The second reply of Thomas CartwrightThe second replie of Thomas Cartwright

You answer not to the difference I show to have been / between your bishop / and Jeromes▪ you tell that I took my word (only) out off Illyricus / as you did your word off (excelling) which is untrue. For I gathered it out off Jeromes manifest words / which denieth that the bishop differeth from an elder / but in ordination: not knowing whether Illyricus hath that word or no. Nether are you helped by the college election. Because that there is great difference / between the liberty which may be used in Civil elections / and in Ecclesiastical / confirmed even by placing off bishops with us / whose ordainers are not also choosers. I have showed how the election / and ordination are done off divers: and the next divis. handleth that matter / nether is there any thing in your manifold questions / to the contrary: then all which one only reason had been a great deal better. Nether forget I my self one whit / in that I alleged out off the councils off Carthage / and Toledo: where the ordination is given to the bishops, but no word that the election belongeth unto them. Howbeit because I see you having not to answer / seek starting holes: I will not suffer you to run out thither / nether will I make it any question between us / whether the bishop may both choose / and ordain▪ it shall be enough for us / that he can not elect alone / and without the church / nor ordain alone without other ministers.

Yow answer not to the differēce I shewe to haue bene / betwene your bishop / and Ieromes▪ yow tell that I took my worde (onely) owt off Illyricus / as yow did your worde off (excellinge) which is vntrw. For I gathered yt owt off Ieromes manifeste wordes / which denieth that the bishop differeth from an elder / but in ordinacion: not knowing whether Illyricus hath that word or no. Nether are yow helped by the colledge election. Because that ther is great difference / betwene the libertie which maie be vsed in Cyuill elections / and in Ecclesiasticall / confirmed euen by placinge off bishops with vs / whose ordeiners are not also choosers. I haue shewed how the election / and ordination are doone off diuers: and the next diuis. handleth that matter / nether is there any thing in yowr manifolde questions / to the contrary: then all which one onely reason had bene a greate deale better. Nether forget I my selfe one whit / in that I alledged owt off the councells off Carthage / and Toledo: where the ordination is gyuen to the bishops, but no worde that the election belongeth vnto them. Howbeit because I see yow hauing not to answer / seeke startinge holes: I will not suffer yow to runne owte thether / nether will I make yr any question betwene vs / whether the bishop maie both chuse / and ordeyne yt shall be enowgh for vs / that he can not electe alone / and withowt the church / nor ordeine alone withowt other ministers.