The second reply of Thomas CartwrightThe second replie of Thomas Cartwright
The second reply of Thomas Cartwright: against Master Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Church disciplineThe second replie of Thomas Cartwright: agaynst Maister Doctor Whitgiftes second answer, touching the Churche discipline
Thomas Cartwright 1535–1603Heidelberg: printed by Michael Schirat, 1575
[32], DLXVI [i.e. DCLXVI], [14] p. · 302k words · STC 4714 · ESTC S107569
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Whatsoever is here / is eanswered: saving the contrariety assigned 2between this / an Apostle was above an Evangelist, and that there was chiefry even amongest the apostles / in that one laboured more / and had more excellent gifts then another: which how manifest an argument it is that the archbishop hath robbed him off all sense let the reader judge. Saving also that he signifieth that the difference between the Apostles must be in authority not in excellency off gifts or labours. Considering that there was amongest them in those points a most perfect equality. Which how absurd it is ⟨p. DCLXIII⟩may be considered in that some had the gift off continency / which other some had not / some travailed with their hands for their living / which other did not: and in that S. Paul / is said expressly to have laboured more then they all. To the next beside bare affirmations 3and slanders oft repeated: he answereth nothing. To the ninth: I answer not.
Whatsoeuer is here / is eanswered: sauing the contrarietie assigned 2betwen this / an Apostle vvas aboue an Euangelist, and that there was chiefrie euen amongest the apostels / in that one labored more / and had more excellent giftes then another: which how manifest an argument yt is that the archbishop hathe robbed him off all sense let the reader iudge. Sauing also that he signifieth that the difference betweene the Apostels must be in autoritie not in excellency off giftes or laboures. Considering that there was amongest them in those poinctes a most perfect equalitie. Which how absurd yt is ⟨p. DCLXIII⟩may be considered in that some had the gifte off continencie / which other some had not / some trauailed with their handes for their liuing / which other did not: ād in that S. Paul / is said expresly to haue laboured more then they all. To the nexte beside bare affirmations
That the greek word 2. Gal. 2. signifieth for the most part 1to seem: can not be denied. Whether there be any necessity to change this usual and ordinary signification in that place: I leave to the reader. Seeing first the same word in that chapter / is twice so turned: where the same both matter / and persons are spoken off. seeing also it is confessed / by M. Beza which corrected it: that the apostle speaketh not according to his own but according to the sense off his adversaries. Thirdly / seeing the cause which moved Erasmus and M. Beza to depart from that translation for that there is nothing joined to declare, wherein that seeming and appearance should be) is not so urging. For S. Paul useth oft such short / and cut speeches: which are to be supplied by other places off his: as M. Beza him self showeth in the same chap. vers. 6. I omit the number off interpreters / which have followed the old in this behalf. Howbeit I confess / that if I had known that I had in this point to do with the Geneva / M. Bezas / and Erasmus translation / and Buddies authority: I would (for reverence off their learning) have use▪ an easier word in dissenting. nether will I strive about it / wit••he D. it making little ether off or on / to the matter in hand: seeing the reason (alleged by the adm. and maintained by me) standeth still against the archbishop. For if Saint Paul / were in nothing inferior unto Saint Peter / one of those chief there mentioned: and if the making of S. Peter / to have authority over Saint Paul / be the overthrow of S. Pauls argument: then it followeth / that thadm. aptly alleged that place against the archbishop. Nether can it be alleged / to prove any degree of honour the in ministry, not only because the price which the Galatians had off those by suggestion off the false Apostles / was excessive in that they preferred those three before S. Paul: but also for that off men in the same degree and ⟨p. DCLXIIII⟩authority one may justly be honoured more then an other / in respect off gifts more excellent in him then in the rest.
That the greke worde 2. Gal. 2. signifieth for the most parte 1to seeme: can not be denied. Whether there be any necessitie to chaunge this vsual ād ordinary signification in that place: I leaue to the reader. Seing first the same word in that chapter / is twise so turned: where the same bothe matter / and persons are spoken off. seing also yt is confessed / by M. Beza which corrected yt: that the apostle speaketh not according to his owne but according to the sense off his aduersaries. Thirdly / seing the cause which moued Erasmus and M. Beza to departe from that translation for that ther is nothing ioined to declare, vvherin that seeming and apparance shoulde be) is not so vrging. For S. Paul vseth ofte suche shorte / and cut speaches: which are to be supplied by other places off his: as M. Beza him self sheweth in the same chap. vers. 6. I omit the nomber off interpreters / which haue folowed the oulde in this behalfe. Howbeit I confesse / that if I had knowne that I had in this pointe to doe with the Geneua / M. Bezas / and Erasmus translation / and Budies autoritie: I would (for reuerence off their learning) haue vse▪ an easier worde in dissenting. nether wil I striue about yt / wit••he D. yt making litle ether off or on / to the matter in hand: seing the reason (alledged by the adm. and mainteined by me) standeth still against the archbishop. For if Saint Paul / were in nothing inferiour vnto Saint Peter / one of those cheif there mētioned: and yf the making of S. Peter / to haue autoritie ouer Saint Paul / be the ouerthrow of S. Pauls argument: then yt foloweth / that thadm. aptly alledged that place againste the archbishop. Nether can it be alledged / to proue any degree of honour the in ministery, not onely because the price which the Galatheans had off those by suggestion off the false Apostels / was excessiue in that they preferred those three before S. Paul: but also for that off men in the same degree and ⟨p. DCLXIIII⟩autoritie one may iustly be honoured more then an other / in respecte off giftes more excellente in him then in the reste.
Where I showed / that our Sa. Christs calling is avowed 1just because it was contained in scripture: he saith the apostle only showed by scripture that he intruded not him self but was called off God. Where the testimonies put as causes off this that he did not glorify him self: must be also causes off his vocation / and that in such sort that if those and such like testimonies had not been / his vocation could not have been justified. where he saith none can justify his calling if it were not lawful without such a personal testimony as our Sau. Christ had: we press not all the circumstances. There being no more in that kind off office / but he alone: the testimony off it / must needs be personal. It shall be sufficient for him: to show that the Archbishops have the same testimony off the word / which the bishops or pastors. To the next I answer not: In the next / there is nothing but bare affirmations / answered abefore.
Where I shewed / that our Sa. Christs calling is auowed 1iust because yt was cōteined in scripture: he saith the apostel onely shewed by scripture that he intruded not him self but was called off God. Where the testimonies put as causes off this that he did not glorifie him selfe: muste be also cawses off his vocation / and that in suche sorte that if those and suche like testimonies had not bene / his vocation coulde not haue bene iustified. where he saith none can iustifie his calling if it were not lawfull withowt suche a personall testimonie as our Sau. Christ had: we presse not all the circumstances. Ther being no more in that kinde off office / but he alone: the testimonie off it / must needes be personall. Yt shall be sufficient for him: to shew that the Archbishops haue the same testimonie off the worde / which the bishops or pastours. To the next I answer not: In the next / there is nothing but bare affirmacions / answered abefore.
bTo that alleged that if all the church were in one Province, and one over them all in travailing with an archbishop he should bring forth a pope: he answereth / that can not be, the church being scattered throughout the world. Which I grant / having respect unto Gods election / and calling hidden from us: but that the church established in a visible and apparent from / may not (which God fo••id) be brought into one land / I hitherto hear no reason, he saith further / that the church after the ascension being in Jerusalem only, if it had had one bishop, should by my reason likewise have had a pope: which is untrue. For we join with the pastor / (and that in equal authority of government) the elders off the church: condemning all monarchical government in the pastor. The rest is canswered. The next / is danswered before. eAccused for charging the adm. to have used the papists reasons, he saith he may well do it: but reason he can show none. He denieth that he would prove one archbishop over a province by one king over a realm: yet beside he flatly faffirmeth that the form off government in the church must be according to that of the common wealth, driven to the wall / ⟨p. DCLXV⟩it is his common refuge / that by the same reason we east away Archbishops, we may likewise depose kings. His whole answer almost here / is cloured off divers divisions before: where he hath areply. And yet such is his forehead / that although he have here set before me a charger off Coleworts: yet for answering them with repetition off one line / in as few words as if I had only referred him to the former treatise / he shameth not to say / that I use nothing almost but repetitions. bTo that alleged out of Calvin / that the church doth clean one part unto an other under our Sau. Christs dominion, according to the order and form off policy, which he hath prescribed, and therefore not by a bishop of a diocese or archbishop, as those which he prescribed not: he answereth / that he speaketh off the spiritual government, and not off the external. whereby he maketh Calvin a trifling disputer. For the Papists which will have the pope a ministerial head under Christ / Confess that he alone governeth inwardly and secretly by his spirit: but that their pope is a means / whereby he doth it. Therefore Call.
bTo that alledged that if all the church vvere in one Prouince, and one ouer them all in trauailing vvith an archbishop he should bringe forthe a pope: he answereth / that can not be, the churche being scattered throwghout the worlde. Which I graunte / hauing respecte vnto Gods election / and calling hidden from vs: but that the churche established in a visible and apparant from / may not (which God fo••id) be browght into one land / I hetherto heare no reason, he sa•th further / that the church after the ascension being in Ierusalem onely, yf yt had had one bishop, should by my reason likewise haue had a pope: which is vntrew. For we ioine with the pastor / (and that in equal autoritie of gouernement) thelders off the church: condemning al monarchicall gouernement in the pastor. The rest is cāswered. The next / is danswered before. eAccused for charging the adm. to haue vsed the papistes reasons, he saith he may vvel doo yt: but reason he can shew none. He denieth that he woulde proue one archbishop ouer a prouince by one kinge ouer a realme: yet beside he flatly faffirmeth that the forme off gouernment in the church must be according to that of the cōmon wealthe, driuen to the wal / ⟨p. DCLXV⟩yt is his cōmon refuge / that by the same reason we easte away Archbishops, we may likewise depose kinges. His whole answer almost heer / is cloured off diuers diuisions before: where he hath areply. And yet suche is his forehead / that althowgh he haue heer set before me a charger off Colewories: yet for answering them with repetition off one line / in as few wordes as if I had onely referred him to the former treatise / he shameth not to say / that I vse nothing almost but repetitions. bTo that alledged out of Caluin / that the churche dothe cleane one part vnto an other vnder our Sau. Christes dominion, according to the order and forme off policīe, vvhich he hathe prescribed, and therfore not by a bishop of a diocese or archbishop, as those vvhich he praescribed not: he answereth / that he speaketh off the spirituall gouernement, and not off the externall. wherby he maketh Caluin a trifling disputer. For the Papistes which will haue the pope a ministeriall head vnder Christe / Confesse that he alone gouerneth inwardly and secretly by his spirit: but that their pope is a meanes / wherby he doth yt. Therfore Cal.
in saying that / that is done by the order and form off policy prescribed off God: stopped up that corner against them. And beside that it will be hard for him to show / that the inward working off God by his spirit is called an order and form off policy: let him answer where that order and form off policy off the lords secret working with his spirit / is prescribed: seeing the work thereof / is as the voice of the wind which we hearing can 1not tell from whence it cometh nor whet••• it will: and seeing the lord commanding his ministers to do their duty / reserveth to him self the manner and order / how and when he will work inwardly. Secondly he answereth that this policy off our Bishop and Archbishop is prescribed, although not particularly expressed in his word: as if the force off this word prescribed were not more then / contained / and as much as his particularly expressed. But I have ashowed / that he requireth also / that all church officers be expressed in the word: and what expressed meaneth is before bobserved. The reader to make up his mouth with / and as it were for a ban quetting dish. hath the next whole chapter off repetitions. which is canswered / and so is the dnext unto it.
in saying that / that is doen by the order and forme off policie prescribed off God: stopped vp that corner against them. And beside that yt will be hard for him to shew / that the inwarde working off God by his spirit is called an order and forme off policie: let him answer where that order and forme off policie off the lordes secret working with his spirit / is prescribed: seing the worke thereof / ys as the voice of the wind which we hearing can 1not tel from whēce yt cometh nor whet••• yt will: and seing the lord commaunding his ministers to doe their dwtie / reserueth to him selfe the manner and order / how and when he will worke in wardly. Secondly he answereth that this policie off our Bishop and Archbishop is praescribed, althowghe not particularly expressed in his word: as if the force off this worde prescribed were not more then / contemed / and asmuche as his particularly expressed. But I haue ashewed / that he requireth also / that al church officers be expressed in the worde: and what expressed meaneth is before bobserued. The reader to make vp his mouth with / ād as yt were for a ban quetting dish. hathe the next whole chapter off repetitions. which ys canswered / and so is the dnexte vnto yt.
Thus we are (by the grace off god) come / to an end off this treatise / wherein let the reader judge / whether it hath been proved that the offices off archbishops and archdeacons be unlawful / that they came not into the church 300. years after the ascension off our Sa. Christ: that there names are likewise unlawful by the word / forbidden by ancient councils / not to be found in any ancient writing before 400. years approached. Further whether that every congregation / ought to have a bishop: that one only may have two or moe: that they ought all to have like titles and authority. Saving that in their meetings for orders sake one by consent of the rest governeth that action / in such sort as is declared. That all these points off the bishop have ground off the word off God / and most off them showed to have remained some time after the apostles / and the traces long after. Finally / whether that even the elder Bishops when they were declined from the sincerity off gods ordinance / and the archbishops and archdeacons which he never ordained: were much more tolerable then ours: as those whose authority was without comparison less / and pomp. none at all.
Thus we are (by the grace off god) come / to an ende off this treatise / wherin let the reader iudge / whether yt hathe bene proued that the offices off archbishops and archdeacons be vnlawfull / that they came not into the church 300. yeares after the ascension off our Sa. Christe: that there names are likewise vnlawfull by the worde / forbiddē by auncient councels / not to be founde in any auncient writing before 400. yeares approched. Further whether that euery congregation / owght to haue a bishop: that one onely may haue two or moe: that they owght all to haue like titles and autoritie. Sauing that in their meetings for orders sake one by consent of the rest gouerneth that action / in suche sorte as is declared. That all these pointes off the bishop haue grounde off the word off God / and moste off thē shewed to haue remained some time after thapostels / and the traces lōge after. Finally / whether that euen the elder Bishops when they were declined from the synceritie off gods ordinance / and the archbishops and archdeacons which he neuer ordeined: were much more tollerable then ours: as those whose autority was without comparison les / and pompe. none at all.
Through desire off making no great change off the order laid forth by the Doctor / whereby the reader should be much troubled in collation of our books: and partly for that my papers went so soon to the print• whereby I could not correct that my self afterward misliked at is come to pas that there are divers things wherein by order, it might have been, better provided for memory. Which, I have partly endeavoured to help, by this direction: whereby it shall not be uneasy, to find any off the principal points, contained in this book.
Throwgh desire off making no great chaunge off the order laid forth by the Doctor / vvherby the reader should be muche troubled in collatiō of our bokes: and partly for that my papers vvent so sone to the print• vvherby I could not correct that my self aftervvard misliked at is come to pas that there are diuers thinges vvherin by order, it might haue bene, better prouided for memory. VVhich, I haue partly endeuoured to help, by this direction: vvherby yt shall not be vneasy, to finde any off the principal pointes, conteined in this book.
The scripture is a perfect rule off all actions / which can fall into mans life / aswell in defining things / unvariable / as in giving rules / whereby things variable by circumstance / may be compassed page lvij. &c. Whether refer that / wherein is showed what of Moses law remaineth / page xciij. Likewise that the Acts of the Apostles / are necessary for us to follow page clv. As appeareth namely / in the government off the church disputed throughout the whole book: and in that community they used / which is not now Anabaptisticall cc. viij. Hither also refer / that it is the virtue off a good law: to leave as little as may be / in the discretion off the judge xciiij. Also that it is one thing to be expressed: and an other / to be commanded in the scripture xlv.
THe scripture is a perfect rule off all actions / which can fall into mās life / aswell in defining thinges / vnnariable / as in giuing rules / wherby thinges variable by circunstance / may be compassed page lvij. &c. Whether refer that / wherin is shewed what of Moses law remaineth / page xciij. Likewise that the Actes of thapostles / are necessary for vs to folow page clv. As appeareth namely / in the gouernement off the church disputed throwghowt the whole book: and in that communitie they vsed / which is not now Anabaptisticall cc. viij. Hether also refer / that yt is the vertue off a good law: to leaue as litle as may be / in the discretion off the iudge xciiij. Also that yt ys one thing to be expressed: and an other / to be commaunded in the scripture xlv.
Whereupon the argument off auto•••ie off the scripture / is good 43. 81: But naught from men: especially in divine matters / xviij. and xlvij. Whether refer that the Godly writers and holy martyr died in error vj. Whereof the example brought by me off free will / is handled 54. an other brought by the D. off the millenaries although he in part / slandereth the old fathers in that behalf delij.
Wherupon the argument off auto•••ie off the scripture / is good 43. 81: But nawght from men: especially in diuine matters / xviij. and xlvij. Whether refer that the Godly writers and holie martyre died in error vj. Wheroff the example browght by me off free will / is handled 54. an other browght by the D. off the millenaries althowgh he in part / slaundereth the ould fathers in that behalf delij.
The magistrate ought to be severer / in punishing offences under the gospel: then under the law cxj. cxviij. Neglecters off the word / are punishable by the word lxx. The law off capital punishments ⟨image 354⟩/ remaineth xcviij. Contemners off the word / ought to be put to death lxviij. Murderers cij. Incestuous / and adulterous persons c. The punishing off the breaches off the second Table by death / and not off the first: is to begin / at the wrong end cxvij.
THe magistrat ought to be seuerer / in punishing offēces vnder the gospell: then vnder the law cxj. cxviij. Neglecters off the word / are punishable by the word lxx. The law off capitall punishements ⟨image 354⟩/ remaineth xcviij. Contemners off the word / ought to be put to death lxviij. Murtherers cij. Incestuous / and adulterous persons c. The punishing off the breaches off the second Table by death / and not off the first: is to begin / at the wrong end cxvij.
The Ecclesiastical discipline is prescribed in the word / as the doctrine ccccxl. Aswell under the gospel as under the law ibid. Amplified by comparison off the Ark / Tabernacle / Temple ccccxliiij. Confirmed by examples off David / and Solomon / which attempted nothing in the church government / without the express word off God / ccccxliiij. Also / off others / lxxxvj.
THe Ecclesiasticall discipline is prescribed in the word / as the doctrine ccccxl. Aswell vnder the gospell as vnder the law ibid. Amplified by comparison off the Ark / Tabernacle / Temple ccccxliiij. Confirmed by examples off Dauid / and Salomon / which attempted nothing in the church gouernement / without the expres word off God / ccccxliiij. Also / off others / lxxxvj.
That the form thereof / ought not to be always / according to the form off the common wealth cxxx. clix. ccxcviij. dciiij. That it is not always convenient / that the form of the common wealth / should be framed to the form off the church government ccxxvij. That the church government / is one off the three marks off the church liij. That it is safely taken / from the Apostles times: and dangerously from the first 500. years after them. That the external government off the church / is evil distinguished from the spiritual. That / it hindereth not the civil discipline ij.
That the form theroff / owght not to be allwaies / according to the forme off the cōmon wealth cxxx. clix. ccxcviij. dciiij. That yt ys not allwaies conuenient / that the form of the commen wealth / should beframed to the form off the churche gouernement ccxxvij. That the churche gouernement / is one off the three markes off the church liij. That yt is safely taken / from the Apostels times: and daūgerously from the first 500. yeares after them. That the externall gouernement off the church / is euill distinguished from the spiritual. That / yt hindereth not the ciuil discipline ij.
The callings un•• the ministry / are defined off in the word of God. For tha[…] • gifts necessary for the government off the church / fall into the offices prescribed in it 462. Where are rehearsed the proper gifts / whereby they are severed amongest them selves. This is also showed / by that it is not lawful / to diminish those the lord hath set: and therefore not to ad unto them cccclxiiij. Likewise by the demand the Pharisees made unto John ccccxxxvj.
THe callinges vn•• the mynistery / are defined off in the word of God. For tha〈…〉• giftes necessary for the gouernement off the church / fall into the offices prescribed in yt 462. Where are rehersed the proper giftes / wherby they are seuered amōgest thē selues. This is also shewed / by that it is not lawfull / to diminish those the lord hath set: and therfore not to ad vnto them cccclxiiij. Likewise by the demaunde the Pharisies made vnto Iohn ccccxxxvj.
