A fresh suit against human ceremonies in God's worship. Or a triplication unto. D.…

If there were nothing else against them, in all the Scripture, then this place, beside which the Def. and Rejoinder can find none in all the New. Testament, for them, any indifferent man would say they are not allowed.

If ther were nothing else against them, in all the Scripture, then this place, beside which the Def. and Rejoynder can finde none in all the New. Testament, for them, any indifferent man would say they are not allowed.

Those that are devoted to the Ceremonies, may shuffle up and down, first to order, and when they are beaten thence, to Decency, and from Decency, when they can defend that no longer, to Edification, as the Rejoinder doeth: but all will not help. Let them pitch or insist upon one of these grounds, without starting, I will pawn my head, their anchor will come home to them again as finding no fast ground, either in Order, or Decency, or edification, for double significant Ceremonies (such as ours) to ride at.

Those that are devoted to the Ceremonies, may shufle up and downe, first to order, and when they are beaten thence, to Decencie, and from Decencie, when they can defend that no longer, to Edification, as the Rejoynder doeth: but all will not helpe. Let them pitch or insist upon one of these grounds, without starting, I will pawne my head, their anchor will come home to them againe as finding no fast grounde, eyther in Order, or Decencie, or edification, for double significant Ceremonies (suche as ours) to ride at.

The Def. could frame no Consequence out of any of these words, the Rejoinder saith there is one, but he cannot show it. To the contrary consequence nothing is answered of any moment.

The Def. could frame no Consequence out of any of these words, the Rejoynder sayth ther is one, but he cannot shew it. To the contrarie consequence nothing is answered of any moment.

SECT. 17. Concerning the ancient Fathers allowing of Humane Ceremonies.

1. OF these, the Repl. answered, it cannot be proved, nor is probable, that from the first beginning of the Primitive Church they brought in any new inventions. Upon this, the Rej. accusing not him alone, but others also, that they can believe no trueth cross to their opinion, because they seek honour one of another, & presume of their new traditions, as if the spirit of trueth had come only to them, or from them alone, answereth that it is a matter of fact, proved by Records of Churches, against which nothing can be said. But if he could keep-in his passion, so long, as to hear this only word, that there are no sufficient Records of any such thing, extant from the beginning, then he might see that sufficient answer is given, unto the name of all Fathers, always.

1. OF these, the Repl. answered, it cannot be proved, nor is probable, that from the first beginning of the Primitive Churche they brought in any new inventions. Vpon this, the Rej. accusing not him alone, but others also, that they can beleive no trueth crosse to their opinion, because they seeke honour one of another, & praesume of their new traditions, as if the spirit of trueth had come onely to them, or from thē alone, answereth that it is a matter of fact, proved by Records of Churches, against which nothing can be sayd. But if he could keep-in his passion, so longe, as to hear this onely word, that there are no sufficient Records of any suche thing, exstant from the beginninge, then he might see that sufficient answer is given, unto the name of all Fathers, allways.

Yet I will add one conjecture, to show, that those ⟨p. 82⟩observations which seem to have been universal, in the Primitive Church, were not so in deed, without exception. Praying toward the East, hath as ancient testimony, as any other humane Rite. Tertullian Apol. cap. 16. witnesseth, that that was one cause why the Christians were esteemed to worship the Sun. And yet Socrates, lib. 5. cap. 22. doeth witness, that at Antioch which was the first Church of Christians by name, they used not to place their Mysteries which directed their posture of prayer, toward the East, but rather toward the West. And why may we not conceive the like of Easter, as well as of this East observation?

Yet I will adde one conjecture, to shew, that those ⟨p. 82⟩observations which seem to have been universall, in the Primitive Churche, were not so in deed, without exception. Praying toward the East, hath as ancient testimonie, as any other humane Rite. Tertullian Apol. cap. 16. witnesseth, that that was one cause why the Christians were esteemed to worship the Sunne. And yet Socrates, lib. 5. cap. 22. doeth witnesse, that at Antioche which was the first Churche of Christians by name, they used not to place their Mysteries which directed their posture of prayer, toward the East, but rather toward the West. And why may we not conceyve the like of Easter, as well as of this East observation?

2. It was secondly answered, that those, Feasts, which the Primitive Church is said to have observed, were not by Canonical imposition, but voluntary accommodation to the infirmity of some, as appeareth by the variety of their observation, and Socrates his testimony. Mark now, what a Rejoinder is given? 1. He telleth us of a strange conjecture of his, even from this answer▪ viz. that the Churches held, it not only lawful, but also convenient, to impose upon themselves such Feasts. As if occasional accommodation, were all one with imposition, or voluntary joining in action for the good that is in it, were always a certain argument of holding that opinion which others do affix unto it. But if they had thought them so convenient, yet that Arg. would be of little force. For many Ceremonies were thought then convenient, which long since are universally thought otherwise of, & therefore left off, though no reason of inconvenience can be showed, which did ⟨p. 83⟩not agree to those times as well as to succeeding times, except further abuse: which cannot be denied of our Ceremonies in question, as religious use of milk, honey, & abstaining from washing ones hands for certain days after Baptism etc. 2. That which was mentioned of infirmity occasioning this accommodation, the Rej. (after his manner) crieth down as a fiction, boldly delivered, without proof, or colour, merely for opposition sake: Whereas notwithstanding it is so clear, that the infirmity of men newly converted from Judaism, and Gentilism, did bring into Christian Churches customs like unto those in use among Jews and Gentiles, that Cardinal Baronius, from that ground maintaineth many Ceremonies.¹ What wonder if the grown customs among the Gentiles (and we may add the Jews also) were such as from which, tho they were converted to Christianism, they were yet so hardly taken, that it might seem impossible to putt them quite off, what wonder I say then if the most holy Bishops have granted them place in the worship of God?

2. It was secondly answered, that those, Feasts, which the Primitive Churche is sayd to have observed, were not by Canonicall imposition, but voluntarie accommodation to the infirmitie of some, as appeareth by the varietie of their observation, and Socrates his testimonie. Marke now, what a Rejoynder is given? 1. Hee telleth us of a strange conjecture of his, even from this answer viz. that the Churches held, it not onely lawfull, but also convenient, to impose upon themselves suche Feasts. As if occasionall accommodation, were all one with imposition, or voluntarie joining in action for the good that is in it, were always a certaine argument of holding that opinion which others doe affixe unto it. But if they had thought them so cōveniēt, yet that Arg. would be of litle force. For many Ceremonies were thought then convenient, which longe since are universally thought otherwise of, & therfor left off, though no reason of inconvenience can be shewed, which did

Doctor Jackson, in his Original of Idolatry sect. 4. chap. 23. showeth the first occasion of Superstition in Christians, to have been the infirmities, whereby it came to pass, that heathenish (and Jewish) Rites, whereto men had been long accustomed, could not easily be extirpated. Where also about such accommodations, he hath this remarkable observation. To outstrip our adversaries in their own policies, or to use means abused by others to a better end, is a resolution so plausible to worldly wisdom that even Christians have mightily overreached and entangled themselves, by too much seeking to circumvent or go beyond others.

Doctor Iackson, in his Originall of Idolatrie sect. 4. chap. 23. sheweth the first occasion of Superstition in Christians, to have been the infirmities, wherby it came to passe, that heathenish (and Iewish) Rites, wherto men had been longe accustomed, could not easily be extirpated. Where also about suche accommodations, he hath this remarkable observation. To outstrip our adversaries in their owne policies, or to use meanes abused by others to a better ende, is a resolution so plausible to wordly wisedome that even Christians have mightilie overreached and intangled themselves, by too muche seeking to circumvent or goe beyond others.

About the Variety which was of old in the observation of these feasts, the Rejoinder answereth, that it notwithstanding, the agreement for the things themselves was universal. Which if he would take with a grain of salt, viz. that after some space of time, it was (for ought we know) universal, but not upon any Ecclesiastical imposition, nor upon any known grounds out of Gods word, it is the same that the Repl. affirmeth, and Socrates lib. 5. cap. 22. laboureth to confirm.

About the Varietie which was of olde in the observation of these feasts, the Rejoynder answereth, that it notwithstanding, the agreement for the thinges themselves was universall. Which if he would take with a graine of salt, viz. that after some space of time, it was (for ought we know) universall, but not upon any Ecclesiasticall imposition, nor upon any knowne groundes out of Gods word, it is the same that the Repl. affirmeth, and Socrates lib. 5. cap. 22. laboreth to confirme.

3. Mention was further made of the mischief that came in by those humane observations. To which the Rejoinder answereth, that the Anniversary solemnities have not obscured, but preserved that simplicity of the Gospel. And if they had so done, by accident Satan's malice, and mans frailty, that is nothing but what may be affirmed of Divine ordinances, But 1. the Def. his position was in general of universal Ceremonies by humane institution, and not Feasts alone? Now those first Ceremonial observations are guilty of opening that gate, for all the humane presumptions to enter into Gods house, which pressed in after them: which gate could never be shut from that day to this. 2. Those very Feasts made a composition or mixture of humane institutions with divine, and therefore did not preserve simplicity. They also were from their first rise not only equalled unto, but also extolled above the Lords day. Easter brought in a superstitions Lent to attend upon it, made Baptism wait for her Moon: and conformed our Lords Supper unto the Jewish Passover in unleavened bread, etc. ⟨p. 85⟩It was the first apple of contention among Christians, the first weapon, wherewith the Bishop of Rome played his prises against other Churches, & after slew so many Britons with, by Austin the monk. Holy-days in honour of Christ invited unto them Saints holy Days etc. 4. It is presumption, to make mens inventions as guiltless of evil consequences, as Gods holy ordinances. They are active efficacious occasions given of evil: these are only passive occasions taken.

3. Mention was further made of the mischeife that came in by those humane observations. To which the Rejoynder answereth, that the Anniversarie solemnities have not obscured, but praeserved that simplicitie of the Gospel. And if they had so doen, by accident Satans malice, and mans frailtie, that is nothing but what may be affirmed of Divine ordinances, But 1. the Def. his position was in generall of universall Ceremonies by humane institution, and not Feasts alone? Now those first Ceremoniall observations are guiltie of opening that gate, for all the humane praesumtions to enter into Gods house, which pressed in after them: which gate could never be shutte from that day to this. 2. Those very Feasts made a composition or mixture of humane institutions with divine, and therfore did not praeserve simplicitie. They also were from their first rise not onely aequalled unto, but also extolled above the Lords day. Easter brought in a superstitions Lent to attend upon it, made Baptisme wayt for her Moon: and conformed our Lords Supper unto the Iewish Passeover in unleavened bread, etc.

Neither is there any corruption of Gods ordinances, whose original occasion may not be found in mens (nay fathers) Ceremonious presumptions.

Neyther is ther any corruption of Gods ordinances, whose originall occasion may not be founde in mens (nay fathers) Ceremonious praesumtions.

4. It was finally answered by the Repl. that the always of these Feasts, cannot include the Apostolical times, and for other always, Bellarmine Cont. 1. l. 4. c. 9. hath the same plea, and the answer given unto him by our Divines, may serve here. The Rejoinder here 1. insinuateth that it is very likely, these Feasts, or some of them, were on foot while some Apostles lived: because Polycarp pretended John to have taught Easter.

4. It was finally answered by the Repl. that the allways of these Feasts, cannot include the Apostolicall times, and for other allways, Bellarmine Cont. 1. l. 4. c. 9. hath the same plea, and the answer given unto him by our Divines, may serve here. The Rejoynder here 1. insinuateth that it is very likely, these Feasts, or some of them, were on foot while some Apostles lived: because Polycarpe praetended Iohn to have taught Easter.

On foot indeed was the mystery of Antichristian corruption in the Apostles times. But that which Polycarp is said to have pretended, was for the fourteen day of the month, and is confuted by a contrary pretence of the latin Churches, from Peter and Paul. Socrat. l. 5. cap. 22. He 2. addeth, under Augustine's name that it is insolent madness, to think that not to be well done, which hath been done by all the Church, though it began after the Apostles times. Now though I find no such saying of Augustine's, in the epistle quoted ⟨p. 86⟩for it, but to the Contrary, I find this rule, that it is lawful or not lawful to believe or not to believe other witnesses or testimonies besides that of the Scriptures) so far as you see they bear or do not bear weight to make us give more credit to a thing. ¹Which being granted, the fact of the Church cannot so confirm, this or that to be right and well, as that it should be madness to deny it. Yet let it be his saying, I answer, if this be true then it must needs follow, that giving of the Communion (and that as is most likely sopped) upon opinion of necessity, cannot be denied well and good, for that (as is well known) was done generally in Augustine's time, and long before. It must follow also, that they were special insolent mad men, that first began to disallow either that, or any other ancient thing of general observation:² which Augustine would never have said, who professed of his time, that the Church of God set in the heap of chaff and tares, did only suffer many things, only ep. 119.

On foot indeed was the mysterie of Antichristian corruption in the Apostles times. But that which Polycarpe is sayd to have praetended, was for the fourteen day of the moneth, and is confuted by a contrarie praetense of the latine Churches, from Peter and Paul. Socrat. l. 5. cap. 22. He 2. addeth, under Augustines name that it is insolent madnesse, to thinke that not to be well doen, which hath been doen by all the Churche, though it beganne after the Apostles times. Now though I finde no suche saying of Augustines, in the epistle quoted ⟨p. 86⟩for it, but to the Contrarie, I finde this rule, that it is lawful or not lawfull to beleeve or not to beleeve other witnesses or testimonies besides that of the Scriptures) so far as you see they beare or do not beare weight to make us give more credit to a thinge.

He 3. distinguisheth betwixt Bellarmines, and the Defendants alleging of traditions, because Bell. spake of doctrines necessary to salvation. Which is not true for Bell. in that chapter maketh no mention of doctrines necessary to salvation: and in the next chapter but one cap. 11. he confesseth, that all things absolutely necessary to salvation, are written in the Scriptures, and (which is much more) all things that are either necessary, or profitable for all men to know.

He 3. distinguisheth betwixt Bellarmines, and the Defendants alledging of traditions, because Bell. spake of doctrines necessarie to salvation. Which is not true for Bell. in that chapter maketh no mention of doctrines necessarie to salvation: and in the next chapter but one cap. 11. he confesseth, that all thinges absolutely necessarie to salvation, are written in the Scriptures, and (which is muche more) all thinges that are eyther necessarie, or profitable for all men to know.

SECT. 18.19. Concerning Protestants witnessing against the Negative argument from Scripture.