1 cap. 16. Luth. lib. de cap. Babyl. Cent 2. & 5. cap. 4. Luth. aduer. Gochl. item Epist. ad Melanct. 10.2. & in Epist. ad Wald. Anabaptistas.Caluin. Instit. lib. 4. cap. 15. Cent. 1. lib. 1 cap. 16. Luth. lib. de cap. Babyl. Cent 2. & 5. cap. 4. Luth. aduer. Gochl. item Epist. ad Melanct. 10.2. & in Epist. ad VVald. Anabaptistas.
*This is false, we say not that they are only signs.This is false, we say not that they are only signes.
*This is false, he speaketh not so of Baptism.This is false, he speaketh not so of Baptisme.
*This Luther speaketh upon their supposition, who affirm that children want all faith.This Luther speaketh vpon their supposition, who affirme that children want all faith.
This tale they tell that stand wavering, what they may absolutely affirm in this point. Why then let Baltazar Pacimontanus intrude himself to strike the stroke between them,1 as an indifferent man, who being the first founder of the Anabaptists, when he could not conceive in his mind that there was any motion of faith in young children, allowed of Luther's simple shift, and abandoning the Baptism of Infants out of all Churches decreed that none should be christened until he come to years of understanding. As for the rest of the Sacraments, though that* beast with-many heads, spoken of in the Apocalypse, do belch out many horrible blasphemies ⟨p. 190⟩against them. Nevertheless because they are common at this present and have hardened our ears with the sound thereof, I will here let them pass.3 There remain certain pestiferous fragments of heretical doctrine, concerning life and manners, whichs Luther spued out upon papers, for to infect those that read his books, with such poisoned stuff, as issued out of the stinking sink of his filthy breast; listen patiently, and blush for sham, and pardon me for reciting them.* If my wife will not come, or cannot, then let my maid come to my bed. For the use of a woman is as necessary for every man, as either meat or drink or sleep is: Matrimony is better then virginity, Christ dissuaded and S. Paul dissuaded Christian people from virginity. But peradventure he will say that those are Luther's peculiar heresies. I say they are not. They are also maintained by Charke, though faintly & fearfully. Will you see any more of this stuff? why not? By how much the more wicked thou art (saith he) by so much the more art thou nigher to grace. All good works are sins; yea if God deal with us judicially, they are deadly sins, but if God deal with us mercifully, they are but small venial sins: No man thinketh of his own freewill any evil thought. The ten Commandments of almighty God, belong nothing at all to Christians. God hath no regard of our works. Those only are worthy partakers of the Lords Supper which bring with them sorrowful, afflicted, tormented, confounded and unconstant consciences. We ought to confess our sins, but it forceth not to whom. For if any man absolve thee, though it be but in *jest, if thou believe that thy sins are forgiven thee, thou art absolved.
This tale they tell that stand wauering, what they may absolutely affirme in this point. Why then let Baltazar Pacimontanus intrude himselfe to strike the stroke betweene them,1 as an indifferent man, who being the first founder of the Annabaptists, when he could not conceiue in his minde that there was any motion of faith in yong children, allowed of Luthers simple shift, and abandoning the Baptisme of Infants out of all Churches decreed that none should bee christened vntill hee come to yeares of vnderstanding. As for the rest of the Sacramentes, though that* beast with-manie heads, spoken of in the Apocalyps, doe belch out many horrible blasphemies ⟨p. 190⟩against them. Neuerthelesse because they are common at this present and haue hardned our eares with the sound thereof, I will here let them passe.3 There remaine certeine pestiferous fragments of heretical doctrine, concerning life and manners, whichs Luther spued out vpon papers, for to infect those that reade his bookes, with such poysoned stuffe, as issued out of the stincking sincke of his filthie brest; listen patiently, and blush for sham, and pardon me for reciting them.* If my wife will not come, or cannot, then let my maid come to my bed. For the vse of a woman is as necessarie for euerie man, as either meate or drinke or sleepe is: Matrimonie is better then virginitie, Christ disswaded and S. Paul disswaded Christian people from virginitie. But peraduenture he will saye that those are Luthers peculiar heresies. I say they are not. They are also maintained by Charke, though faintly & fearefullie. Will you see any more of this stuffe? why not? By how much the more wicked thou art (saith he) by so much the more art thou nigher to grace. All good works are sinnes; yea if God deale with vs iudicially, they are deadly sinnes, but if God deale with vs mercifully, they are but small veniall sinnes: No man thinketh of his owne freewill any euill thought. The tenne Commaundements of almightie God, belong nothing at all to Christians. God hath no regard of our workes. Those only are worthie partakers of the Lords Supper which bring with them sorrowfull, afflicted, tormented, confounded and vnconstant consciences. We ought to confesse our sinnes, but it forceth not to whom. For if any man obsolue thee, though it be but in
1Anabaptista.
*the Pope of Rome.
3De moribus.
sSerm. de Matri. lib. de •o. con. & ass. art. 16. Lib de vo. mona. Cha•. lib. in censor. suum Luth. Serm. de Pis. Pee. asser. art. 32 Lab. de Ser. arb. & Ser. de Moyse. lib. de cap. Babyl.Serm. de Matri. lib. de •o. con. & asse. art. 16. Lib de vo. mona. Cha•. lib. in censor. suum Luth. Serm. de Pis. Pee. asser. art. 32 Lab. de Ser. arb. & Ser. de Moyse. lib. de cap. Babyl.
*A notable slander, as all the rest which follow be: read the answer.A notable slaunder, as all the rest which follow be: reade the answere.
*This is false: for Luther speaketh not this of every man, but of the Ministers.This is false: for Luther speaketh not this of euery man, but of the Ministers.
meanes Rome in this place; here Campian you are alwaies at a nonplus, & could yet neuer pro•ue that Peter was at Rome. But you take this for granted, and as alreadie prooued; which if any man once deny, then like the Mathematicians, you haue done, and can goe no further. But why may I not reasonably think, that Peter meaneth that Babylon, which once was the chiefe Citie of the Assi•ians, in which Citie certeinly were many Iewes,
vnto whom Peter was appointed Apostle peculiarly. If I should set downe that which I could alleage in this cause, I feare I should trie your patience too much. In the meane time I allow well your confession that Rome is Babylon, and hereafter, at your leisure, you may declare vpon what occasion the name of it was altered.
.•. who seeth not that this cannot be vnderstood of auncient Rome, but of Rome when it was the habitation of Saints rather then Diuels, and the hold of the Spirit of God rather then foule spirits.
iDVR. Yet Oecumenius, Hierome, Eusebius. Tertullian, to say nothing of others, do grant it And to make question of Peters being at Rome, is as if you should doubt, whether ever Romulus, Julius Caeser, or Pompey was there. For if Cyprian, Eusebius, Do•o•heus, Epiphanius, Optatus, Hicrom, and many others may not be believed, what shall ever be certain in any History? WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies prove nothing that I have either doubted of or denied; for I desire authority of Scriptures, not the opinions of men; I desire every man who desireth salvation to weigh this one thing well. That whereas the whole government & Hierarchy of the Papacy hangeth on this foundation, that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome, yet they have no word in the Scriptures to show that he ever was so: and so the whole Papacy is hanged upon the conjectures of men, as upon a rotten thread; for what if many Histories say he was there, if the Scripture say no such thing, what assurance can be of it for matter of faith, the mind must needs be suspicious and doubtful; it is true that the received opinion is that he was there. But who knoweth not that, that which one delivereth at the first, may increase by fame, and be by many reserved to posterity. At the first an ancient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Simon Magus and saith it was at Rome, and him have many followed since: and hence from the common rumours and suspicions of men sprung up the Popes chair•. And who shall then give assurance of faith in this thing, when there is no place of Scripture for it, nay when many places are against it. These specially Galat. 2.7.9. Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome & for so many years, it was against both his order of life and his faith. Act. 28.22.23. Now they could not be so ignorant, if that S. Peter for so many years before had governed that Church: S. Paul abode in Rome two years and thence writ many Epistles, and in them spake of many of the brethren, but never once named S. Peter; supole you he would be two years from his Church? Galat. 2.1.2. But he ought rather to have been at Rome, as a good Bishop ought to be with his flock, unless you can prove he might substitute a Vicar. Besides the Histories themselves are in such variety of opinions, that you can hardly tell whom to follow: some say he came •o Rome in the first year of Claudius the Emperor, some in the second, some in the fou•••, and some in the tenth year: and it may be that none of these is true, sure it is all cannot be true.DVR. Yet Oecumenius, Hierome, Eusebius. Tertullian, to say nothing of others, do graunt it And to make question of Peters being at Rome, is as if you should doubt, whether euer Romulus, Iulius Caeser, or Pompeie was there. For if Cyprian, Eusebius, Do•o•heus, Epiphanius, Optatus, Hicrom, and many others may not be beleeued, vvhat shall euer be certeine in any History? WHIT pag. 508. All these testimonies proue nothing that I haue either doubted of or denied; for I desire authority of Scriptures, not the opinions of men; I desire euery man who desireth saluation to weigh this one thing well. That whereas the whole gouernment & Hierarchy of the Papacie hangeth on this soundation, that S. Peter was Bishop of Rome, yet they haue no word in the Scriptures to shew that he euer was so: and so the whole Papacie is hanged vpon the coniectures of men, as vpon a rotten threed; for what if many Histories say he was there, if the Scripture say no such thing, what assurance can be of it for matter of faith, the mind must needs bee suspicious and doubtfull; it is true that the receiued opinion is that hee was there. But who knoweth not that, that which one deliuereth at the first, may increase by fame, and be by many reserued to posterity. At the first an auncient writer mentioned S. Peters apposing of Symon Magus and saith it was at Rome, and him haue many followed since: and hence from the common rumors and suspi•ions of men sprung vp the Popes chair•. And who shall then giue assurance of faith in this thing, when there is no place of Scripture for it, nay when many places are against it. These specially Galat. 2.7.9. Now if S. Peter should be Bishop of Rome & for so many yeares, it vvas against both his order of life and his faith. Act. 28.22.23. Novv they could not be so ignorant, if that S. Peter for so many yeares before had gouerned that Church: S. Paul abode in Rome tvvo yeares and thence writ many Ep•stles, and in them spake of many of the brethren, but neuer once named S. Peter; supole you hee vvould bee tvvo yeares from his Church? Galat. 2.1.2. But he ought rather to haue been at Rome, as a good Bishop ought to be vvith his flocke, vnlesse you can proue he might substitute a Vicar. Besides the Histories themselues are in such •ariety of opinions, that you can hardly tell vvhom to follovv: some say he came •o Rome in the first yeare of Claud•us the Emperour, some in the second, some in the fou, and some in the tenth yeare: and it may be that none of these is true, sure it is all cannot be true.
DVR. This error is common to you and many of your fello•es: for Syricius vvas not the first, vve ha•e a direct Canon of the Councell of Carthage, vvhich numbreth this among the Apostolike tr•ditions, Carthag. 1. Can. 2. so hath Clemen• it in his Epistle to S. Iames the Lords brother. Amongest the Grecians the custome of the Priests wa• not to keepe their wiues as wiues which they bad before their Priest-bood, Epiphan. h••rel. 59. And Hierome against Vi•ilantius vigeth this auncient custome of the Church. WHIT. pag. 514. But your Gratian writeth that Syritius was the first maker of this impious law. The which many Priests before him of their owne acccrd embraced single life, yet none was compelled by law against his will: and as for the Councell of Carthage, it was held in the time of this Syricius. And so not before him, for your Cleme•s you knovv hee is of no vvorth, but a meere counterfeite. That you report of the Grecians is incredible, vvhen as in the Councell of Nice Paphuntius hindred this lavv, neither vvould the Grecians euer endure this snare: Hierome indeed produceth an old custome, but no Apostolike, nor yet perpetuall custome.
mDVR. What Catholic ever said that marriage was evil? S. Paul teacheth us to take beedo of the Manichees and Gnostics, and other heretics of that sort. WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my answer is easy: your Syricius and Innocent when they feared Ministers from marriage, used those reasons which either condemned marriages simply, or else they conclude nothing. For when they thus reason, Priests may not marry, because they must be the temple and the vessel of the Lord, and the Chapel of the holy Ghost, therefore they ought not to give themselves to chambering and uncleanness, because they ought to be holy: because they shall be polluted with carnal concupiscence, and to the unclean all things are unclean: because they who are in the flesh cannot please God. What I pray you is this else but to affirm that marriages are evil, impure, and wicked? Make these then no Catholics, or else your question is answered. To tie S. Paul to those ancient heretics only, is absurd, as if he delivered not a perpetual doctrine for all times: yea and he hath taxed not those only who condemn marriage, but who forbid them, which cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth.DVR. VVhat Catholike euer said that marriage was euill? S. Paul teacheth vs to take beedo of the Manichies and Gnostikes, and other heretikes of that sort. WHIT. pag. 516. To your question my ansvvere is easie: your Syricius and Innocent vvhen they feared Ministers from marriage, vsed those reasons vvhich either condemned marriages simplie, or els they conclude nothing. For vvhen they thus reason, Priests may not marrie, because they must be the temple and the vessell of the Lord, and the Chappell of the holy Ghost, therefore they ought not to giue themselues to chambering and vncleannes, because they ought to be holy: because they shall bee polluted vvith carnall concupiscence, and to the vncleane all things are vncleane: because they vvho are in the flesh cannot please God. What I pray you is this else but to affirme that marriages are euill, impure, and vvicked? Make these then no Catholikes, or else your question is ansvvered. To tye S. Paul to those auncient heretikes only, is absurde, as if he deliuered not a perpetuall doctrine for all times: yea and he hath taxed not those only vvho condemne marriage, but vvho forbid them, vvhich cannot be denied but your Pope and Church doth.
