A19884:678
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
That which here, he calleth an order, will, upon examination, be found very far from accommodating me. I will wright it down as I received it from the Elders, out of the note, which I have in keeping. Jan. 19. 1634. The Consistory being gathered, Elders, and Deacons together, it was demanded, whether that all persons being no members should be sent unto Mr. D. to desire the baptism of their children, and to make confession to him, for his satisfaction in his administration of that Sacrament? The answer was by all voices, yea, if Mr. D. can be persuaded thereunto. And for the better, and more convenient bringing of the parents or presenters of the children to the Minister, it is agreed, by most voices in Consistory, that Th: A. the Coster shall bring or direct the parties to the Ministers house. Afterward, this question was propounded by the Answerer, & written down in these words. Whether, if persons ignorant, being willing to receive instruction, although not presently able to render a reason, shall be sent away by him, or admitted, to wit, they approving of the doctrine of baptism taught in these Churches, and as by us usually is propounded? A Copy of this pretended order, with the questionw, as brought to me by some of the Elders to see what answer J would make to them both. Which when I had considered, I found the order too short, and the question captious.
THat which here, he calleth an order, will, upon examination, be found very farr from accommodating me. I will wright it downe as I received it from the Elders, out of the noate, which I have in keeping. Ian. 19. 1634. The Consistory being gathered, Elders, and Deacons together, it was demanded, whether that all persons being no members should be sent unto Mr. D. to desire the baptisme of their children, and to make confession to him, for his satisfaction in his administration of that Sacrament? The answer was by all voyces, yea, if Mr. D. can be persuaded thereunto. And for the better, and more convenient bringing of the parents or presenters of the children to the Minister, it is agreed, by most voyces in Consistory, that Th: A. the Coster shall bring or direct the partyes to the Ministers house. Afterward, this question was propounded by the Answerer, & written downe in these words. Whether, if persons ignorant, being willing to receive instruction, allthough not presently able to render a reason, shall be sent away by him, or admitted, to witt, they approving of the doctrine of baptisme taught in these Churches, and as by us usually is propounded? A Copy of this pretended order, with the questionw, as brought to me by some of the Elders to see what answer J would make to them boath. Which when I had considered, I found the order too short, and the question captious.
First for the order J let these five things be duly weighed.
First for the order J let these five things be duely weighed.
1. The Answerer dateth this order Jan. 15. which the Elders ⟨p. 178⟩date Jan: 19. as he dated the ministers writing to me Jan: 28. which themselves, in their latin copy to me, dated Jan: 20. which difference is not of much consequence, only it showeth that it is not safe for the Reader to be too confident of the Answerers memory.
1. The Answerer dateth this order Ian. 15. which the Elders ⟨p. 178⟩date Ian: 19. as he dated the ministers wrighting to me Ian: 28. which themselves, in their latine copy to me, dated Ian: 20. which difference is not of much consequence, only it sheweth that it is not safe for the Reader to be too confident of the Answerers memory.
2. Where as I propounded three ways of accommodation (as the eleventh Section showeth) here is but one of them propounded in the Consistory.
2. Where as I propounded three wayes of accommodation (as the eleventh Section sheweth) here is but one of them propounded in the Consistory.
3. That one is otherwise propounded then I expressed it. For I did not desire that all, whose children should be presented to baptism, should be sent to me, but only that it should be so, when it fell into my course to administer that Sacrament (my motion being that we might not perform it jointly, but severally, and alternis vicibus) neither did I require that they should make confession to me, but that I might speak with them, before they presented them in public, that I might have some knowledge of them, by private conference with them, to prevent public disturbance.
3. That one is otherwise propounded then I expressed it. For I did not desire that all, whose children should be presented to baptisme, should be sent to me, but only that it should be so, when it fell into my course to administer that Sacrament (my motion being that we might not performe it joyntly, but severally, and alternis vicibus) neither did I require that they should make confession to me, but that I might speake with them, before they presented them in publick, that I might have some knowledge of them, by private conference with them, to prevent publick disturbance.
4. The course, whereupon they agreed for accommodation, was not sufficient. For 1. many present their children to Baptism that acquaint not Th. A. with it before hand. The Answerer told me that they come many times in the sermon time, no man having knowledge thereof before. How shall Tho: A. send such to me? 2. They that do acquaint him with their purpose of presenting their children, what if they will not come to me, upon his persuasion? Who seeth not that I am, in such cases, and the like, as far to seek for accommodation, as if no order had been made? I told the Elders that this would not be sufficient, unless it were added, that, no infants should be presented in public to baptism, whose parents are not members of the Church, before the minister had received satisfaction concerning the parents, in private. To this purpose, I required that a firm order should be made in the Consistory, to secure me from further trouble about this point, which the Elders promised, and endeavoured to effect (as I was told) but the Answerer resisted it, refusing his consent thereunto, without the consent of the Classis.
4. The course, whereupon they agreed for accommodation, was not sufficient. For 1. many present their children to Baptisme that acquaint not Th. A. with it before hand. The Answerer told me that they come many times in the sermon time, no man having knowledge thereof before. How shall Tho: A. send such to me? 2. They that doe acquaint him with their purpose of presenting their children, what if they will not come to me, upon his persuasion? Who seeth not that I am, in such cases, and the like, as farr to seeke for accommodation, as if no order had bene made? I told the Elders that this would not be sufficient, unlesse it were added, that, no infants should be presented in publick to baptisme, whose parents are not members of the Church, before the minister had received satisfaction concerning the parents, in private. To this purpose, I required that a firme order should be made in the Consistory, to secure me from further trouble about this point, which the Elders promised, and indeavoured to effect (as I was told) but the Answerer resisted it, refusing his consent thereunto, without the consent of the Classis.
5. The offer which he pretended that he voluntarily made, for the enlarging of this order, and my further accommodation, to wit, that he would send to me those parents, that should come to him &c. and so, departing from his right, he was content to refer the whole work of examination to my discretion, is a vain boast of false liberality. For. 1. few, if any, come to him to advertise him thereof. 2. If he should speak to them, they would choose, and it, may be, refuse, and make contention, if a firm order were not made to prevent it. 3. His referring of the whole work of examination to me, was cast in for a pretence, to evade the first mean of accommodation propounded by me: and by the second course,1 which J propounded for accommodation also, it may appear, that this offer was not for the accommodation which I desired, but to hinder it rather.
5. The offer which he pretended that he voluntarily made, for the inlarging of this order, and my further accommodation, to wit, that he would send to me those parents, that should come to him &c. and so, departing from his right, he was content to referr the wholl worke of examination to my discretion, is a vaine boast of false liberality. For. 1. few, if any, come to him to advertise him thereof. 2. If he should speake to them, they would chuse, and it, may be, refuse, and make contention, if a firme order were not made to prevent it. 3. His referring of the wholl worke of examination to me, was cast in for a pretence, to evade the first meane of accommodation propounded by me: and by the second course,1 which J propounded for accommodation also, it may appeare, that this offer was not for the accommodation which I desired, but to hinder it rather.
Secondly, for the question.] Any one may see, it was captious. For. 1. Why doeth he speak only of knowledge, when I would (as he knoweth) be satisfied concerning other things, as well as their knowledge? 2. Why doeth he speak of the measure and degree of knowledge, so obscurely and suspiciously? 3. Why was this question added to the order? Was it not to show that the order should no further stand, then he received satisfaction in my answer to his question? And hereby two things are manifested. 1. that the order was not absolute, but conditional, if I could be persuaded thereunto. 2. that I did not approve of this order, as sufficient, as may further appear in my dislike of his question, whereunto, if my answer had been to his content, to what end did he procure the five Ministers to sign that writing which was sent to me afterwards, as him self confesseth in the beginning of this Section? It had been superfluous, and to no purpose, if the matter had been before concluded amongst our selves.
Secondly, for the question.] Any one may see, it was captious. For. 1. Why doeth he speake only of knowledge, when I would (as he knoweth) be satisfyed concerning other things, as well as their knowledge? 2. Why doeth he speake of the measure and degree of knowledge, so obscurely and suspiciously? 3. Why was this question added to the order? Was it not to shew that the order should no further stand, then he received satisfaction in my answer to his question? And hereby two things are manifested. 1. that the order was not absolute, but conitionall, if I could be persuaded thereunto. 2. that I did not approve of this order, as sufficient, as may further appeare in my dislike of his question, whereunto, if my answer had bene to his content, to what end did he procure the five Ministers to signe that wrighting which was sent to me afterwards, as him selfe confesseth in the beginning of this Section? It had bene superfluous, and to no purpose, if the matter had bene before concluded amongst our selves.
For a Conclusion of this Section, to satisfy the Reader that this was to be called rather a proposition or motion about an order to be deliberated upon, then an order perfected by mature deliberation, these Considerations may be added to what hath been said.
For a Conclusion of this Section, to satisfye the Reader that this was to be called rather a proposition or motion about an order to be deliberated upon, then an order perfected by mature deliberation, these Considerations may be added to what hath bene said.
1. That with this pretended order a question was joined, ⟨p. 180⟩and my answer to both was required. This showeth that the order was not absolute, but to be assented to by the Answerer, if my answer to his question should please him.
1. That with this pretended order a question was joyned, ⟨p. 180⟩and my answer to boath was required. This sheweth that the order was not absolute, but to be assented to by the Answerer, if my answer to his question should please him.
2. That, in that order it is expressly said, [yea if Mr. D. can be entreated &c.] which again showeth, that it was no absolute order but to stand, if I could be entreated &c. So that this could not be called an order, till the Answerer had been satisfied about mine answer to his question, and till I had yielded to what, by this order, should be propounded to me.
2. That, in that order it is expresly sayd, [yea if Mr. D. can be intreated &c.] which againe sheweth, that it was no absolute order but to stand, if I could be intreated &c. So that this could not be called an order, till the Answerer had bene satisfyed about myne answer to his question, and till I had yeelded to what, by this order, should be propounded to me.
3. That, when the order was brought to me, though the word satisfaction and content was spoken of by me, as a word fit to be in the order, yet I demanded how this could be done by that order, upon the reasons before mentioned in my fifth proof of the defectiveness of that order,
3. That, when the order was brought to me, though the word satisfaction and content was spoken of by me, as a word fit to be in the order, yet I demanded how this could be done by that order, upon the reasons before mentioned in my fifth proofe of the defectivenes of that order,
4. That, upon my mislike of it, the order was left with me to peruse, and to add what I thought requisite, as it was fit it should, seeing the end of it, was my satisfaction.
4. That, upon my mislike of it, the order was left with me to peruse, and to add what I thought requisite, as it was fit it should, seing the end of it, was my satisfaction.
5. That, before J had polished and perfected that order, to my content, the letter of the five Ministers was brought to me, which then put me out of hope, till the Elders again promised me, the next day, that all should be made well.
5. That, before J had polished and perfected that order, to my content, the letter of the five Ministers was brought to me, which then put me out of hope, till the Elders againe promised me, the next day, that all should be made well.
As for their writing of this amongst the Acts of their Consistory, whether it was only entered into a waste book, or written down, for a record, J know not, let them look to that amongst themselves, but what I have affirmed, I know to be true, in every particular.
As for theyr wrighting of this amongst the Acts of their Consistory, whether it was only entred into a waste booke, or written downe, for a record, J know not, let them looke to that amongst themselves, but what I have affirmed, I know to be true, in every particular.
