A67927:6041
Acts and monuments of matters most special and memorable, happening in the Church. [vol. 2, part 2] with an universal history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitive age to these latter times of ours, with the bloody times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions against the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperors, as now lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realm of England and Scotland. Newly revised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time again published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the help of Christ our Lord) John Fox, which desireth thee good reader to help him with thy prayer.Actes and monuments of matters most speciall and memorable, happenyng in the Church. [vol. 2, part 2] with an vniuersall history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitiue age to these latter tymes of ours, with the bloudy times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions agaynst the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperours, as nowe lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realme of England and Scotland. Newly reuised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time agayne published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the helpe of Christ our Lord) Iohn Foxe, which desireth thee good reader to helpe him with thy prayer.
London: printed by John Daye, 1583London: printed by Iohn Daye, 1583
No title page in the transcription: set from the catalogue record.
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Wood. Yea, but th•• was more then needs. But God forgive them, if it be his will. But let that matter pass. But I would you should not say that I hold against baptising of children, for I do not, I take God to record: but do allow it to be most necessary, if it be truly used. But me thought you spake words even now that were uncomely to be spoken: if a child die, & be not baptised, it is damned. How think you? be all damned that receive not the outward sign of baptism?
Wood. Yea, but th•• was more then needs. But God forgeue them, if it be his will. But let that matter passe. But I would you should not say that I hold agaynst baptising of children, for I doe not, I take God to recorde: but doe allowe it to be most necessary, if it be truely vsed. But me thought you spake wordes euen now that were vncomely to be spoken: if a childe die, & be not baptised, it is damned. How thinke you? be all damned that receiue not the outward signe of baptisme?
Lang. Yea that they be.
Wood. How prove you that?
Wood. How proue you that?
Lang. 1Go, saith Christ, and baptise in the name of the father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost, and he that believeth, and is baptised, shall be saved: and he that believeth not shall be damned. These be the words of Christ, which are my warrant.
Lang. 1Goe, sayth Christ, and baptise in the name of the father, and of the Sonne, and of the holy Ghost, and he that beleueth, and is baptised, shalbe saued: and he that beleueth not shalbe damned. These be the wordes of Christ, which are my warrant.
Wood. Then by your saying, baptism bringeth faith, and all that be Baptised in the water, shall be saved: shall they? how say you?
Wood. Then by your saying, baptisme bringeth fayth, and all that be Baptised in the water, shall be saued: shall they? how say you?
Lang. Yea, that they shall: if they die before they come to discretion,1 they shall be saved every one of them, and all that be not baptised shall be damned every one of them.
Lang. Yea, that they shall: if they die before they come to discretiō,1 they shalbe saued euery one of them, and all that be not baptised shall be damned euery one of them.
Wood. Then my spirit was moved with him to reprove him sharply, because I had manifest scriptures fresh in my mind against his saying. Then said I. O Lord God, how dare you speak such blasphemy against God and his word, as you do? how dare you for your life to take upon you to preach, & teach the people, & understand not what you say?1 For I protest before GOD you understand not the scriptures, but as far as natural reason can comprehend. For if you did, you would be ashamed to speak as you do.
Wood. Then my spirite was moued with him to reprooue him sharply, because I had manifest scriptures fresh in my mind agaynst his saying. Then sayd I. O Lord God, how dare you speake suche blasphemye agaynst God and his word, as you doe? howe dare you for your life to take vpon you to preache, & teach the people, & vnderstand not what you say?1 For I protest before GOD you vnderstande not the scriptures, but as far as naturall reason can comprehēd. For if you did, you would be ashamed to speake as you do.
Lang. Wherein have I spoken amiss? take heed, you have a toy in your head will make you despair. I dare say you can not tell what you say. Wherefore reprove you me as you do?
Lang. Wherein haue I spoken amisse? take heede, you haue a toy in your head wil make you dispayre. I dare say you can not tell what you say. Wherefore reproue you me as you do?
Wood. Because you blaspheme GOD: and as for despairing, take heed to your self. For I can not see but you be out of your wit already· and as for me, I praise God, I can tell what I say, and what you have said: the which shall turn to your shame, if you will talk the Scriptures with me. So, when he perceived that I spake earnestly, and challenged him to talk by the word, his colour began to change, and his flesh began to tremble and quake. And I said. Prove your sayings true, if you can: for I will prove them false, by Gods help. You said. All children, or other that be not baptised with water, all shall be damned. I dare not say so, for all the good in the world. And you brought in the saying of Christ for your warrant. In the xvi. of Mark it is written: Who so believeth, and is baptised, shall be saved: which words be very true: and who so believeth not, shall be damned. Which words be very true also. He sayeth: He that believeth not, shall be damned. Yea S. John sayeth: He that believeth not, is condemned already, because he believeth not. But neither of these two scriptures, nor no other scriptures in all the new Testament saith, that he that is not baptised, shall be damned, or is damned already. But if he believe not, he shall be damned, and is damned already, as is aforesaid. Then he would have interrupted me, & would have laid to my charge, that I was an Anabaptist. But I would give him no place to speak, but said: Let me make an end, and then say what you can. You shall have as much to do, by Gods help, with this matter, as ever you had to answer thing in your life. You know (I am sure) it is no manner to pluck a tale out of a mans mouth, nor it is not the order of reasoning, as you know that better then I can tell you. Then Doctor Langdale bade me say on.
Wood. Because you blaspheme GOD: and as for dispayring, take heed to your selfe. For I can not see but you be out of your wit alreadye· and as for me, I prayse God, I can tell what I say, and what you haue sayd: the whiche shall turne to your shame, if you wil talke the Scriptures with me. So, when hee perceiued that I spake earnestlye, and challenged hym to talke by the woorde, his colour began to chaunge, and his fleshe beganne to tremble and quake. And I sayd. Proue your sayinges true, if you can: for I will proue them false, by Gods helpe. You sayd. All children, or other that be not baptised with water, all shall be damned. I dare not say so, for all the good in the worlde. And you brought in the saying of Christ for your warrant. In the xvi. of Marke it is written: Who so beleueth, and is baptised, shalbe saued: which words be very true: and who so beleueth not, shalbe damned. Which words be very true also. He sayeth: He that beleueth not, shalbe damned. Yea S. Iohn sayeth: He that beleueth not, is condemned already, because he beleueth not. But neither of these two scriptures, nor no other scriptures in all the newe Testament sayth, that he that is not baptised, shalbe damned, or is damned already. But if he beleue not, he shalbe damned, and is damned already, as is aforesayd. Then he woulde haue interrupted me, & would haue layd to my charge, that I was an Anabaptist. But I wold geue him no place to speake, but sayd: Let me make an end, and then say what you can. You shall haue as much to doe, by Gods helpe, with this matter, as euer you had to aunsweare thing in your life. You knowe (I am sure) it is no maner to plucke a tale out of a mans mouth, nor it is not the order of reasoning, as you know that better then I can tell you. Then Doctor Langdale bade me say on.
Wood. My saying was, that they that believe not,1 shall be damned, and be damned already. But I dare not say, for all the goods under heaven, that all they that receive no material baptism by the water, shall be damned, as you have said: yet I would you should not gather of these words, that I deny Baptism, as you were about to lay to my charge, or ever I had half told my tale. But I would not have you, nor no man so rash in judgement, to condemn the thing that they are not able to prove by the word, & to make it seem to the simple, that the outward washing of the water were the cause of faith.
Wood. My saying was, that they that beleue not,1 shall be damned, and be dāned already. But I dare not say, for all the goods vnder heauen, that all they that receiue no materiall baptisme by the water, shall be damned, as you haue sayd: yet I would you should not gather of these wordes, that I denye Baptisme, as you were aboute to laye to my charge, or euer I had halfe told my tale. But I would not haue you, nor no man so rash in iudgement, to cōdemn the thing yt they are not able to proue by the worde, & to make it seme to the simple, that the outward washing of the water were the cause of fayth.
Langd. Why, is it not so? will you deny it? Howe say you? Will you deny it? I say, the child hath no faith before it is baptised: and therefore the baptising bringeth the faith. How say you to it? Make me a plain answer to this question.
Langd. Why, is it not so? will you denye it? Howe say you? Will you denye it? I say, the childe hath no fayth before it is baptised: and therefore the baptising bringeth the fayth. How say you to it? Make me a playne answere to this question.
Wood. Now I perceive you go about nothing else, but to take vantage of my words. But by Gods help, I will answer you so,1 that you shall well see your sayings untrue. And yet I will not speak mine own words, but the words of the holy Ghost, out of the mouth of the prophets and Apostles: and then ask them whether they will deny it. You said, that faith cometh by Baptism, had by the use of material water.2 I must be so bold to ask you where Jacob was baptised before he had faith. S. Paul saith in the ninth chapter to the Romans: Or ever the children were borne, or ever they had done either good or bad, that the purpose of God which is by election, might stand, not by the reason of works, but by the grace of the caller, the elder shall serve the younger. Jacob I have loved, and Esau I hated. How think you, had this child faith or ever he were borne, or no? answer to this, if you can.
Wood. Nowe I perceiue you goe about nothing els, but to take vauntage of my wordes. But by Gods helpe, I will aunswere you so,1 that you shall well see your sayings vntrue. And yet I will not speak mine owne wordes, but the wordes of the holy Ghost, out of the mouth of the prophets and Apostles: and then aske them whether they wil deny it. You sayd, that fayth commeth by Baptisme, had by the vse of material water.2 I must be so bold to aske you where Iacob was baptised before he had fayth. S. Paule sayth in the ninth chapter to the Romanes: Or euer the childrē were borne, or euer they had done eyther good or bad, that the purpose of God which is by election, might stand, not by the reason of workes, but by the grace of the caller, the elder shall serue the younger. Iacob I haue loued, and Esau I hated. How think you, had this childe fayth or euer he were borne, or no? answere to this, if you can.
Lang. What, you speak of the old Law, Jacob was not christened, but circumcised. I speak of Baptism and you are gone from baptising to the time of Circumcision: answer me to the baptising. And me think by your talk, you deny original sin and free will,1 by the words that you brought in of S. Paul. For if children can be saved without baptism, then it must needs follow, that children have no original sin, the which is put away in the baptising. But I think you know not what original sin is, nor free will neither ⟨p. 1995⟩me think by your talk.
Lang. What, you speake of the olde Lawe, Iacob was not christened, but circumcised. I speake of Baptisme and you are gone from baptising to the time of Circumcision: answere me to the baptising. And me thinke by your talk, you deny originall sinne and free will,1 by the wordes that you brought in of S. Paule. For if children can bee saued without baptisme, then it must needes follow, that children haue no originall sinne, the which is put away in the baptising. But I thinke you know not what originall sinne is, nor free will neyther ⟨p. 1995⟩me thinke by your talke.
Wood. Yes, I praise God (I think) I can tell them all better then you can, me think even by your words. First I pray you what free will hath man to do good of himself? Tell me this first, & then I will answer to all your other questions that you have objected against me.
Wood. Yes, I prayse God (I thinke) I can tell them all better then you can, me thinke euē by your words. First I pray you what free will hath man to doe good of himselfe? Tell me this first, & then I will answere to all your other questions that you haue obiected agaynst me.
Wood. I pray you how prove you that?
Wood. I pray you how proue you that?
