A18078:162
A reply to an answer made of M. Doctor Whitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.
printed by John Stroud?, 1573
Title page typeset from the transcription.
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Concerning the exposition and sense of that place / I agree with you / and suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition / rather to note the ambition of certain / which gape greedily at these bishoprics which we have / to the end they might be saluted by the name of Lords / and honours / then to prove that one minister should not have dominion over an other. And therefore although these places be against no lawful authority of any estate or condition of men / yet as they are aptly alleged against the bishop of Rome / the one against his estate and authority simply / the other against his tyranny and evil usage of him self in that authority: so it may be aptly alleged against any other / which shall fall into the like fault of the bishop of Rome. The pureness that we boast of / is the innocency of our saviour Christ / who shall cover all our unpurenesse / & not impute it unto us. And for so much as faith * purifieth the hart / 1we doubt not / but God of his goodness hath begun our sanctification / and hope that he will make an end of it / even until the day of our Lord Jesus.
Concerning the exposition and sence of that place / I agree with you / and suppose that it is quoted of the authors of the admonition / rather to note the ambition of certayne / which gape greedely at these byshopprickes which we haue / to the ende they mighte be saluted by the name of Lordes / and honoures / then to proue that one minister should not haue dominion ouer an other. And therefore although these places be agaynst no lawfull authoritie of any estate or condition of men / yet as they are aptly alledged against the bishop of Rome / the one against his estate and authoritie simply / the other agaynst hys tyrannie and euill vsage of hym selfe in that authoritie: so it may be aptly alleaged agaynst any other / which shall fall into the like fault of the byshop of Rome. The purenesse that we boast of / is the innocencie of our sauioure Christ / who shall couer all our vnpurenesse / & not impute it vnto vs. And for so much as fayth * purifyeth the hart / 1we doubt not / but God of his goodnes hath begon our sanctification / and hope that he will make an ende of it / euen vntill the day of our Lord Iesus.
Albeit we hold divers points more purely then they do / which impugn ⟨p. 25⟩them: yet I know none that by comparison / hath either said / or written / that all those that think as we do in those points are more holy / and more unblameable in life / then any of those that think otherwise. If we say / that (in those points which we hold from them) we think soundlier then they do: we are ready to prove it. If we say also / that we live not so offensively to the world commonly / by getting so many livings into our hands / as would find four or five good learned able ministers / all the world will bear us witness. Other pureness we take not upon us. And therefore / as the name was first by the Papists maliciously invented: so is it of you very unbrotherly confirmed. Whereas you say / that they are Puritans / which suppose the church which they have devised / to be without all impurity: if you mean without sin / you do notably slander them / and it is already answered: If you mean / that those are Puritans or Catharans / which do set forth a true and perfect pattern or platform of reforming the church / then the mark of this heresy reacheth unto those / which made the book of common prayer / which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to govern this church / wherein nothing is wanting or too little / nor nothing running over / nor too much. As for the Catharans (which were the same that are otherwise called Novatians) I know no such opinion they had / & they whom you charge / are as far from their corruption as you be.
Albeit we holde dyuers poyntes more purely then they doe / which impugne ⟨p. 25⟩them: yet I know none that by comparison / hath eyther sayd / or written / that all those that thinke as we doe in those poyntes are more holy / and more vnblameable in life / then any of those that thinke otherwise. If we say / that (in those poynts which we holde from them) we thinke soundlier then they doe: we are ready to proue it. If we say also / that we lyue not so offensiuely to the world commonly / by getting so many lyuinges into our handes / as would finde foure or fiue good learned able ministers / all the worlde will beare vs witnes. Other purenes we take not vpon vs. And therefore / as the name was first by the Papistes maliciously inuented: so is it of you very vnbrotherly confirmed. Whereas you say / that they are Puritanes / which suppose the church which they haue deuised / to be without all impuritie: if you meane without sinne / you doe notably slaunder them / and it is already answered: If you meane / that those are Puritanes or Catharans / which do set forth a true and perfect patern or platforme of reforming the church / then the marke of thys heresy reacheth vnto those / which made the booke of common prayer / which you say is a perfect and absolute rule to gouerne this church / wherein nothing is wanting or too little / nor nothing running ouer / nor too much. As for the Catharans (which were the same that are otherwise called Nouatians) I know no suche opynion they had / & they whome you charge / are as farre from their corruption as you be.
You give occasion of suspicion / that your end will be scarce good / which have made so evil a beginning. For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition / that nothing should be placed in the Church / but that God hath in 1his word commanded / as though the words were not plain enough / you will give them some light / by your exposition. And what is it? you answer that it is as much as though they would say / nothing is to be tolerated in the church of Christ / touching either doctrine / order / ceremonies / discipline / or government / except it be expressed in the word of God. Is this to interpret? is it all one to say: nothing must be placed in the church: and nothing must be tolerated in the church? he hath but small judgement / that can not tell / that certain things may be tolerated and borne with for a time / which if they were to be set in and placed / could not be done without the great fault of them that should place them. Again / are these of like weight / except it be commanded in the word of God: and except it be expressed in the word of God? Many things are both commanded and forbidden / of which there is no express mention in the word / which are as necessarily to be followed / or avoided / as those / whereof express mention is made. Therefore unless your weights be truer / if I could let it / you should weigh none of my words. Hereupon you conclude / that their arguments taken ab authoritate negative, prove nothing. When the question is of the authority of a man / in deed it neither holdeth affirmatively nor negatively. For as it is no good argument to say / it is not true because Aristotle or Plato said it not: so is it not to say / it is true / because they said so. The reason whereof is / because the infirmity of man can neither attain to the perfection of any thing / whereby he might speak all things that are to be spoken of it / neither yet be free from error in those things / which he speaketh or giveth out / and therefore this argument / neither affirmatively / nor negatively / compelleth the hearer: But only induceth him to some liking or misliking of that / for which it is brought / & is rather for an orator to persuade the simpler sort: than for a disputer to enforce him that is learned.
YOu geue occasion of suspition / that your end will be skarce good / which haue made so euill a beginning. For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition / that nothing should be placed in the Church / but that God hath in 1
But for so much as the Lord God / determining to set before our eyes a perfect form of his church / is both able to do it / and hath done it / a man may reason ⟨p. 26⟩both ways necessarily. The Lord hath commanded / it should be in hy• church: therefore it must. And of the other side / he hath not commanded: therefore it must not be. And it is not hard to show / that the Prophets have so reasoned negatively. As when in the person of the Lord the Prophet saith / * whereof I have not spoken / and which never entered into my heart: and as where he 1condemneth them / * because they have not asked counsel at the mouth of the Lord. But you say / that in matters of faith and necessary to salvation it holdeth / which things you oppose afterwards and set against matters of ceremonies / orders / discipline and government: as though matters of discipline and kind of government were not matters necessary to salvation / and of faith. The case which you put / whether the bishop of Rome be head of the church / is a matter / that concerneth the government / and the kind of government of the church / and the same is a matter that toucheth faith / and that standeth upon our salvation. Excommunication / and other censures of the church / which are forerunners unto excommunication / are matters of discipline / and the same are also of faith and of salvation. The sacraments of the Lord his supper / and of baptism are ceremonies / and are matters of faith and necessary to salvation. And therefore you which distinguish between these / and say / that the former / that is matters of faith and necessary to salvation may not be tolerated in the church / unless they be expressly contained in the word of God or manifestly gathered: But that these later which are / ceremonies / order / discipline / government in the church / may not be received against the word of God / and consequently received if there be no word against them (although there be none for them) you I say distinguishing or dividing after this sort / do prove your self to be as evil a divider / as you showed your self before an expounder / for this is to break in pieces / and not to divide.
But for so muche as the Lord God / determyning to set before our eyes a perfecte fourme of hys church / is both able to doe it / and hath done it / a man may reason ⟨p. 26⟩
And it is no small injury which you do unto the word of God / to pin it in so narrow room / as that it should be able to direct us / but in the principal points of our religion: or as though the substance of religion / or some rude and unfashioned matter of building of the church were uttered in them, & those things were left out / that should pertain to the form and fashion of it: or as if there were in the scriptures only to cover the churches nakedness / and not also chains and bracelets and rings / and other jewels / to adorn her and set her out / or that to conclude / there were sufficient to quench her thirst / & kill her hunger / but not to minister unto her a more liberal / and (as it were) a more delicious and dainty diet. These things you seem to say / when you say / that matters necessary to salvation and of faith are contained in the scripture / especially when you appose these things / to ceremonies / order discipline / and government.
And it is no small iniurie which you doe vnto the word of God / to pinne it in so narow roume / as that it should be able to direct vs / but in the principall poyntes of our relygion: or as though the substance of religion / or some rude and vnfashioned matter of building of the church were vttered in them, & those things were left out / that should pertayne to the fourme and fashion of it: or as if there were in the scriptures onely to couer the churches nakednes / and not also chaines and bracelettes and rings / and other iewels / to adorne hir and set hir out / or that to conclude / there were sufficient to quench hir thirst / & kil hir honger / but not to minister vnto hir a more liberall / and (as it were) a more delicious and daintie diet. These things you seeme to say / when you say / that matters necessary to saluation and of fayth are contayned in the scripture / especially when you appose these things / to ceremonies / order dysciplyne / and gouernement.
And if you mean by matters of faith and necessary to salvation / those without which a man cannot be saved: then the doctrine that teacheth there is no free will / or prayer for the dead / is not within your compass. For I doubt not / but divers of the fathers of the Greek church / which were great patrons of free will (at lest as their words pretend) are saved holding the foundation of the faith / which is Christ. The like might be said of a number of other / as necessary doctrines / wherein men being nursled / have notwithstanding been saved. Therefore seeing that the point of the question lieth chiefly in this distinction / it had been good that you had spoken more certainly and properly of these things.
And if you meane by matters of fayth and necessary to saluation / those without which a man cannot be saued: then the doctrine that teacheth there is no free will / or prayer for the dead / is not within your compasse. For I doubt not / but dyuers of the fathers of the Greke church / which were great patrons of free wil (at lest as their wordes pretende) are saued holding the foundation of the fayth / which is Christ. The lyke might be sayd of a nomber of other / as necessary doctrines / wherein men being nusled / haue notwithstanding bene saued. Therefore seeing that the poynt of the question lyeth chiefely in this distinction / it had bene good that you had spoken more certainely and properly of these things.
But to the end it may appear / that this speech of yours / doth something take up & shrink the arms of the scripture / which otherwise are so long & large: I say that the word of God containeth the direction of all things pertaining to the church / yea of what soever things can fall into any part of mans life. For so Solomon saith / in the second chapter of the Proverbs. My son / if thou 1receive my words / and hide my precepts. &c. Then thou shalt understand ⟨p. 27⟩justice and judgement / and equity / and every good way. S. Paul saith that 2whether we eat or drink / or whatsoever we do / we must do it to the glory of God. But no man can glorify God in any thing but by obedience / and there is no obedience but in respect of the commandment and word of God: therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions. And that which S. Paul said of meats and drinks that they are sanctified unto us by 3the word of God / the same is to be understanded of all things else whatsoever we have the use of. But the place of S. Paul is of all other most clear / where speaking of those things which are called indifferent / in the end he concludeth / that whatsoever is not of faith / is sin: but faith is not but in respect of the 4word of God / therefore whatsoever is not done by the word of God / is sin. And if any will say that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and persuasion that that which he doth is well done / I grant it. But from whence can that spring but from faith / and how can we persuade and assure our selves / that we do well / but whereas we have the word of God for our warrant? so that the Apostle by a metonymy Subiecti pro adiuncto, doth give to understand from whence the assured persuasion doth spring. Whereupon it falleth out / ye forasmuch as in all our actions both public & private we ought to follow the direction of the word of God: in matters of the church and which concern all / there may be nothing done but by the word of God. Not that we say / as you charge us in these words (that no ceremony. &c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God) but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church / it is not lawful to do what men list / but they are bound to follow the general rules of the scripture / that are given to be the squire / whereby those should be squared out.
Which rules I will here set down / as those which I would have as well all orders & ceremonies of the church framed by / as by the which I will be content / that all those orders & ceremonies which are now in question / whether they be good & convenient or no / should be tried & examined by. And they are those rules / which Paul gave in such cases as are not particularly mentioned of in scripture.
Which rules I will here set downe / as those which I would haue as well al orders & ceremonies of the church framed by / as by the which I wil be content / that all those orders & ceremonies which are now in question / whether they be good & conuenient or no / should be tried & examined by. And they are those rules / which Paule gaue in such cases as are not particularly mētioned of in scripture.
The first / that they offend not any / especially the Church of God.1 The second / is (that which you cite also out of Paul) that all be done in order and comeliness. The third / that all be done to edifying.2 The last / that they be done to the glory of God.
The first / that they offend not any / especially the Church of God.1 The second / is (that which you cite also out of Paul) that all be done in order and comclynes. The thirde / that all be done to edifying.2 The last / that they be done to the glory of God.
So that you see that those things which you reckon up / of the hour / & time / & day of prayer. &c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture / yet they are not left to any / to order at their pleasure / or so that they be not against the word of God: but even by and according to the word of God they must be established: and those alone to be taken / which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited. And so it is brought to pass (which you think a great absurdity) that all things in the church should be appointed according to the word of God. Whereby it likewise appeareth / that we deny not but certain things are left to the order of the church / because they are of the nature of those which are varied by times / places / persons / & other circumstances / & so could not at once be set down & established for ever: & yet so left to the order of the church / as that it do nothing against the rules aforesaid. But how doth this follow / that certain things are left to the order of the church / therefore to make a new ministry by making an Archbishop / to alter the ministry ye is appointed / by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock / to make a deacon without appointing him his church whereof he is a deacon / & where he might exercise his charge of providing for the pore / to abrogate clean both name & office of the elder with other more: how I say doth it follow ye because the church hath power to order certain things / therefore it hath power to do so of these / which God hath ordained and established: of the which there is no time / ⟨p. 28⟩nor place / nor person / nor any other circumstance / which can cause any alteration or change? Which thing shall better appear both in the discourse of the whole book / and especially there / where you go about to show certain reasons / why there should be other government now / then was in the time of the apostles. But while you go about to seem to say much / & rake up a great number of things / you have made very evil mestin (and you have put / in one / things which are not pairs nor matches.
So that you see that those things which you recken vp / of the houre / & time / & day of prayer. &c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture / yet they are not left to any / to order at their pleasure / or so that they be not agaynst the worde of God: but euen by and according to the word of God they must be established: and those alone to be taken / which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited. And so it is brought to passe (which you thinke a great absurdity) that al things in the church should be appoynted according to the word of God. Wherby it likewise appeareth / that we deny not but certayne things are left to the order of the church / because they are of the nature of those which are varyed by times / places / persons / & other circumstances / & so could not at once be set down & established for euer: & yet so left to the order of the church / as yt it do nothing agaynst the rules aforsayde. But how doth this follow / yt certaine things are left to ye order of the church / therfore to make a new ministerie by making an Archbishop / to alter ye ministerie ye is appointed / by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock / to make a deacon without appointing him his church wherof he is a deacon / & wher he might exercise his charge of prouiding for ye pore / to abrogate cleane both name & office of ye elder with other more: how I say doth it follow ye because the church hath power to order certaine things / therfore it hath power to do so of these / which God hath ordayned and established: of the which there is no tyme /
Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put up / I will not stand to dispute / whether the Lords day which we call Sunday (being the day of the resurrection of our saviour Christ / and so the day wherein the world was renewed as the Jews sabbath was the day wherein the world was finished / and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth used for the day of the rest and serving of God) ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say / that there was no great judgement to make it as arbitrary and changeable / as the hour and the place of prayer. But where was your judgement / when you wrote / that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such / as shall contemn the common prayers and hearing the word of God? What church discipline would you have other then admonitions / reprehensions / and if these will not profit excommunication? and are they not appointed of our saviour Christ. 1There are also civill punishments / and punishments of the body likewise / appointed by the word of God in divers places / in Exodus. He that sacrificeth to other gods / and not to the Lord alone / shall dye the death. And in Deuteronomy. Thou shalt burn out the evil out of the middest of thee / that the rest may 2hear & learn and not dare do the like. The execution of this law appeareth in the Chro. by king Aza / who made a law / that all those that did not seek the Lord should 3be killed. And thus you see the civill punishment of contemners of the word & prayers.
Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put vppe / I will not stand to dispute / whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday (being the day of the resurrection of our sauiour Christ / and so the day wherein the worlde was renued as the Iewes sabboth was the day wherein the world was finished / and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God) ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say / that there was no great iudgement to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable / as the houre and the place of prayer. But where was your iudgement / when you wrote / that the scripture hath appoynted no discipline nor correction for suche / as shall contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God? VVhat churche discipline would you haue other then admonions / reprehensions / and if these will not profitte excommunication? and are they not appoynted of our sauioure Christe.
There are other for such as neglect the word / which are according to the quantity of the fault: so that whether you mean civil or ecclesiastical correction / the scripture hath defined of them both. I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemiah which the common translation calleth Ezra / of chairs in S. 1Matthew / where / by the chair of Moses our saviour Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses / doth also declare the manner which they used in teaching: Of sitting at the communion (which the Evangelist noteth to have been done of our 2Saviour Christ with his disciples) which examples are not to be lightly changed / and upon many occasions.
There are other for such as neglect the worde / which are according to the quantitie of the fault: so that whether you meane ciuil or ecclesiasticall correction / the scripture hath defined of them both. I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemias which the common translation calleth Ezra / of chaires in S. 1Mathew / where / by the chaire of Moses our sauioure Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses / doth also declare the manner which they vsed in teaching: Of sitting at the communion (which the Euangelist noteth to haue bene done of our 2Sauioure Christ with his disciples) which examples are not to be lightly chaunged / and vppon many occasions.
But to the ende it may appeare / that this speach of youres / doth something take vp & shrinke the armes of the scripture / which otherwise are so long & large: I saye that the word of God contayneth the direction of all things pertayning to the church / yea of what soeuer things can fall into any part of mans life. For so Salomon sayth / in the second chapter of the Prouerbes. My sonne / if thou 1receiue my wordes / and hyde my preceptes. &c. Then thou shalt vnderstande ⟨p. 27⟩iustice and iudgement / and equitie / and euery good way. S. Paul sayth that 2whether we eate or drynke / or whatsoeuer we do / we must do it to the glory of God. But no man can gloryfy God in any thing but by obedience / and there is no obedience but in respect of the commaundement and word of God: therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions. And that which S. Paul sayd of meates and drinkes that they are sanctifyed vnto vs by 3the word of God / the same is to be vnderstanded of all thinges else whatsoeuer we haue the vse of. But the place of S. Paul is of all other most cleare / where speaking of those things which are called indifferent / in the ende he concludeth / that whatsoeuer is not of fayth / is sinne: but fayth is not but in respecte of the 4word of God / therfore whatsoeuer is not done by the word of God / is sinne. And if any will say that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and perswasion that that which he doth is well done / I graunt it. But from whence can that spring but from fayth / and how can we perswade and assure our selues / that we do well / but whereas we haue the word of God for our warrant? so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto, doth geue to vnderstād from whence the assured persuasion doth spring. Whereupon it falleth out / ye forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke & priuate we ought to follow ye direction of ye word of God: in matters of the church and which concerne all / there may be nothing done but by the word of God. Not that we say / as you charge vs in these words (that no ceremonie. &c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God) but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church / it is not lawfull to doe what men list / but they are bound to follow the generall rules of the scripture / that are geuen to be the squire / whereby those should be squared out.
