A19884:507
A19884:507
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.An apologeticall reply to a booke called an ansvver to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his wrightings. By Iohn Davenporte BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
IN this Section the Answerer doth, in his policy, so express the ways of accommodation propounded by others, as may best conduce to the justifying of his way, and to the reflecting of some suspicion of obstinacy upon me, for not yielding thereunto, but how truly let the Reader judge, upon the examination of particulars.
IN this Section the Answerer doth, in his policy, so expresse the wayes of accommodation propounded by others, as may best conduce to the justifying of his way, and to the reflecting of some suspicion of obstinacy upon me, for not yeelding thereunto, but how truely let the Reader judge, upon the examination of particulars.
Ans. First, He intimateth that Mr. Pots had long joined with him, in that order of administration of Baptism, which he required me to observe.] Reply. Ans: Mr. Pot was a man unknown to me, in his life time. Since his death, some things which are reported of him, and, of his sufferings in that place (both by Dutch and English, by whom he was generally beloved and pitied) do give me much assurance of his faithfulness. How this good man approved of their manner of baptising (in the case now questioned) appeareth by his own expressions to some members of that Church, who are yet alive, to whom he declared that he accounted it a grievance, and that he had a purpose to seek redress of it, at the Synod. Whether he did so, or not, the Answerer knoweth best, and with what success. But this showeth, with what affection this good man joined with him therein, and how far he was from approving this custom.
Ans. First, He intimateth that Mr. Pots had long joyned with him, in that order of administration of Baptisme, which he required me to observe.] Reply. Ans: Mr. Pot was a man unknowne to me, in his life time. Since his death, some things which are reported of him, and, of his sufferings in that place (both by Dutch and English, by whom he was generally beloved and pittyed) doe give me much assurance of his faythfullnes. How this good man approved of their manner of baptising (in the case now questioned) appeareth by his owne expressions to some members of that Church, who are yet alive, to whom he declared that he accounted it a greivance, and that he had a purpose to seeke redresse of it, at the Synod. Whether he did so, or not, the Answerer knoweth best, and with what successe. But this sheweth, with what affection this good man joyned with him therein, and how farr he was from approving this custom.
Secondly. He intimateth that this advise of the five Dutch Preachers for accommodation proceeded from his willingness to accommodate ⟨p. 126⟩me.] If this were really so; why did the Answerer refuse all the means of accommodation, which I propounded, and knowing that no way would accommodate me, but that which would secure me from future trouble about this matter, when he had rejected that which would have ended the difference, seemeth willing to yield to any other way. What is this, but, as when a man that hath promised to do any kindness that another shall request at his hands, being entreated to help him, in such a strait, with money or countenance (or the like, his case necessarily requiring it, and the other being very well able to do it) he should answer, I will do any thing but this. Will any man value the friendship, or fair pretences of such an one.
Secondly. He intimateth that this advise of the five Dutch Preachers for accomodation proceeded from his willingnes to accommodate ⟨p. 126⟩me.] If this were really so; why did the Answerer refuse all the meanes of accommodation, which I propounded, and knowing that no way would accommodate me, but that which would secure me from future trouble about this matter, when he had rejected that which would have ended the difference, seemeth willing to yeeld to any other way. What is this, but, as when a man that hath promised to doe any kindnes that another shall request at his hands, being intreated to helpe him, in such a streight, with mony or countenance (or the like, his case necessarily requiring it, and the other being very well able to doe it) he should answer, I will doe any thing but this. Will any man value the freindship, or faire pretences of such an one.
Thirdly. He produceth a Copy of the advise of the Dutch preachers set down in writing by themselves in his house, in Dutch, thence, by the appointment of the rest, one of them translated it into latin (which was sent to me) and now is by him out of latin translated into English. Now that the Reader may see how much he is abused, by this false translation of that writing, I will publish [Greek or Hebrew], the very writing it self verbatim, without alteration of a syllable as I received it from them, and then compare this translation with it.
Thirdly. He produceth a Copy of the advise of the Dutch preachers set downe in wrighting by themselves in his house, in Dutch, thence, by the appoyntment of the rest, one of them translated it into latine (which was sent to me) and now is by him out of latine translated into English. Now that the Reader may see how much he is abused, by this false translation of that wrighting, I will publish 〈non-Latin alphabet〉, the very wrighting it selfe verbatim, without alteration of a syllable as I received it from them, and then compare this translation with it.
The Latin copy, word for word. Nos infra-scripti Pastores Ecclesiae Belgicae in civitate Amsteldamensi, a viro Reverendo D. Pageto, fiddly pastor in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ ejusdem civitatis, nec non a venerandis fratribus Senioribus ac Diaconis ejusdem Ecclesiae Anglicanae, specialiter requisiti ac fraternè rogati, ut privatum nostrum judicium in causa vocationis (quae ab universâ Ecclesiâ praedictâ videtur expeti) Reverendi, Clarissimi, Doctissimique viri D. DAVENPORTII sincerè declarare, atque exponere non recusemus, idque in casu illo unico particularly, spectante Baptismum eorum. infantium, qui in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ baptizandi offeruntur; Re totâ utrinque benè intellectâ, ritè perpensâ, et ad normam Verbi Dei, ordinemque receptum in Ecclesijs Reformatis harum Provinciarum, in quibus praedicta Ecclesia Anglicana sese membrum profiretur sub Class Amsteldamensi, probè examinatâ, ⟨p. 127⟩sincerè, ac coram Deo, in bonâ conscientiâ responsum damus, atque declaramus; Nihil magis nobis in votis esse, quam ut praedictus D. Davenportius cujus insignis eruditio, et singularis pietas ab omnibus fratribus Anglicanis apprime probatur; laudaturque quemque hoc ipso nomine, nec non ob alias virtutes ejus laudabiles, etiam ipsi D. Pageto charissimum esse intelligimus, ad ministerium Ecclesiae Anglicanae praedictae legitime promoveatur. Bonum insuper ipsius Zelum ac studium de parentum ac susccptorum istorum liberorum praeviô aliquô examine privatô in religione Christianâ instituendô, quam maximè quidem nobis probari, de re ipsâ tamen ita nos statuere, ut praedictum illud examen, quantum Ecclesiae Anglicanae ferret aedificatio, instituatur, sed si fortè vel parentes, susceptoresve istud accedere ac subire renuant, vel ob temporis brevitatem, aut alijs justis de causis fieri illud non queat, vel etiam qui accesserint, fratris vel fratrum examinantium judicio non videbuntur, pro isto tempore, satisfacere, ipse infans cujus parents, susceptoresve constat esse Christianos, quique Christianam religionem, ad lectionem liturgiae Sacramenti Baptismi publicè coram Ecclesia profitentur, a Baptismo propterea minime arceatur, aut baptizarì recusetur, sed ut ejusmodi ignorantes parents, susceptoresve, post infantem baptizatum ulterĭus postea, quoad fieri potest, edoceantur;
The Latine copy, word for word. Nos infra-scripti Pastores Ecclesiae Belgicae in civitate Amsteldamensi, a viro Reverendo D. Pageto, fideli pastore in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ ejusdem civitatis, nec non a venerandis fratribus Senioribus ac Diaconis ejusdem Ecclesiae Anglicanae, specialiter requisiti ac fraternè rogati, ut privatum nostrum judicium in causa vocationis (quae ab universâ Ecclesiâ praedictâ videtur expeti) Reverendi, Clarissimi, Doctissimique viri D. DAVENPORTII sincerè declarare, atque exponere non recusemus, idque in casu illo unico particulari, spectante Baptismum eorum. infantium, qui in Ecclesiâ Anglicanâ baptizandi offeruntur; Re totâ utrinque benè intellectâ, ritè perpensâ, et ad normam Ʋerbi Dei, ordinemque receptum in Ecclesijs Reformatis harum Provinciarum, in quibus praedicta Ecclesia Anglicana sese membrum profiretur sub Classe Amsteldamensi, probè examinatâ,
quoniam, scilicet, infants Christianorum suorum parentum, susceptorumve, vel inscitiam, vel etiam ejusmodi inobedientiam far ac luere non debent. Si quis tamen casus ullus alius obveniat, quo minus infans oblatus baptizandus videatur, ut tum totius presbyterij Anglicani, vel etiam, si necesse fuerit, aut commodè fieri possit, Classis Amsteldamensis judicium interveniat, audiatur, atque in eo acquiescatur. Sic actum, et transactum in aedibus D. Pageti. Die 20. Januarij 1634. Joannes le Mairius. Jacobus Triglandius. Henricus Geldorpius. Rudolphus Petri. Jacobus Laurentius.
quoniam, scilicet, infantes Christianorum suorum parentum, susceptorumve, vel inscitiam, vel etiam ejusmodi inobedientiam ferre ac luere non debent. Si quis tamen casus ullus alius obveniat, quo minus infans oblatus baptizandus videatur, ut tum totius presbyterij Anglicani, vel etiam, si necesse fuerit, aut commodè fieri possit, Classis Amsteldamensis judicium interveniat, audiatur, atque in eo acquiescatur. Sic actum, et transactum in aedibus D. Pageti. Die 20. Ianuarij 1634. Ioannes le Mairius. Iacobus Triglandius. Henricus Geldorpius. Rudolphus Petri. Iacobus Laurentius.
2. The translation word for word. We the underwritten Ministers of the Dutch Church in the city of Amsterdam, being specially and lovingly requested and ⟨p. 128⟩desired of the Reverend Mr. PAGET, a faithful Pastor i• the English Church of the same city, as also the the Reverend brethren the Elders and Deacons of the same English Church, that we would not refuse sincerely to declare & show our private judgment about the calling of the Reverend, most famous, & learned Mr. DAVENPORT, which seems to be desired of the whole Church aforesaid; and that in this particular case alone, concerning the Baptism of those infants, which are offered to be baptised in the English Church: having well understood and duly weighed the whole matter, on both sides, and having throughly examined it, according to the rule of Gods word, and the order received in the Reformed Churches of these Provinces, in which the aforesaid English Church doth profess it self a member, under the Classis of Amsterdam, we do sincerely, and in the presence of God, with good conscience answer, and declare, that we desire nothing more, then that the foresaid Mr. DAVENPORT, whose notable learning and singular piety is much approved and commended of all the English our brethren; whom also, in this regard, and for his other commendable gifts, we understand to be most dear unto Mr. PAGET, may be lawfully promoted unto the Ministry of the English Church aforesaid: we do also greatly approve of his good Zeal and care of having some precedent private examination of the parents, and sureties of these children in the Christian Religion; yet, touching the matter it self, we do so judge, that this aforesaid examination be ordained, so far as may stand with the edification of the English Church;
2. The translation word for word. We the underwritten Ministers of the Dutch Church in the citty of Amsterdam, being specially and lovingly requested and ⟨p. 128⟩desired of the Reverend Mr. PAGET, a faithfull Pastour i• the English Church of the same city, as also the the Reverend brethren the Elders and Deacons of the same English Church, that we would not refuse sincerely to declare & shew our private judgment about the calling of the Reverend, most famous, & learned Mr. DAVENPORT, which seemes to be desired of the whole Church aforesaid; and that in this particular case alone, concerning the Baptisme of those infants, which are offered to be baptised in the English Church: having well understood and duely weighed the whole matter, on both sides, and having throughly examined it, according to the rule of Gods word, and the order received in the Reformed Churches of these Provinces, in which the aforesaid English Church doth professe it selfe a member, under the Classis of Amsterdam, we doe sincerely, and in the presence of God, with good conscience answer, and declare, that we desire nothing more, then that the foresaid Mr. DAVENPORT, whose notable learning and singular piety is much approoved and commended of all the English our brethren; whom also, in this regard, and for his other commendable gifts, we understand to be most deare unto Mr. PAGET, may be lawfully promoted unto the Ministry of the English Church aforesaid: we doe also greatly approove of his good Zeale and care of having some precedent private examination of the parents, and sureties of these children in the Christian Religion; yet, touching the matter it selfe, we doe so judge, that this aforesaid examination be ordained, so farr as may stand with the edification of the English Church;
but if haply the parents or sureties shall refuse to come, and undergo this examination, or if, for the shortness of time, or, for other just causes, it can not be done, or, if those that do come, shall not seem, for that time, to satisfy the judgment of the Brethren, one or more that do examine them, that yet the infant, whose parents & sureties are manifest to be Christians, & which publicly before the Church do profess Christian Religion at the reading of the liturgy of the Sacrament of Baptism, shall not therefore be excluded or deprived thereof▪ but that such ignorant ⟨p. 129⟩parents & sureties be further instructed, after the infant be baptised, to wit, because the infants of Christians ought not to bear & suffer the punishment of the ignorance, or yet of such disobedience of their parents, or sureties. If yet any other case fall-out, whereby it may seem that the infant presented should not be baptised, that then the judgment of the whole English Presbytery, or also, if need be, and if conveniently it may be done, that the judgment of the Classis of Amsterdam be obtained and rested in. So was it done and transacted in the house of Mr. PAGET the 28. day of January 1634.
but if haply the parents or sureties shall refuse to come, and undergoe this examination, or if, for the shortnes of time, or, for other just causes, it can not be done, or, if those that doe come, shall not seeme, for that time, to satisfye the judgment of the Brethren, one or more that doe examine them, that yet the infant, whose parēts & sureties are manifest to be Christiās, & which publickly before the Church doe professe Christian Religion at the reading of the leiturgie of the Sacrament of Baptisme, shall not therefore be excluded or deprived thereof▪ but that such ignorant ⟨p. 129⟩parēts & sureties be further instructed, after the infāt be baptised, to wit, because the infāts of Christiās ought not to beare & suffer the punishmēt of the ignorance, or yet of such disobedience of their parēts, or sureties. If yet any other case fall-out, whereby it may seeme that the infant presented should not be baptised, that then the judgment of the whole English Presbytery, or also, if need be, and if conveniently it may be done, that the judgment of the Classis of Amsterdam be obtayned and rested in. So was it done and transacted in the house of Mr. PAGET the 28. day of Ianuary 1634.
Here it must be noted that the Answerer pretendeth to publish this writing. 1. So as it was done▪ and transacted in his house the 28. day of January 1634. 2. So as it was written down and read before him, when they enquired of him, whether he, for his part, did rest therein, and he signified his consent with them. These things being premised, J demand, by what pretence, will the Answerer defend or excuse this his translation. Let me, without offence, desire to know, why he hath translated quorum parents, susceptoresve constat esse Christianos, whose parents and sureties are manifest to be Christians? when, according to their writing, it should be translated whose parents or sureties are manifest to be Christians? Here is [or] a disjunctive particle changed into [and] a particle copulative, to the manifest alteration of the sense of their words. That this is not the error of the printer, but done purposely, by the author, appeareth from his constant private report, that I refused to baptise the children of such, whose parents were manifest Christians. To make this good, the Reader hath a false translation obtruded upon him. I demand therefore, if that disjunctive expression of the five Dutch Ministers in their writing [viz, parents, or sureties] were justifiable, why doth he alter it into a copulative expression. [viz parents, and sureties?] If it were not justifiable, why did he signify his consent with them, and that he, for his part, rested therein? 2. Why am J blamed, yea, rejected, for not resting in it? what will he, what can he say, in excuse thereof? That the Dutch preachers were willing afterwards, upon my showing my dislike, to change ⟨p. 130⟩[ve into que] or, into, and, and therefore he altered it. I answer 1. such a thing was in speech, but never done: for when we began to take pen and paper and to wright down agreements on both sides, after some little discourse, they altered their minds, saying that they had no commission to make any agreements, till they had acquainted the Classis therewith, which they would do. And after that time, they never spake more of altering any thing. So it stood, and standeth to this day unaltered. 2. Suppose it had been altered by them (as it was not) yet the Answerer will have no advantage thereby:
Here it must be noated that the Answerer pretendeth to publish this wrighting. 1. So as it was done▪ and transacted in his house the 28. day of Ianuary 1634. 2. So as it was written downe and read before him, when they enquired of him, whether he, for his part, did rest therein, and he signifyed his consent with them. These things being premised, J demand, by what pretence, will the Answerer defend or excuse this his translation. Let me, without offence, desire to know, why he hath translated quorum parentes, susceptoresve constat esse Christianos, whose parents and suretyes are manifest to be Christians? when, according to their wrighting, it should be translated whose parents or suretyes are manifest to be Christians? Here is [or] a disjunctive particle changed into [and] a particle copulative, to the manifest alteration of the sense of their words. That this is not the errour of the printer, but done purposely, by the authour, appeareth from his constant private report, that I refused to baptise the childrē of such, whose parents were manifest Christians. To make this good, the Reader hath a false translation obtruded upon him. I demand therefore, if that disjunctive expression of the five Duth Ministers in their wrighting [viz, parents, or suretyes] were justifyable, why doth he alter it into a copulative expression. [viz parents, and suretyes?] If it were not justifyable, why did he signify his consent with them, and that he, for his part, rested therein? 2. Why am J blamed, yea, rejected, for not resting in it? what will he, what can he say, in excuse thereof? That the Dutch preachers were willing afterwards, upon my shewing my dislike, to change
for he professeth to translate it according to that copy, wherein he signified his consent with them, and required that I should rest, which is apparently falsified.
for he professeth to translate it according to that copy, wherein he signifyed his consent with them, and required that I should rest, which is apparently falsifyed.
Fourthly, He blameth me for complaining that he dealt extremely with me, and rejected all my labour for a peaceable composing, prudent accommodating, and brotherly ending of matters between him and me privately, or by the counsel of the Elders of his own Church, nor would hearken to my advise without consent of the Classis. All these reports, he saith, are untruths. And this writing, he saith, witnesseth for him, &c. Three things I affirm in those writings, and they are all true.
Fourthly, He blameth me for complaining that he dealt extreamely with me, and rejected all my labour for a peaceable composing, prudent accommodating, and brotherly ending of matters betweene him and me privately, or by the counsail of the Elders of his owne Church, nor would hearken to my advise without consent of the Classis. All these reports, he sayth, are untruths. And this wrighting, he sayth, witnesseth for him, &c. Three things I affirme in those wrightings, and they are all true.
First, that he rejected my labour for accommodation. The truth of that appeareth in that himself said, in the beginning of this Section, that he offered, that if any other convenient way of accommodation could be found out, he would willingly hearken to it: Let it be noted that he saith, any other, and thereby plainly refused that which was propounded by me? else why is any other way sought.
First, that he rejected my labour for accommodation. The truth of that appeareth in that himselfe said, in the beginning of this Section, that he offered, that if any other convenient way of accommodation could be found out, he would willingly hearken to it: Let it be noated that he sayth, any other, and thereby plainly refused that which was propounded by me? else why is any other way saught.
Secondly, that he would not yield any brotherly moderation unto me, and refused all means of accommodation. The truth hereof appeareth in the means which he embraced, or, rather put those Ministers upon to propound to me (having prepossessed them with causeless jealousies) when it is required, that I should rest in a writing (which himself is loath to translate aright, that the Reader may know the whole truth) wherein I am advised to baptize all children, whose parents, or sureties are Christians, by which accommodation, I shall be brought to do the thing which ⟨p. 131⟩I judge unlawful. For, if a Christian surety may give right to an infant for baptism, whose parents are neither of them Christians, and such midwives, or nurses, or others as take no future care of the child may pass for sureties, and must be accounted manifest Christians, if they nod the head, or say yea, at the reading or pronouncing of the formalier by the minister, though no man knoweth what they are, nor themselves, it may be, understand a word that is said to them; who seeth not that the sacred ordinance of Baptism is hereby made common, and so to be promiscuously administered, according to this writing?
Secondly, that he would not yeeld any brotherly moderation unto me, and refused all meanes of accommodation. The truth hereof appeareth in the meanes which he embraced, or, rather put those Ministers upon to propound to me (having praepossessed them with causeles jealousyes) when it is required, that I should rest in a wrighting (which himselfe is loath to translate aright, that the Reader may know the wholl truth) wherein I am advised to •aptize all children, whose parents, or suretyes are Christians, by which accomodation, I shall be brought to doe the thing which ⟨p. 131⟩I judge unlawfull. For, if a Christian surety may give right to an infant for baptisme, whose parents are neither of them Christians, and such midwives, or nurses, or others as take no future care of the child may passe for suretyes, and must be accounted manifest Christians, if they nodd the head, or say yae, at the reading or pronouncing of the formalier by the minister, though no man knoweth what they are, nor themselves, it may be, understand a word that is sayd to them; who seeth not that the sacred ordinance of Baptisme is hereby made common, and so to be promiscuously administred, according to this wrighting?
Thirdly, that he would not hearken to my advice without consent of the Classis. 1. That this is true, he must confess, unless he will deny his own words: for himself said so to me, & he knoweth it, 2. The event showeth it. For though he would have me to rest in this writing (without consent of the Classis) yet he well knew this to be no way of accommodation, hut a mere snare to me.
Thirdly, that he would not hearken to my advice without consent of the Classis. 1. That this is true, he must confesse, unles he will deny his owne words: for himselfe sayd so to me, & he knoweth it, 2. The event sheweth it. For though he would have me to rest in this wrighting (without consent of the Classis) yet he well knew this to be no way of accommodation, hut a mere snare to me.