A19884:691
An apologetical reply to a book called an answer to the unjust complaint of VV.B. Also an answer to Mr. I.D. touching his report of some passages. His allegation of Scriptures against the baptising of some kind of infants. His protestation about the publishing of his writings. By John Davenport BD.
Rotterdam: printed by Isaac van Waesberghe, 1636Rotterdam: printed by Isaack van Waesberghe, 1636
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
The pretended order abovesaid being found insufficient, and, eo nomine, excepted against by me, and the Elders having assured me, that, either that should be mended, to my Content, or else a better and more sufficient one should be made, it now remaineth that we examine his report of my consent to the writing of the five Ministers, wherein also many things are misreported.
THe pretended order abovesaid being found insufficient, and, eo nomine, excepted against by me, and the Elders having assured me, that, either that should be mended, to my Content, or else a better and more sufficient one should be made, it now remaineth that we examine his report of my consent to the wrighting of the five Ministers, wherein also many things are misreported.
1. Here again we must differ about his report of the time. He saith, that the day, wherein this discourse was between us, was Jan. 22. 1634. and yet, that it was after I had received the writing from the five Ministers, which writing, in his translation, is dated Jan. 28. 1634. When the 22. day, shall come to be after the 28. day, in the same month, this report will be true, not before. 2. As untrue is his report, that then I signified my consent. To make that appear, I will briefly relate the story of that matter. On saturday, towards the evening, one of the Elders brought me that writing subscribed by the five Ministers, which when I had read, I told him what I thought, & that I durst not yield to it. Both he, at that time, & the next day, after the fore noon Sermon (it being the Lords day) the other Elders prayed me not to show my dislike of that writing to the Answerer, fearing that he would make ill use of it, assuring me that all should be made well, to my content. The same day, after the second Sermon, the Answerer asked me, if I had received a writing from the five Ministers? whereunto when I answered affirmatively, he demanded of me, whether I did rest therein? Being loath to give offence, I did rather evade, then answer the question, by saying (not only, as he reporteth, that the Dutch ministers had done what they could, but also) that the writers them selves did seem not to require me to rest in it (seeing themselves say, in their writing; that it is but their privatum judicium, private judgement) but rather that they would be well content that some order might be made in the Consistory, as appeareth in the close of their writing, and accordingly I did thereunto refer my self. When the Elders, fearing the Answerers drift, in this discourse, hastened him into the Consistory, one of them saying he knew my mind, he answered, ⟨p. 182⟩that he desired to hear it from my self, and afterwards, when, upon my answer to him, they again endeavoured to break off our discourse, he said to them discontentedly, I perceive that he doeth not rest in the writing of the five Ministers, further then it maketh way for an order to be made in the Consistory. When I charged the Answerer herewith, what replied he? If this be true, it follows that he did consent and rest in that writing of the Ministers. Is not this a strange inference?
1. Here againe we must differ about his report of the time. He sayth, that the day, wherein this discourse was betweene us, was Ian. 22. 1634. and yet, that it was after I had received the wrighting from the five Ministers, which wrighting, in his translation, is dated Ian. 28. 1634. When the 22. day, shall come to be after the 28. day, in the same moneth, this report will be true, not before. 2. As untrue is his report, that then I signifyed my cōsent. To make that appeare, I will breifely relate the story of that matter. On saturday, towards the evening, one of the Elders brought me that wrighting subscribed by the five Ministers, which when I had read, I told him what I thought, & that I durst not yeeld to it. Both he, at that time, & the next day, after the fore noone Sermon (it being the Lords day) the other Elders prayed me not to shew my dislike of that wrighting to the Answerer, fearing that he would make ill use of it, assuring me that all should be made well, to my content. The same day, after the second Sermon, the Answerer asked me, if I had received a wrighting from the five Ministers? whereunto when I answered affirmatively, he demanded of me, whether I did rest therein? Being loath to give offence, I did rather evade, then answer the question, by saying (not only, as he reporteth, that the Dutch ministers had done what they could, but also) that the wrighters them selves did seeme not to require me to rest in it (seing themselves say, in theyre wrighting; that it is but theyre privatum judicium, private judgement) but rather that they would be well content that some order might be made in the Consistory, as appeareth in the close of their wrightingh, and accordingly I did thereunto referr my selfe. When the Elders, fearing the Answerers drift, in this discourse, hastned him into the Consistory, one of them saying he knew my mind, he answered, ⟨p. 182⟩that he desired to heare it from my selfe, and afterwards, when, upon my answer to him, they againe indeavoured to breake off our discourse, he sayd to them discontentedly, I perceive that he doeth not rest in the wrighting of the five Ministers, further then it maketh way for an order to be made in the Consistory. When I charged the Answerer herewith, what replyed he? If this be true, it followes that he did consent and rest in that wrighting of the Ministers. Is not this a strange inference?
Let us see how he proveth it? Seeing this order (saith he) was made and confirmed in the Consistory. I professed my dislike of that order which was made, as insufficient, and the Elders thereupon promised that an order should be made to my content, in this particular, to this order to be made I referred my self, resting so far in the writing of the five Ministers, as it made way for the making of that order, which the Answerer had opposed formerly. And to this day, I could rest so far in that writing, if I had any desire of being joined with him, from which I am very far, having such experience of his spirit.
Let us see how he proveth it? Seing this order (sayth he) was made and confirmed in the Consistory. I professed my dislike of that order which was made, as insufficient, and the Elders thereupon promised that an order should be made to my content, in this particular, to this order to be made I referred my selfe, resting so farr in the wrighting of the five Ministers, as it made way for the making of that order, which the Answerer had opposed formerly. And to this day, I could rest so farr in that wrighting, if I had any desire of being joyned with him, from which I am very farr, having such experience of his spirit.
Whereas he speaketh of my referring him for answer to Mr. W.] what likelihood was there in that, when I had given mine own answer? I said indeed Mr. W. knoweth my mind, and that I had given my answer to him. But what is that to this? And if Mr. W, misunderstanding me, did report matters otherwise, then I my self had done to the Answerer himself; who seeth not, that he should have accounted that to be the answer; which I my self gave to himself, not that which Mr. W. gave so far differing from mine, if he gave any such.
Whereas he speaketh of my referring him for answer to Mr. W.] what likelihood was there in that, when I had given myne owne answer? I sayd indeed Mr. W. knoweth my mind, and that I had given my answer to him. But what is that to this? And if Mr. W, misunderstanding me, did report matters otherwise, then I my selfe had done to the Answerer himselfe; who seeth not, that he should have accounted that to be the answer; which I my selfe gave to himselfe, not that which Mr. W. gave so farr differing from myne, if he gave any such.
This Section is begun, and ended with misreports, and filled up with causeless reproaches, in the intercurrent passages. ⟨p. 183⟩For. 1. he saith, in the beginning, that, upon my consent to the writing of the five ministers, considered with the order above mentioned, it was thereupon resolved &c. The untruth of this report is manifested to the Reader in the two former Sections, 2. In the conclusion of this Section, he chargeth me with reproaching him, when I said in my writing, to prove that he did not desire to have me with him, that the conditions, whereunto he held me, showed it to be so, and added, upon which terms, he is content to have others, whom he hath no cause to desire for Colleagues with him. This he saith, is a great untruth. But I know it to be true, and can demonstrate it, if I would fall into his vein of disparaging men in print, and diverse of his Congregation will witness it to be true. 3. For the intercurrent reproachful passages, the Reader may note more then a good many. But I let these things pass, & will relate the story of this passage also, as it was. The Answerer (in all probability) by the help of this writing of the five Minister, thought that he had me now fast in his lurch, which way soever I resolved upon. If I should rest in it; then the question was yielded & I had bound my self to baptise promiscuously all that should be brought, according to their custom: which I could not do, without sin against my conscience. If I should refuse to conform thereunto; he had the five Ministers now engaged to assist him, both with the Magistrates, and with the Classis, to hinder my settling there. This ground-work being thus laid, it was no hard matter to persuade him to go to either of them. Hereupon, at the entreaty of the Elders, he accompanied them to the Burgomasters, whom, when they made their address to them, they found praepossest with a false information, about the cause of my coming into those countries, concerning which they desired to be satisfied. For they had been told that it was not for matters Ecclesiastical, but for some offence against the civill Magistrate. which when I understood, I desired the Elders, that they would not prosecute their request any further, till this matter were cleared.
THis Section is begun, and ended with misreports, and filled up with causeles reproaches, in the intercurrent passages. ⟨p. 183⟩For. 1. he sayth, in the beginning, that, upon my consent to the wrighting of the five ministers, considered with the order above mentioned, it was thereupon resolved &c. The untruth of this report is manifested to the Reader in the two former Sections, 2. In the conclusion of this Section, he chargeth me with reproaching him, when I sayd in my wrighting, to prove that he did not desire to have me with him, that the conditions, whereunto he held me, shewed it to be so, and added, upon which termes, he is content to have others, whom he hath no cause to desire for Colleagues with him. This he sayth, is a great untruth. But I know it to be true, and can demonstrate it, if I would fall into his veine of disparadging men in print, and diverse of his Congregation will witnes it to be true. 3. For the intercurrent reproachfull passages, the Reader may noate more then a good many. But I let these things passe, & will relate the story of this passage also, as it was. The Answerer (in all probability) by the helpe of this wrighting of the five Minister, thaught that he had me now fast in his lurch, which way soever I resolved upon. If I should rest in it; then the questiō was yeelded & I had bound my selfe to baptise promiscuously all that should be brought, according to their custom: which I could not doe, without sinne against my conscience. If I should refuse to conforme thereunto; he had the five Ministers now ingaged to assist him, both with the Magistrates, and with the Classis, to hinder my setling there. This ground-worke being thus layed, it was no hard matter to persuade him to goe to either of them. Hereupon, at the intreaty of the Elders, he accompanyed them to the Burgomasters, whom, when they made their addresse to them, they found praepossest with a false information, about the cause of my comming into those countryes, concerning which they desired to be satisfyed. For they had bene told that it was not for matters Ecclesiasticall, but for some offence against the civill Magistrate. which when I understood, I desired the Elders, that they would not prosecute their request any further, till this matter were cleared.
And, upon enquiry, what had been said on both sides, I found that the Answerer was so far from doing me full right ⟨p. 184⟩(in clearing my innocency, as he might have done, having understood the truth concerning the cause of my coming into these parts, by mine own report to himself, in private) that what he spake might seem, rather to increase, then remove the suspicion.
And, upon enquiry, what had bene sayd on both sides, I found that the Answerer was so farr from doing me full right ⟨p. 184⟩(in clearing my innocency, as he might have done, having understood the truth concerning the cause of my comming into these parts, by myne owne report to himselfe, in private) that what he spake might seeme, rather to encrease, then remove the suspicion.
The pretend cause of my trouble with the civill Magistrates in England (as it appeared) was a pious work, wherein I (with others more worthy) was entrusted, to wit, the redeeming of impropriations, & restoring of the means to the right use, the maintenance of faithful and painful ministers, in those places, where was most need. Wherein three other ministers (whereof two were Doctors of Divinity) and four Lawyers (of which one was the Kings Sergeant at Law) and five Citizens (of whom one was Lord Major of London, when I came thence) were trustees with me, by the entreaty and appointment of many, some whereof are at rest, others are yet alive. The work it self was applauded in that very order which was made in the Exchequer against our proceeding in it: Our faithfulness in discharging that trust was testified by his Maties Attorney general (who prosecuted the suite against us) upon his examination of our accounts, which we gave in, upon our oaths. I had no more cause to fly for fear of trouble about this, then the rest, nor had they, or I any cause to withdraw our selves, at that time, when I came over. For the business was wholly ended before my departure. This objection being answered, and the informer himself falling off from his report, the former motion, for their consent to my calling to that ministry, was, without my knowledge, revived, by the Elders. Before the Burgomasters had given their answer, they were informed by one or two of the Dutch ministers, both concerning me, and concerning this difference: when the Elders again waited upon them for their answer, the Burgomasters told them. 1. that they were satisfied about the former report. 2. That they had received a very good report from one or two of the Dutch ministers, with whom they had speech, concerning me. 3. That the said ministers had acquainted them with some difference, which had risen about this custom, and that J had now promised to join ⟨p. 185⟩with the Classis, and to conform to the orders, and customs of the Dutch Church, and, in particular, in this their manner of baptising all that are brought. And they concluded, in effect, in these words, we expect that he do accordingly, and so you may proceed in your choice. By this the Reader may perceive that matters were now so far from being accommodated, that they were set in a worse state, then before.
The pretende cause of my trouble with the civill Magistrates in England (as it appeared) was a pious worke, wherein I (with others more worthy) was intrusted, to witt, the redeeming of impropriations, & restoring of the meanes to the right use, the maintenance of faythfull and painfull ministers, in those places, where was most need. Wherein three other ministers (whereof two were Doctors of Divinity) and fowre Lawyers (of which one was the Kings Serjant at Law) and five Citizens (of whom one was Lord Major of London, when I came thence) were trustees with me, by the intreaty and appoyntment of many, some whereof are at rest, others are yet alive. The worke it selfe was applauded in that very order which was made in the Exchecquor against our proceeding in it: Our faithfullnes in discharging that trust was testifyed by his Maties Atturney generall (who prosecuted the suite against us) upon his examination of our accounts, which we gave in, upon our oathes. I had no more cause to flye for feare of trouble about this, then the rest, nor had they, or I any cause to withdraw our selves, at that time, when I came over. For the buisenes was wholly ended before my departure. This objection being answered, and the informer himselfe falling off from his report, the former motion, for their consent to my calling to that ministry, was, without my knowledge, revived, by the Elders. Before the Burgomasters had given their answer, they were informed by one or two of the Dutch ministers, both concerning me, and concerning this difference: when the Elders againe wayted upon them for their answer, the Burgomasters told them. 1. that they were satisfyed about the former report. 2. That they had received a very good report from one or two of the Dutch ministers, with whom they had speech, concerning me. 3. That the sayd ministers had acquainted them with some difference, which had risen about this custom, and that J had now promised to joyne
For now, not only the five Ministers, but the Magistrates also were engaged so far in this matter, that they gave but a conditional assent unto my calling, and had, upon misinformation, made my conformity to this unwarrantable custom, the condition thereof. So that, how easily might he, who before abused the Magistrates with untrue reports about the cause of my coming over (to hinder my admittance) by a malicious (though true) complaint of my not observing that order, in some cases, cause me to be ejected thence? Now a gap was opened to every one, that hereafter should seek my hurt, to procure some such children to be brought (of which sort there can be no want, at any time, in such a city as Amsterdam) as they know I dare not baptise, that thereupon they might ground a complaint against me to the Magistrate. Nor could I, in such a case, expect any help from the Answerer, whom I have found an hinderer of my accommodation hitherto, both in those three ways propounded by me, & in the order, which should have been made in the Consistory, by the promise and endeavours of the Elders.
For now, not only the five Ministers, but the Magistrates also were ingaged so farr in this matter, that they gave but a conditionall assent unto my calling, and had, upon misinformation, made my conformity to this unwarrantable custom, the condition thereof. So that, how easily might he, who before abused the Magistrates with untrue reports about the cause of my coming over (to hinder my admittance) by a malicious (though true) complaint of my not observing that order, in some cases, cause me to be ejected thence? Now a gapp was opened to every one, that hereafter should seeke my hurt, to procure some such children to be brought (of which sort there can be no want, at any time, in such a citty as Amsterdam) as they know I dare not baptise, that thereupon they might ground a complaint against me to the Magistrate. Nor could I, in such a case, expect any helpe from the Answerer, whom I have found an hinderer of my accommodation hitherto, both in those three wayes propounded by me, & in the order, which should have bene made in the Consistory, by the promise and endeavours of the Elders.
The truth of this passage I will briefly relate. After the Elders had received this answer from the Magistrate; out of their desire to accomplish the business (and not finding me at home when they came to speak with me) they went, without ⟨p. 186⟩my consent, or knowledge, to one of the Dutch ministers, whom they entreated to call an extraordinary Classis to meet on the monday following, fearing (as it seemeth) least longer delays might occasion new troubles. The minister, having granted their request, in their return homewards from him, they told me what they had done, about the calling of a Classis, I, being yet ignorant of the issue of their treaty with the Magistrates, desired to know what conclusion they had made, and the very words, wherein they had expressed their consent, which when I understood, I told them that matters were now in a worse state then before: they also apprehended my reason. I wished that the calling of a Classis had been forborne, and prayed them to return to the minister, from whom they came, and to wish him not to call an extraordinary Classis, for this matter, and to tell him that, upon some considerations, they are willing that matters rest as they are, till the ordinary time should come. They promised so to do, and went from me with that resolution, but another of the Elders, with whom they met afterwards, altered their purpose, and therefore they went not. This change of their mind I knew not, till it was too late to help it. The day when the Classis met, they were with me, in the morning, before they went to the meeting. I prayed them to deal plainly with the Classis, in telling them my judgment in this question, and told them the danger of neglecting so to do. They promised me, and purposed to do so, but perceiving that the Ministers of the Classis gave consent to my call, without interposing any question about my conformity to this custom, they did not perform their promise, still hoping and purposing to secure and satisfy me by an effectual order that should be made for that end, in the Consistory. Whereas the Answerer saith, that the Ministers, at that time, understood from them, that I had declared my consent with them, I am informed by the Elders, that, not one word was spoken, to them, at that time, thereabout.
THe truth of this passage I will breifely relate. After the Elders had received this answer from the Magistrate; out of their desire to accomplish the buisenes (and not finding me at home when they came to speake with me) they went, without ⟨p. 186⟩
whereas he saith, Had I known that he was unresolved to accord with us, and to go on in the same practise with us, I would never have made such a proposition for his admission, as I did, in the Classis. J answer.
whereas he sayth, Had I knowne that he was unresolved to accord with us, and to goe on in the same practise with us, I would never have made such a proposition for his admission, as I did, in the Classis. J answer.
