And so you starve our and destroy true piety, by calling off the peoples minds to Controversy: And when they should be edifying one another in the comfortable hopes of another world, they are backbiting one another with accusations of Popery. 9. Yea Preaching it self is thus corrupted: And that which is appointed of God to be the means of mens edification in Love and holiness, (Eph. 4. 14, 15, 16.) is turned to be the bellows of keeping hot the furnace of wrath and injury. ⟨p. 293⟩10. Yea Prayer which should be most holy is thus also corrupted and profaned by too many; while they boldly bespeak the holy and dreadful God against one another, and against those things, which their ignorance misrepresenteth to themselves. And so Gods ordinances are made a snare to souls, which are appointed for their salvation: and the man that can kindle in his hearers a transporting passion against this or that opinion or form as Popish, is cried up for an excellent preacher, and seemeth to edify the people while he destroyeth them. 11. And by this means you seem to justify the Papists lies and calumnies against the Protestants, by doing as they do: They belie Luther, Zuinglius, Calvin, Beza, &c. with just such intentions and such a kind of zeal, as some over doing Sectaries belie them. And is it bad in them and good in you? 12. You teach the people a dangerous and perverse way of reasoning à minùs notis, which will let in almost any errors: From a dark text in the Revelations, or Daniel, or from the supposition that the Pope is the Antichrist, and all Papists have received the mark of the beast, you gather conclusions against the notorious duties of Love and peace, which the light of nature doth commend to all: Not that I am persuading you that the Pope is not Antichrist; but that all things be received but according to their proper degree of evidence.

And so you starve our and destroy true piety, by calling off the peoples minds to Controversie: And when they should be edifying one another in the comfortable hopes of another world, they are backbiting one another with accusations of Popery. 9. Yea Preaching it self is thus corrupted: And that which is appointed of God to be the means of mens edification in Love and holiness, (Eph. 4. 14, 15, 16.) is turned to be the bellows of keeping hot the furnace of wrath and injury. ⟨p. 293⟩10. Yea Prayer which should be most holy is thus also corrupted and prophaned by too many; while they boldly bespeak the holy and dreadful God against one another, and against those things, which their ignorance misrepresenteth to themselves. And so Gods ordinances are made a snare to souls, which are appointed for their salvation: and the man that can kindle in his hearers a transporting passion against this or that opinion or form as Popish, is cryed up for an excellent preacher, and seemeth to edifie the people while he destroveth them. 11. And by this means you seem to justifie the Papists lyes and calumnies against the Protestants, by doing as they do: They belye Luther, Zuinglius, Calvin, Beza, &c. with just such intentions and such a kind of zeal, as some over doing Sectaries belye them. And is it bad in them and good in you? 12. You teach the people a dangerous and perverse way of reasoning à minùs notis, which will let in almost any errours: From a dark text in the Revelations, or Daniel, or from the supposition that the Pope is the Antichrist, and all Papists have received the mark of the beast, you gather conclusions against the notorious duties of Love and peace, which the light of nature doth commend to all: Not that I am perswading you that the Pope is not Antichrist; but that all things be received but according to their proper degree of evidence.

S. Now you open your self indeed: All that revolt to Popery begin there, with questioning whether the Pope be the Antichrist, and telling men of the darkness of the Book of Revelations.

P. I tell you I will abate no certainty that you have, but increase my own and yours if I could: but I would not have any falsely to pretend that they are certainer of any thing than they are: And no certainty can go beyond the ascertaining evidence: And if all Scriptures be equally plain, St. Peter was deceived, that tells us of many things hard to be understood, which the unlearned wrest as other Scriptures to their own destruction. And if the Revelations be not one of the hardest, I crave your answer to these questions: 1. Why are five Expositors usually of four opinions in the expounding of it? when it is those that have spent much of their lives in studying it (as Napier, Brightman, &c.) who are the Expositors? 2. Why will none of you that find it so easy at last write one certain Commentary which may assure which of all the former (if any one of them) was in the right? 3. Why did Calvin take it to be too hard for him, and durst not venture to expound it? 4. And if you take it to be so necessary as you pretend, tell me whether it was so necessary, and so taken by all those Churches, that for a long time received it not as Canonical Scripture? Surely they were saved without believing it. Though no doubt but the book of Revelation is a great mercy to the Church, and all men should understand as much of it as they can. But all that I blame you for here, is the perverting of the order of proof, in arguing à minùs notis. 13. And these over-doers that run things into the contrary extremes, do most injuriously weaken the Protestant cause, by disabling themselves and all men of their principles to defend it, and arming the Papists against it by their errors. When it cometh to an open dispute by Word or Writing, one of these mens errors is like a wound that lets out blood and spirits, and puts words of triumph into the adversaries mouth: A cunning Papist will presently drive the ignorant disputant to resolve his cause into his mistake, and then will open the falsehood of that, and thence infer the falsehood of all the rest: And what an injury is that to the souls of the auditors, who may be betrayed by it, and to the cause it self?

P. I tell you I will abate no certainty that you have, but increase my own and yours if I could: but I would not have any falsly to pretend that they are certainer of any thing than they are: And no certainty can go beyond the ascertaining evidence: And if all Scriptures be equally plain, St. Peter was deceived, that tells us of many things hard to be understood, which the unlearned wrest as other Scriptures to their own destruction. And if the Revelations be not one of the hardest, I crave your answer to these questions: 1. Why are five Expositors usually of four opinions in the expounding of it? when it is those that have spent much of their lives in studying it (as Napier, Brightman, &c.) who are the Expositors? 2. Why will none of you that find it so easie at last write one certain Commentary which may assure which of all the former (if any one of them) was in the right? 3. Why did Calvin take it to be too hard for him, and durst not venture to expound it? 4. And if you take it to be so necessary as you pretend, tell me whether it was so necessary, and so taken by all those Churches, that for a long time received it not as Canonical Scripture? Surely they were saved without believing it. Though no doubt but the book of Revelation is a great mercy to the Church, and all men should understand as much of it as they can. But all that I blame you for here, is the perverting of the order of proof, in arguing à minùs notis. 13. And these over-doers that run things into the contrary extreams, do most injuriously weaken the Protestant cause, by disabling themselves and all men of their principles to defend it, and arming the Papists against it by their errors. When it cometh to an open dispute by Word or Writing, one of these mens errors is like a wound that lets out blood and spirits, and puts words of triumph into the adversaries mouth: A cunning Papist will presently drive the ignorant disputant to resolve his cause into his mistake, and then will open the falshood of that, and thence inferr the falshood of all the rest: And what an injury is that to the souls of the auditors, who may be betrayed by it, and to the cause it self?

About the nature of Justifying faith, and its office to Justification, and about the nature of Justification it self, and Imputation of Righteousness, and free-will, and mans Works and Merits, and about assurance of salvation and perseverance, how many do call that Popery, which the whole current of Greek and Latin Fathers do assert, and all the ancient Churches owned, and most of all the present Churches in the world? And those that call all forms of prayer, Popery, or the English Liturgy at least, when almost all the Christian world have forms, and most such as are much worse, do but tell men that the Christian world is on the side that they oppose, and against their way. 16. And it is a crime of infamy to be taken for Separatists from the universal Church; And in doctrines and forms of Worship, not only to avoid what we take to have been a common weakness, but also to condemn them as Antichristian, or as holding pernicious errors, is but to persuade men that we are not of the same body, and to own a sinful dishonourable separation. 17. And by all these means these Over-doers do greatly increase Atheism and Infidelity and profaneness among us, while their zeal against Truth and reproaches of sound doctrine, do make men think that our Religion is nothing but proud humour and self-conceit; and while they see us so boldly condemn almost all the world except our selves, they will think that so few as we deserve not to be excepted. 18. By this injurious extremity against the Papists, we do but kindle in them a bitterer enmity to us, and hatred of them breedeth hatred in them of ⟨p. 295⟩us, and so we set them on plotting revenge against us, as implacable injurious enemies; when we should deal soberly and righteously with all men, and seek to win them by truth and gentleness. 19. I And such dealings with them do draw Persecution on the Protestants that live under their Dominions; and if we refuse to use them here as Christians, no wonder if abroad they use not the Protestants as Men. 20.

About the nature of Justifying faith, and its office to Justification, and about the nature of Justification it self, and Imputation of Righteousness, and free-will, and mans Works and Merits, and about assurance of salvation and perseverance, how many do call that Popery, which the whole current of Greek and Latine Fathers do assert, and all the ancient Churches owned, and most of all the present Churches in the world? And those that call all forms of prayer, Popery, or the English Liturgie at least, when almost all the Christian world have forms, and most such as are much worse, do but tell men that the Christian world is on the side that they oppose, and against their way. 16. And it is a crime of infamy to be taken for Separatists from the universal Church; And in doctrines and forms of Worship, not only to avoid what we take to have been a common weakness, but also to condemn them as Antichristian, or as holding pernicious errours, is but to perswade men that we are not of the same body, and to own a sinful dishonourable separation. 17. And by all these means these Over-doers do greatly increase Atheism and Infidelity and prophaneness among us, while their zeal against Truth and reproaches of sound doctrine, do make men think that our Religion is nothing but proud humour and self-conceit; and while they see us so boldly condemn almost all the world except our selves, they will think that so few as we deserve not to be excepted. 18. By this injurious extremity against the Papists, we do but kindle in them a bitterer enmity to us, and hatred of them breedeth hatred in them of

And by such great abuses of Reformation, men hinder Reformation for the time to come, and do their part to make it hopeless, while they discourage such attempts, by dishonouring the Reformation which is past Even as David George, and Munt•er, and the Munster Dosages and Rebellions, do hinder the reviving of Anabaptistry in the world, and the shame of their old practices and successes, is as a Grave stone upon the Sepulchre of their Cause; so do these men do their part to make it with the whole Reformation, that none hereafter may date to own or meddle with such work. These that I have opened briefly to you, are the real fruits of false, injurious and ignorant zeal and over-doing against the Papists: And if Popery revive, it's like to be by such men.

And by such great abuses of Reformation, men hinder Reformation for the time to come, and do their part to make it hopeless, while they discourage such attempts, by dishonouring the Reformation which is past Even as David George, and Munt•er, and the Munster Do•ages and Rebellions, do hinder the •eviving of Anabaptistry in the world, and the shame of their old practices and successes, is as a Grave stone upon the Sepuleher of their Cause; so do these men do their part to make it with the whole Reformation, that none hereafter may date to own or meddle with such work. These that I have opened briefly to you, are the real fruits of false, injurious and ignorant zeal and over-doing against the Papists: And if Popery revive, it's like to be by such men.

S. But Popery is an heinous evil; and corrupt nature is so prone to evil, tha• you need not thus dissuade men from going too far from it, or from over-doing against it, no more than from being overmuch religious.

S. But Popery is an heinous evil; and corrupt nature is so prone to evil, tha• you need not thus disswade men from going too far from it, or from over-doing against it, no more than from being overmuch religious.

P. You may say the same as truly of the errors on the contrary extreme: All of them are evil, and men are prone to evil: But 1. Little know you how common it is in the world to spend mens zeal against the real or supposed evil of other mens Opinions, and thereby to strengthen the mortal evil of their own carnal affections and passions, and worldly lives, and to take a zeal for Truth and Orthodoxness for real Holiness, while usually such miss of Truth it self. 2. And you know not the wiles of Satan, how ordinarily he betrayeth a good Cause by the ill management of its most zealous friends, and doth undo by over-doing. When he will play the Devil indeed with Eve, he will seem to be more than God himself for Knowledge of Good and Evil, and for the advancement of mankind to be like God; and God shall be accused by him as if he were untrue, and envied our perfection. When he will play the Devil indeed with Christ, he will seem to be more for valiantness and trusting God than Christ was, and pleadeth Scripture for tempting God. When he will, play the Devil indeed in the Pharisees, he will be stricter for the Sabbath, and for Discipline in avoiding the company of the Publicans and sinners, and stricter in fastings and diet and other observations than Christ himself; And he will be a zealous enemy to Blasphemy, and a zealous Royalist for Caesar, and a zealous honourer of the Temple and the Law, when Christ, or Paul, or other Apostles are to be destroyed by it. And when he will play the Devil in the Nicolaitans, Simonians, and Gnostic Heretics, he will seem to be for higher knowledge, and greater liberty than the Apostles were. And so when he would sow discord among Christians, and would kill their Love, and divide Christs Church, and set them in a mental and oral War against each other, he will aggravate the errors and faults of others, and he will seem a more zealous friend of Truth, and enemy to Popery, Heresy, Error, Superstition, false Worship, or other faults than Christ is: But he knoweth why.

P. You may say the same as truly of the errors on the contrary extream: All of them are evil, and men are prone to evil: But 1. Little know you how common it is in the world to spend mens zeal against the real or supposed evil of other mens Opinions, and thereby to strengthen the mortal evil of their own carnal affections and passions, and worldly lives, and to take a zeal for Truth and Orthodoxness for real Holiness, while usually such miss of Truth it self. 2. And you know not the wiles of Satan, how ordinarily he betrayeth a good Cause by the ill management of its most zealous friends, and doth undo by over-doing. When he will play the Devil indeed with Eve, he will seem to be more than God himself for Knowledge of Good and Evil, and for the advancement of mankind to be like God; and God shall be accused by him as if he were untrue, and envyed our perfection. When he will play the Devil indeed with Christ, he will seem to be more for valiantness and trusting God than Christ was, and pleadeth Scripture for tempting God. When he will, play the Devil indeed in the Pharisees, he will be stricter for the abbath, and for Discipline in avoiding the company of the Publicans and sinners, and stricter in fastings and dyet and other observations than Christ himself; And he will be a zealous enemy to Blasphemy, and a zealous Royalist for Caesar, and a zealous honourer of the Temple and the Law, when Christ, or Paul, or other Apostles are to be destroyed by it. And when he will play the Devil in the Nicolaitans, Simonians, and Gnostick Hereticks, he will seem to be for higher knowledge, and greater liberty than the Apostles were. And so when he would sow discord among Christians, and would kill their Love, and divide Christs Church, and set them in a mental and oral War against each other, he will aggravate the errors and faults of others, and he will seem a more zealous friend of Truth, and enemy to Popery, Heresie, Error, Superstition, false Worship, or other faults than Christ is: But he knoweth why.

S. But God telleth us himself, that he is jealous about his Worship, and hath in Scripture more severely executed his Justice upon the corrupters of his Worship, than almost any other crime.

P. No doubt but God is jealous against Idolatry. He that knoweth not the true God from Idols, cannot honour him. And he that worshippeth him not as a most Great and Holy God, dishonoureth or blasphemeth him on pretence of worshipping him. And to worship him by an Image, is to persuade men that God is like that which that Image doth represent; which is to deny him to be God. And no doubt but the Jews great temptations to Idolatry from the Nations about them, were to be oppugned by great severities of God. And no doubt but Moses Law was to be honoured by Gods severe executions on the breakers of it. But when you come to Christs preaching, you find how oft he teacheth the Pharisees to go learn what that meaneth, I will have Mercy, and not Sacrifice. When he conferreth with the Woman of Samaria, John 4. she presently turneth from the doctrine of faith (as Sectaries do among us) to the Controversies of the times, [Our Fathers say, In this Mountain, and you say At Jerusalem, men ought to worship.] But Christ calleth her off such low discourse, and teacheth her to worship God as a Spirit, in spirit and truth, if ever she would be accepted of him.

P. No doubt but God is jealous against Idolatry. He that knoweth not the true God from Idols, cannot honour him. And he that worshippeth him not as a most Great and Holy God, dishonoureth or blasphemeth him on pretence of worshipping him. And to worship him by an Image, is to perswade men that God is like that which that Image doth represent; which is to deny him to be God. And no doubt but the Jews great temptations to Idolatry from the Nations about them, were to be oppugned by great severities of God. And no doubt but Moses Law was to be honoured by Gods severe executions on the breakers of it. But when you come to Christs preaching, you find how oft he teacheth the Pharisees to go learn what that meaneth, I will have Mercy, and not Sacrifice. When he conferreth with the Woman of Samaria, John 4. she presently turneth from the doctrine of faith (as Sectaries do among us) to the Controversies of the times, [Our Fathers say, In this Mountain, and you say At Jerusalem, men ought to worship.] But Christ calleth her off such low discourse, and teacheth her to worship God as a Spirit, in spirit and truth, if ever she would be accepted of him.

S. But it is a time now when Popery is striving to rise again, and how unseasonably would you abate mens zeal against it?

P. No more than he was against his Lawyers Zeal, who grew hoarse with senseless bawling for him, saying, I am glad he hath lost his voice, or else I might have lost my Cause. I am so much against Popery, that I wish it wiser and abler adversaries, than self-conceited unstudied Zealots, who will honour Popery, by entitling it to the Truths of God, and the Consent of the Ancient or Universal Church; or would make people believe, that it consisteth in some good or indifferent things, as in some Doctrines, Forms or Government, which others can see no harm in; And so teach men to say, If this be Popery, we will rather be Papists, than of them that rave as in their sleep, against they know not what. Could these men be persuaded to lay out their Zeal and diligence, in propagating the practical knowledge of Christianity it self, and let things alone which they understand not, and SUSPEND TILL THEY HAVE THROUGHLY STUDIED, or at least to forbear hindering wiser men, and calumniating and backbiting those that would by wisdom defend that truth which by folly and rashness they go about to betray, they might be meet for their share of that honour which now they forfeit.

P. No more than he was against his Lawyers Zeal, who grew hoarse with senseless bawling for him, saying, I am glad he hath lost his voice, or else I might have lost my Cause. I am so much against Popery, that I wish it wiser and abler adversaries, than self-conceited unstudied Zealots, who will honour Popery, by entitling it to the Truths of God, and the Consent of the Antient or Universal Church; or would make people believe, that it consisteth in some good or indifferent things, as in some Doctrines, Forms or Government, which others can see no harm in; And so teach men to say, If this be Popery, we will rather be Papists, than of them that rave as in their sleep, against they know not what. Could these men be perswaded to lay out their Zeal and diligence, in propagating the practical knowledge of Christianity it self, and let things alone which they understand not, and SUSPEND TILL THEY HAVE THROUGHLY STUDIED, or at least to forbear hindering wiser men, and calumniating and backbiting those that would by wisdom defend that truth which by folly and rashness they go about to betray, they might be meet for their share of that honour which now they forfeit.

S. You strive against Gods Judgements by which he hath oft times disowned Popery among us; and would make that less odious, which God by wonders hath oft called us to abhor.

S. You strive against Gods Judgements by which he hath oft times disowned Popery among us; and would make that less odious, which God by wonders hath oft called us to abhorr.

P. You still mistake: It is only your strengthening them, or sinning against God by false and ignorant accusations, and calumniating wiser men as favouring them, that I speak against. God hath oft marvellously preserved us from their attempts. But if you will use untruths against them, they will repay you two for one, and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you. Little know you how odious they render us by lies abroad where they are believed: and I would have no honest man to imitate them. I will instance to you in a few of their Stories. Saith Thom. Waldensis (a Learned man) against Wycliffe, citante Tympio, pag. 104. [I will tell you a Story which I saw with my own eyes in the Cathedral of St. Paul in London: where Tho. Arundel a Venerable Prelate of happy memory, a Son, and Brother of Earls (the Bishop of Norwich and others assisting him) sitting in judgement, proposed some questions of the Eucharist to a certain Taylor of Worcestershire taken in Heresy; and when he could not be moved, and would call the most ⟨p. 297⟩Sacred Host nothing but Blessed Bread, at last being commanded to do reverence to the Host, he blasphemously answered, A Spider is worthier of Reverence. And presently a great and horrid Spider descending from the top of the room by his thread, made directly to the Blasphemers mouth, and laboured to get in while he spake. The Illustrious Prince Thomas Duke of Oxford then Chancellor of the Kingdom, saw the prodigy: which so confirmed them of Gods revenge, that they burnt the man] Saith the same Tympius Theatr. p. 148. [Oecolampadius an Apostate married Monk an. 1528. was strangled by the Devil in Basil, (as Luther reporteth in his Book of the private Mass): a death worthy his life. Luther writeth that he had proved it (explor atissimum esse) that Oecolampadius was killed by the fiery weapons of the Devil.] Carolostadius an. 1530. strangled by the Calvinian God went quickly to Hell, as Erasmus Albertus reporteth. John Calvin was consumed of the lousy disease, the Worms eating through all his body, with blaspheming words, cursed God and called on the Devil, and committed his soul to him, an. 1567. saith Bolsec in vit. Calv. c. 22. Beza writeth, that Calvin tormented four years miserably at last eaten with swarming Lice dyed unhappily and filthily. Pag. 154.

P. You still mistake: It is only your strengthening them, or sinning against God by false and ignorant accusations, and calumniating wiser men as favouring them, that I speak against. God hath oft marvellously preserved us from their attempts. But if you will use untruths against them, they will repay you two for one, and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you. Little know you how odious they render us by lyes abroad where they are believed: and I would have no honest man to imitate them. I will instance to you in a few of their Stories. Saith Thom. Waldensis (a Learned man) against Wickliffe, citante Tympio, pag. 104. [I will tell you a Story which I saw with my own eyes in the Cathedral of St. Paul in London: where Tho. Arundel a Venerable Prelate of happy memory, a Son, and Brother of Earls (the Bishop of Norwich and others assisting him) sitting in judgement, proposed some questions of the Eucharist to a certain Taylor of Worcestershire taken in Heresie; and when he could not be moved, and would call the most

Luther having supped daintily and gone merry to bed, was strangled in the night. Th. Bozius de sig. Eccl. l. 23. sig. 96. •. 3. saith that he was certified by a Boy that served Luther and turned to them, that Luther hanged himself, but they swore all the house to conceal it. Ibid. id. [They say (saith Bozius) that when Bucer was dying, a horrid Devil stood by and almost frightened all present to death, of whom he (Bucer) was stricken that he might carry away his soul; for being pulled out of the bed, his bowels being scattered all about the Bed-chamber, and he killed with many torments, did expire.] How like you such work as this? such horrid lies, of things fully known? Should not the detestation of them make us afraid of coming near them by any imitation, and to take heed what we believe or say of others? Abundance more such Stories, Miracles and Prodigies you may find in Tympius and Caesarius besides many others. Read but those two Books and you will see who be the great pretenders to Prodigies and Miracles, and readiest to proclaim Gods Judgements on others, when they that think they do it for the honour of God, alas, are unawares moved to it by the interest of that Cause and Party which is so much their own, as that it may be called Their own Interest.

Luther having supped daintily and gone merry to bed, was strangled in the night. Th. Bozius de sig. Eccl. l. 23. sig. 96. •. 3. saith that he was certified by a Boy that served Luther and turned to them, that Luther hang'd himself, but they swore all the house to conceal it. Ibid. id. [They say (saith Bozius) that when Bucer was dying, a horrid Devil stood by and almost frightned all present to death, of whom he (Bucer) was stricken that he might carry away his soul; for being pull'd out of the bed, his bowels being scattered all about the Bed-chamber, and he killed with many torments, did expire.] How like you such work as this? such horrid lyes, of things fully known? Should not the detestation of them make us afraid of coming near them by any imitation, and to take heed what we believe or say of others? Abundance more such Stories, Miracles and Progidies you may find in Tympius and Caesarius besides many others. Read but those two Books and you will see who be the great pretenders to Prodigies and Miracles, and readiest to proclaim Gods Judgements on others, when they that think they do it for the honour of God, alas, are unawares moved to it by the interest of that Cause and Party which is so much their own, as that it may be called Their own Interest.

S. Well, for all this, I take it to be Gods Mercy to possess the unlearned Professors themselves, with so great a zeal against all that savoureth of Popery; so that were it not for them, the Ministers themselves would comply further than they do: But when they see that it is the sensus communis fidelium, and they must lose all the good people if they comply, it holds them in. Many that cannot dispute against Popish errors and practices, can hate them.