The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
you see, we must conclude on his own principles, that the clean offering, which Malachi writeth of, doth signify the spiritual sacrifices of Christians, and not the sacrifice of the Mass. The third and fourth reasons have greater show, but lesser weight. For, though it be true that spiritual sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Jews with us, and therefore may seem not to be the offering spoken of in Malachi, which, beside that it is proper to the Gospel and the Gentiles, it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Jews, and be offered in their stead: ⟨p. 565⟩yet if we mark the difference that the scriptures put between the Jewish worship of God in the law, and the Christian in the gospel, that seeming will melt as snow before the sun. For in the law of Moses, the Jews, cto the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ & duty of thankfulness which they did owe to God for it, might still be set before them as in a figure & shadow; were willed dto offer beasts without spot & blemish in sacrifice, with ceremonies thereto annexed, and to offer them ein the place that God should choose, which was fthe city of Jerusalem, and gthe sanctuary, that is to say, the temple built therein. Now Christ, in the gospel, when that was fulfilled which the temple of Jerusalem and sacrifices did represent, showed that hthe time of reformation was come, and removed that worship both in respect of the place and of the manner of it. For as it was prophesied that ihe should destroy the city and the sanctuary, kand cause the sacrifice and offering to cease: so him self taught that
he would be worshipped in spirit and truth. The Christian worship therefore that did succeed the Jewish, doth differ from it in two points: one, that it worshippeth God not in Jerusalem, but in all places; an other, that it worshippeth him in spirit, and truth; in spirit, without
the Gentiles by the Gospel are called to be Saints:
you see, we must conclude on his owne principles, that the cleane offering, which Malachie writeth of, doth signifie the spirituall sacrifices of Christians, and not the sacrifice of the Masse. The third and fourth reasons haue greater shew, but lesser weight. For, though it be true that spirituall sacrifices of praying to God and doing good to men are common to the Iewes with vs, and therefore may seeme not to be the offering spoken of in Malachie, which, beside that it is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles, it should succeed also the sacrifices of the Iewes, and be offered in their steede: ⟨p. 565⟩yet if we marke the difference that the scriptures put betweene the Iewish worship of God in the law, and the Christian in the gospel, that séeming wil melt as snow before the sunne. For in the law of Moses, the Iewes, cto the intent that both their redemption by the death of Christ & dutie of thankfulnesse which they did owe to God for it, might stil be set before them as in a figure & shadow; were willed dto offer beastes without spot & blemish in sacrifice, with ceremonies thereto annexed, and to offer them ein the place that God should choose, which was fthe citie of Ierusalem, and gthe sanctuarie, that is to say, the temple built therein. Now Christ, in the gospell, when that was fulfilled which the temple of Ierusalem and sacrifices did represent, shewed that hthe time of reformation was come, and remoued that worship both in respect of the place and of the maner of it. For as it was prophecied that ihe should destroy the citie and the sanctuary, kand cause the sacrifice and offering to cease: so him selfe taught that lnow the Father would not be worshipped in Ierusalem, nor mas the Iewes did worship him, but nhe would be worshipped in spirit and truth. The Christian worship therefore that did succéede the Iewish, doth differ from it in two pointes: one, that it worshippeth God not in Ierusalem, but in all places; an other, that it worshippeth him in spirit, and truth; in spirit, without othe carnall ceremonies & rites; in truth, without pthe shadowes of the law of Moses. The which sort of worship séeing qhee requireth of the true worshippers, that is of all the Saintes, his seruants; and in the new testament rthe Gentiles by the Gospell are called to be Saintes:
the worship, that is proper to the Gospel and the Gentiles, is the true spiritual worship of God, the sreasonable serving of him by tgodliness, and ugood works, in righteousness, and true holiness; even xthe offering up of spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. And thus you may see the weakness of those cavils which are brought to prove that our spiritual sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachi saith it shall be offered to him in every place. For the former of them, that spiritual sacrifices of prayers and works are common to the Jews with us, deceiveth with a fallacy: because ou• spiritual are spiritual merely, whereas they had carnal sacrifices with their spiritual. The later doth ⟨p. 566⟩discover this fraud of the former, but with an other fraud. For in that it saith, that praying, fasting, and the works of charity were joined to their sacrifices: it showeth that their worship (though in part spiritual) was not spiritual merely. But in that it gathereth thereof, that these things cannot succeed their sacrifices, there is an other fallacy: because although the worship of God were still spiritual, as 5he is still a spirit, and so no worship may succeed, for how can a thing succeed it self? yet, the same in substance came forth in sundry manners, and so one manner of it might succeed an other. As 6the word of God, touching the salvation of men by faith in Christ, was always the same: but uttered in sundry manners by the Prophets, and by Christ. In which sort the worship of God was ordered also: by the Prophets, acovertly, under the veils of ceremonies; by Christ, bplainly and simply. Wherefore, as the doctrine of Christ did succeed the doctrine of the Prophets, both the same doctrine, but taught by Christ more clearly, more darkly by the Prophets: so the spiritual worship of God in the Gospel succeeded his spiritual worship in the law, both the same worship, but laden with ceremonies & shadows in the law, disburdened of them in the Gospel.
the worship, that is proper to the Gospell and the Gentiles, is the true spirituall worship of God, the sreasonable seruing of him by tgodlines, and ugood workes, in righteousnes, and true holines; euen xthe offering vp of spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God by Iesus Christ. And thus you may sée the weakenes of those cauils which are brought to proue that our spirituall sacrifices cannot be the offering whereof God in Malachie saith it shall be offered to him in euery place. For the former of them, that spirituall sacrifices of prayers and workes are common to the Iewes with vs, deceiueth with a fallacie: because ou• spirituall are spirituall méerely, whereas they had carnall sacrifices with their spirituall. The later doth ⟨p. 566⟩discouer this fraude of the former, but with an other fraude. For in that it saith, that praying, fasting, and the workes of charity were ioyned to their sacrifices: it sheweth that their worship (though in part spiritual) was not spiritual méerely. But in that it gathereth thereof, that these things cannot succeede their sacrifices, there is an other fallacie: because although the worship of God were still spirituall, as 5hée is still a spirit, and so no worship may succéede, for how can a thing succéede it selfe? yet, the same in substance came foorth in sundry maners, and so one maner of it might succéede an other. As 6the word of God, touching the saluation of men by faith in Christ, was alwayes the same: but vttered in sundry maners by the Prophets, and by Christ. In which sort the worship of God was ordered also: by the Prophets, acouertly, vnder the vailes of ceremonies; by Christ, bplainly and simply. Wherefore, as the doctrine of Christ did succéede the doctrine of the Prophets, both the same doctrine, but taught by Christ more cléerely, more darkely by the Prophets: so the spirituall worship of God in the Gospell succéeded his spirituall worship in the law, both the same worship, but laden with ceremonies & shadows in the law, disburdned of them in the Gospell.
Hart. I can not see those fallacies which you charge D. Allen with. For if the Jews did offer prayers to God and other such spiritual sacrifices, as they did: then is it true, as he saith, that spiritual sacrifices are common unto them with us. And if they be common unto them with us, it followeth, in my judgement, that ours succeed not theirs: sith to succeed, is to come after; and how may that come after which did go before?
Hart. I can not sée those fallacies which you charge D. Allen with. For if the Iewes did offer prayers to God and other such spirituall sacrifices, as they did: then is it true, as he saith, that spirituall sacrifices are common vnto them with vs. And if they be common vnto them with vs, it foloweth, in my iudgement, that ours succeede not theirs: sith to succeede, is to come after; and how may that come after which did go before?
Rainoldes. I have showed, how. And if you see it not: cthe veil may be the cause, which is very likely to be laid on your heart in reading of the new testament, as it was on the heart of others, in reading of the old. For the thing is plain of it self, and evident, that the spiritual sacrifices which the Jews offered, as namely their prayers, did not discharge their duty but they must offer carnal also; and that not every where, but in the place that God had chosen. In so much, that albeit they might pray in all places lawfully, as we may, yet must they come thither to worship God dat certain times: and Daniel, though he could not because of their captivity, yet ⟨p. 570⟩chad his windows open toward Jerusalem, when he prayed: and the faithful wept by the rivers of Babylon, fhow should we sing the lords song in a strange land? and the princely Prophet lamented that his banishment did keep him gfrom appearing there, and longed hto behold the power and glory of God, as he beheld it in the sanctuary; and being sick as it were iwith the love of his tabernacles, yea kfainting with desire of coming to his courts and laltars, he pronounced them mblessed who dwell in that house, yea, nwho may come unto it, yea othough they travail hardly thereto through dry places, pto present themselves before God in Zion. Whereas Christians, of the other side, qneither have those altars or offerings made thereon to join with their spiritual rsacrifice of praise, and they may ssing the songs of the Lord tin all places. No land is strange: no ground unholy. Every coast is Jewry, and every town Jerusalem, and every house Zion, and uevery faithful company, yea xevery faithful body a temple to serve God in. The Christian worship then doth differ even in prayers from that of the Jews, both in respect of the temple, ywhich they had a regard to: and of the ceremonies of the law, which they were bound therewith to keep. Wherefore, as zthe ministry of the new testament, that is, of them who taught the gospel, came after the ministry of Priests in the old, and yet both old and new are the Lords testament: so might and did the worship of God amongst Christians in spirit and truth come after the worship of God amongst the Jews, though yet they both did worship God spiritually. For the Jews before did worship in the temple with the ceremonies of the law:
Rainoldes. I haue shewed, how. And if you sée it not: cthe vaile may be the cause, which is very likely to be laide on your heart in reading of the new testament, as it was on the heart of others, in reading of the olde. For the thing is plaine of it selfe, and euident, that the spirituall sacrifices which the Iewes offered, as namely their prayers, did not discharge their duetie but they must offer carnall also; and that not euery where, but in the place that God had chosen. In so much, that albeit they might pray in all places lawfully, as wée may, yet must they come thither to worship God dat certaine times: and Daniel, though hée could not because of their captiuitie, yet ⟨p. 570⟩chad his windowes open toward Ierusalem, when hee praied: and the faithfull wept by the riuers of Babylon, fhow should we sing the lords song in a strange lande? and the princely Prophet lamented that his banishment did keepe him gfrom appeering there, and longed hto behold the power and glory of God, as he beheld it in the sanctuary; and being sicke as it were iwith the loue of his tabernacles, yea kfainting with desire of coming to his courts and laltars, he pronounced them mblessed who dwell in that house, yea, nwho may come vnto it, yea othough they trauaile hardly thereto through drye places, pto present themselues before God in Sion. Whereas Christians, of the other side,
as when athe Priest was burning incense at the altar in the inner part thereof, bthe multitude of the people were praying in the outer. And the Christians after did pray without incense in any place, the people and Pastor all together: as cthe Apostles with the disciples, and (d according to their instruction) ethe primitive Churches practise show. But these points of difference between us and them be perhaps the harder for you to understand, because your Popish worship is so like the Jewish, both for the temple, and the ceremonies, that you may justly think their worship was in spirit and truth as much as yours. For as the Priest with them was severed from the people by the division of ⟨p. 567⟩the sanctuary and court of the temple: fso with you, by the chancel and body of the church. As with them ghe burned incense at the altar: hso with you he doth. As with them ihe was clad in an Ephod, a mitre, a broidered coat, a girdle, a breastplate, and a robe, and they who served him were in their linen coats too: kso with you he must have an amice, an alb, a girdle, a fanel, a chasuble, and a stole, and they who are about him have surplices, yea copes also. Their Priests had la laver whereat they must wash before they sacrificed: mso have yours. Your nveil between the quire and the altar in lent, resembleth otheirs, that severed the holy place from the most holy. Your ppyx with the sacrament, and their qark with the mercy seat; your rphylactery with Saints relics, and their 18pot with Manna; your tmonstrance with the host, and utheir table with the show-bread; your xholy oil of balm, and ytheirs of myrrh with spices; ztheir purifying water made of the ashes of an heifer, and ayours of other ashes with water, wine, and salt; btheir fire sent from heaven, and cyours fetched *thence by art; their drod of Aaron, and eyour cross of Christ; finally, fyour candles, or tapers, or torches, and gtheir candlestick with lamps, do match one an other in proportion of rites: nay, you surpass them in your candles. For htheirs were lighted in the night: iyours, in the day too. Theirs, in the temple only: yours, kabroad also. Theirs, before the Lord: yours, lbefore images. Theirs, in one manner: yours, mwith great variety. Theirs, in small number: yours, at ntimes, and places, as many as the sand of the sea.
as when athe Priest was burning incense at the altar in the inner part therof, bthe multitude of the people were praying in the outter. And the Christians after did pray without incense in any place, the people and Pastour all together: as cthe Apos•les with the disciples, and (d according to their instruction) ethe primitiue Churches practise shew. But these points of difference betweene vs and them be perhaps the harder for you to vnderstand, because your Popish worship is so lyke the Iewish, both for the temple, and the ceremonies, that you may iustly thinke their worship was in spirit and truth as much as yours. For as the Priest with them was seuered from the people by the diuision of ⟨p. 567⟩the sanctuarie and court of the temple: fso with you, by the chancell and body of the church. As with them ghe burned incense at the altar: hso with you he doth. As with them ihe was clad in an Ephod, a miter, a broydered coate, a girdle, a brestplate, and a robe, and they who serued him were in their linen coates too: kso with you he must haue an amice, an albe, a girdle, a fanel, a chisible, and a stole, and they who are about him haue surplesses, yea copes also. Their Priestes had la lauer whereat they must wash before they sacrificed: mso haue yours. Your n
And what should I speak of the rest of the things in which you do not only follow their ceremonies, but also go beyond them? Your oconsecrating of Bishops, of churches, of altars, of pattens, of chalices, and other instruments of your Priesthood, by anointing them, paccording to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle. Your qshaving, as of rLevites; your simagery, as from tSolomon; your uhallowing of men, xbelles, yashes, zboughs, abread, bthe ⟨p. 568⟩paschal Lamb, cthe paschal taper, dagnus-deis (and what not?) with eexorcized water: wherewith almost all things are purged by your law, as fby theirs with blood. Your purifying (as gthey called it) or (as you term it) hreconciling of a churchyard, or other sacred place, if it be polluted. In conclusion, to pass over your ifestival days, exceeding theirs in kshadows; your lmystical devises in sacraments, to their pattern; your mpontifical robes, in figures incomparable, in number double unto theirs; and infinite solemnities of your nhiest Priest, who oentereth *once a year into the place most holy, pas did the high Priest of the Jews: your daily sacrifice of the Mass, though inferior to qtheirs in that it is no burnt offering, wherein yet I marvel you came no nearer them, for as rthey kept fire on the altar always, sso do you require it, and what should you have fire upon your altar as they had, unless you burn as they did? but your daily sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated in such Levitical sort, as if you contended to set forth a Jewish worship more lively then the Levitical Priests could. In attire like them, in mysteries above them, in torders more exquisite, in ucautels more diligent, in furniture abundantly: in lifting up the whole host, and not (as xthey) a part of it, in yringing of the sacring bell to countervail ztheir trumpets: in washing often, in blessing and crossing, in censing often, in soft speech and whispering, in kissing of the amice, kissing of the fanel, kissing of the stole, kissing of the altar, kissing of the book, kissing of the Priests hand, and kissing of the pax: in smiting and knocking, in gesturing by rule and measure, in bowing and ducking, in spacing forward, backward, and turning round about, and traversing of the ground: beside the sweet music of aorgans, and so forth, where it may be had, as in bthe temple it might. I doubt not, M.
And what should I speake of the rest of the things in which you do not onely folow their ceremonies, but also go beyond them? Your oconsecrating of Bishops, of churches, of altars, of patens, of chalices, and other instruments of your Priesthood, by anointing them, paccording to the order of Aaron and the tabernacle. Your qshauing, as of rLeuites; your simagery, as from tSalomon; your uhalowing of men, xbelles, yashes, zboughes, abread, bthe ⟨p. 568⟩paschal Lambe, cthe paschal taper, dagnus-deis (and what not?) with eexorcized water: wherwith almost all thinges are purged by your law, as fby theirs with blood. Your purifying (as gthey called it) or (as you terme it) h
yOn Ash•-wednesday. Durand. l. 6. c. 28.On Ash•-wensday. Durand. l. 6. c. 28.
zOn Palm-sunday. Durand. l. 6. c. 67.On Palme-sunday. Durand. l. 6. c. 67.
al. 4. c. 53.
bl. 6. c. 86.
ccap. 80.
dcap. 79.
eMissal Rom. reformat. a Pio quinto. Sacerdotal Rom. eccles. edit. a Samarin. part. 2.Missale Rom. reformat. a Pio quinto. Sacerdotale Rom. eccles. edit. a Samarin. part. 2.
Hart, but you are persuaded that this kind of service in your Church is Christian: and such, that if our selves were present at the doing, the solemn doing of it, specially at Christmas, Easter, and such other more festival times, the most of our stony hearts would melt for joy, as your cBristow writeth. But in very truth it is more then Jewish: and his conceit thereof is childish, and carnal. For although it might be delightful to the flesh, the eyes with gallant sights; the ears, with pleasant sounds; the nose▪ with fragrant ⟨p. 567⟩savours; the mind, with show of godliness, to him that doth not understand: yet da spiritual man would be grieved at it, as ePaul was in Athens, and lament that the people should do•te upon that by which they are fnot edified, and weep over them as gChrist over Jerusalem, O if thou hadst known at least in this thy day those things which belong unto thy peace: but now are they hidden from thine eyes. The Lord htake away this veil from your heart, if it be his good pleasure: that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth, and when you see it, do it.
Hart, but you are perswaded that this kind of seruice in your Church is Christian: and such, that if our selues were present at the doing, the solemne doing of it, specially atChristmas, Easter, and such other more festiual times, the most of our stonie hartes would melt for ioy, as your cBristow writeth. But in verie truth it is more then Iewish: and his conceit thereof is childish, and carnal. For although it might be delitefull to the flesh, the eies with galant sightes; the eares, with pleasant soundes; the nose▪ with fragrant ⟨p. 567⟩sauours; the minde, with shew of godlines, to him that doth not vnderstand: yet da spiritual man would be grieued at it, as ePaule was in Athenes, and lament that the people should do•te vpon that by which they are fnot edified, and wéepe ouer them as gChrist ouer Ierusalem, O if thou hadst knowne at least in this thy day those things which belong vnto thy peace: but now are they hidden from thine eyes. The Lord htake away this vaile from your heart, if it be his good pleasure: that you may see at length what it is to worship him in spirit and truth, and when you sée it, doo it.
Hart. There is a veil rather of presumption over your heart, who condemn the Catholic ceremonies as Jewish: then of ignorance over ours, who embrace them as Christian. For ithe Council of Trent, which was gathered together and guided by the holy Ghost, hath accursed them who say that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, used in the solemn ministering of sacraments, may be despised. And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Mass, whereat your spite is greatest, kthe holy Fathers of that Council have showed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles, not on the law of Moses. For as much (say they) as the nature of men is such, that it cannot be lifted up easily to the meditation of divine things without outward helps: therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordained certain rites, to wit, that some things should be pronounced in the Mass with a soft voice, and some things with a louder. Moreover she hath used ceremonies too, as namely mystical blessings, lights, incense, vestments, and many other such things, *by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles: to the end that both the majesty of so great a sacrifice might be set forth, and the minds of the faithful might be raised up by these visible signs of religion and godliness to the contemplation of most high things which do▪ lye hidden in this sacrifice. These are the Councels words. Whereby you may perceive, that the rites and ceremonies used at the Mass, are not Jewish, but Apostolic: as (if need were) it might be showed in particulars, of incense, by S. lDenis; of lights, by S. mAustin; of the rest, by other Fathers.
Hart. There is a vaile rather of presumption ouer your heart, who cōdemne the Catholike ceremonies as Iewish: then of ignorance ouer ours, who embrace them as Christian. For ithe Councell of Trent, which was gathered togither and guided by the holy Ghost, hath accursed them who say that the receiued and approued rites of the Catholike Church, vsed in the solemne ministring of sacraments, may be despised. And those of the blessed sacrifice of the Masse, whereat your spite is greatest, kthe holy Fathers of that Councell haue shewed to be grounded on the tradition of the Apostles, not on the law of Moses. For as much (say they) as the nature of men is such, that it cannot be lifted vp easily to the meditation of diuine things without outward helpes: therefore our holy mother the Church hath ordeined certaine rites, to weete, that some things should be pronounced in the Masse with a soft voice, and some things with a lowder. Moreouer she hath vsed ceremonies too, as namely mystical blessings, lightes, incense, vestiments, and many other such things, *by the discipline and tradition of the Apostles: to the ende that both the maiestie of so great a sacrifice might be set forth, and the minds of the faithful might be raised vp by these visible signes of religion and godlines to the contemplation of most high things which doo▪ lye hidden in this sacrifice. These are the Councels words. Whereby you may perceiue, that the rites and ceremonies vsed at the Masse, are not Iewish, but Apostolike: as (if neede were) it might be shewed in particulars, of incense, by S. lDenys; of lightes, by S. mAustin; of the rest, by other Fathers.
Hart. I, even of them too: as basely and scornfully as you speak of them. Nor yet are these of ours like in all respects to those which the Priests did wear amongst the Jews. From whom in other points our ceremonies differ also. As for example, their nincense was a perfume most precious: oours, is simple frankincense. Their plights must be of pure oil: qours are of wax, and may be of other stuff indifferently. Which sith it is likewise apparent in the rest, as you must needs confess, at least for sundry of them: you are to blame greatly to reproach the ceremonies of the Church as Jewish.
Hart. I, euen of them too: as basely and scornfully as you speake of them. Nor yet are these of ours like in all respectes to those which the Priestes did weare amongst the Iewes. From whome in other pointes our ceremonies differ also. As for example, their nincense was a perfume most pretious: oours, is simple frankincense. Their plightes must be of pure oyle: qours are of waxe, and may bee of other stuffe indifferently. Which sith it is likewise apparant in the rest, as you must néedes confesse, at least for sundrie of them: you are to blame greatly to reproch the ceremonies of the Church as Iewish.
Rainoldes. Nay, you did mistake me, if you thought I meant that they are all Jewish, or Jewish absolutely. For I must needs confess that some of them are Heathnish rather then Jewish. As namely the shaving of your Priests crowns: after the manner of rPriests of Isis in Egypt. Your lighting of candles on Candlemas-day:s which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans. Your painting or graving of the images of men: ta thing that Christians took 1by custom of the Heathens. Your 2censing of images, and setting tapers before them: uas the Romans also did, when they were Heathens. To be short, the whole substance of your image-worship, xyour kissing, kneeling, & creeping to the image of the cross, like ySicilians to Hercules; your images borne in procession, like to the zGrecians idols; your pilgrimage to Saints images, where they are most famous, as aour Lady of *Lauretto, like bDiana of Ephesus, with infinite such other fancies, do resemble lively the Heathnish rites of Paganism, and grew by likelihood from the Heathens. But I▪ because the temple of Solomon had images, although not of men; the Levites had shaving, although not of crowns; the tabernacle had lights, although not in the day time, much less at the beginning of February more then other times: did speak of your Popish rites herein as Jewish, to make the best of them. And for all the difference that you find betwixt them, of wax in yours, and oil in theirs; and their perfume, and your frankincense; though cfrankincense was mingled with their perfume also, and dmade an incense too without it; but granting this difference betwixt them ⟨p. 572⟩to the uttermost: yet are yours Jewish in the kind thereof, because they are shadows such as were the Jewish. And it is likely, that they who devised them did fetch them out of Moses, as they who defend them do ground them upon Moses. For the fairest colour that either Bishop eDurand, or fothers set upon them, is, that God ordained them in Moses law. As gPope Innocentius saith that the Catholic Church doth hold that Bishops ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sons: and again, that temples, and altars, and chalices ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle, and ark▪ and table with the vessels.
Rainoldes. Nay, you did mistake me, if you thought I meant that they are all Iewish, or Iewish absolutely. For I must néedes confesse that some of them are Heathnish rather then Iewish. As namely the shauing of your Priests crownes: after the maner of rPriestes of Isis in Egipt. Your lighting of candels on Candlemas-day:s which came from the Februall ceremonies of the Romans. Your painting or grauing of the images of men: ta thing that Christians tooke 1by custome of the Heathens. Your 2censing of images, and setting tapers before them: uas the Romans also did, when they were Heathens. To be short, the whole substance of your image-worship, xyour kyssing, kneeling, & creeping to the image of the crosse, like ySicilians to Hercules; your images borne in procession, like to the zGrecians idols; your pilgrimage to Saintes images, where they are most famous, as aour Ladie of *Lauretto, like bDiana of Ephesus, with infinit such other fansies, doo resemble liuely the Heathnish rites of Paganisme, and grew by likelyhood from the Heathens. But I▪ because the temple of Salomon had images, although not of men; the Leuites had shauing, although not of crownes; the tabernacle had lightes, although not in ye day time, much lesse at the beginning of Februarie more then other times: did speake of your Popish rites herein as Iewish, to make the best of them. And for all the difference that you find betwixt them, of waxe in yours, and oyle in theirs; and their perfume, and your frankincense; though
aLeand. Albe•t. descript. Italiae. Histor. S. Mariae Lauret. script. ab Hier. Angelit. ad Clement. sept.
*A town in Italy, where there is a temple of the blessed Virgin, more celebrated with lying miracles, and thereupon with resort of men: then her temple was at Walsingham in England, of which Erasmus writeth in Colloqu. Pe•egrinat. religionis ergo.A towne in Italie, where there is a temple of the blessed Virgin, more celebrated with lying miracles, and thereupon with resort of men: then her temple was at Walsingham in England, of which Erasmus writeth in Colloqu. Pe•egrinat. religionis ergo.
Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth, that the sacrament of unction (or anointing) doth figure and work an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old. And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Judaizing (that is, with doing as the Jews did) in that it celebrateth the sacrament of unction.
Hart. But Pope Innocentius addeth, that the sacrament of vnction (or anointing) doth figure and worke an other thing in the new testament then it did in the old. And thereof he concludeth that they lye who charge the Church with Iudaizing (that is, with doing as the Iewes did) in that it celebrateth the sacrament of vnction.
Rainoldes. Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference between the Jews and you, that your holy unction is made of oil, and balm, where theirs was made of oil & myrrh with other spices. He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuff of it would not clear your Church from Judaizing in the kind of the purgation, that is, the rite whereby you sanctify Priests and altars. No more, then if you should sacrifice a dog, and say that you do not therein as the Jews did, because they did sacrifice, not dogs, but sheep & oxen. As for the difference by which the Pope severeth your unction from theirs, that yours doth work and figure an other thing then theirs did: first, it wrought as much in their altars, as in yours, for any thing that I know. Secondly, it figured in their Priests the gifts of the holy ghost: which he saith it doth in yours. Thirdly, were it so that it had an other either work or meaning with you then with them, as after a sort it hath, both in respect of hhim, who ordered theirs; and ithe cause, why: yet might the ceremony be Jewish notwithstanding. For (I trust) you will not maintain but it were Judaism for your Church to sacrifice ka lamb in burnt offering, though you did it to signify, not Christ that was to come, las the Jews did, ⟨p. 573⟩but that Christ is come, and mhath by his passion both entered in himself and brought in others to his glory. At the least, S. Peter ndid constrain the Gentiles to Judaize, (as you term it,) when they were induced by his example and authority to allow the Jewish rite in ochoice of meats. Yet neither he, nor they allowed it in that meaning, which it was given to the Jews in. For it was given them pto betoken that holiness, and qtrain them up unto it, which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithful. And Peter knew rthat Christ had done this in truth, and staken away that figure, yea, tthe whole yoke of the law of Moses: which point he taught the Gentiles also. Wherefore, although your Church do keep the Jewish rites, with an other meaning then God ordained them for the Jews, as Pope Innocentius saith, to salve that blister: yet this of Peter showeth that the thing is Jewish, and you do Judaize who keep them.
Rainoldes. Yet Pope Innocentius doth not bring that difference betwene the Iewes and you, that your holy vnction is made of oyle, and balme, where theirs was made of oyle & myrrhe with other spices. He knew that the difference of this or that ingredient in the stuffe of it would not cléere your Church from Iudaizing in the kinde of the purgation, that is, the rite whereby you sanctifie Priests and altars. No more, then if you should sacrifice a dogge, and say that you doo not therein as the Iewes did, because they did sacrifice, not dogges, but shéepe & oxen. As for the difference by which the Pope seuereth your vnctiō from theirs, that yours doth worke and figure an other thing then theirs did: first, it wrought as much in their altars, as in yours, for any thing that I know. Secondly, it figured in their Priests the giftes of the holy ghost: which he saith it doth in yours. Thirdly, were it so that it had an other either worke or meaning with you then with them, as after a sort it hath, both in respect of hhim, who ordered theirs; and ithe cause, why: yet might the ceremonie be Iewish notwithstanding. For (I trust) you will not maintaine but it were Iudaisme for your Church to sacrifice ka lambe in burnt offering, though you did it to signifie, not Christ that was to come, las the Iewes did, ⟨p. 573⟩but that Christ is come, and mhath by his passion both entred in himselfe and brought in others to his glorie. At the least, S. Peter ndid constraine the Gentiles to Iudaize, (as you terme it,) when they were induced by his example and autoritie to allow the Iewish rite in ochoise of meates. Yet neither he, nor they allowed it in that meaning, which it was giuen to the Iewes in. For it was giuen them pto betoken that holines, and qtraine them vp vnto it, which Christ by his grace should bring to the faithfull. And Peter knew
Hart. S. Peter did not err in faith, but in behaviour, when he withdrew him self from eating with the Gentiles. For that was a default in conversation not in doctrine, as uTertullian saith. Neither doth S. xAustin think otherwise of it.
Hart. S. Peter did not erre in faith, but in behauiour, when he withdrew him selfe from eating with the Gentiles. For that was a defaute in conuersation not in doctrine, as uTertullian saith. Neither doth S. xAustin thinke otherwise of it.
Rainoldes. I grant. For he offended not in the truth of the gospel, but yin walking according to it, that having lived before not as the Jews, but Gentile-like, yet zthen he left the Gentiles for fear of the Jews, and adissembled his judgement touching that point of Christian doctrine. But this doth so much more convince both your Church of Judaizing in her ceremonies, and your doctrine of corrupting the gospel with that leaven. For if S. Peter bwas to be condemned, as causing them to Judaize, whom through infirmity he drew by example to play the Jews in one rite: what may your Church be thought of, which of settled judgement doth move and force Christians to play the Jews in so many? And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence, and submission, when S. Paul reproved him. But cPope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it. Wherefore the Pope, or rather the Popes and Papists all, who maintain the doctrine of the Trent-Council approving both dthe rest of your Jewish rites, and namely ethat of unction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius: they do not offend as the true Apostle of Christ ⟨p. 574⟩S. Peter did; but as the false Apostles, fwho troubled the Galatians, and perverted the gospel by mingling of the law with it.
Rainoldes. I graunt. For he offended not in the truth of the gospel, but yin walking according to it, that hauing liued before not as the Iewes, but Gentile-like, yet zthen hee left the Gentiles for feare of the Iewes, and adissembled his iudgement touching that point of Christian doctrine. But this doth so much more conuince both your Church of Iudaizing in her ceremonies, and your doctrine of corrupting the gospell with that leauen. For if S. Peter bwas to be condemned, as causing them to Iudaize, whom through infirmitie he drew by example to play the Iewes in one rite: what may your Church be thought of, which of setled iudgement doth moue and force Christians to play the Iewes in so many? And he did acknowledge the truth of the doctrine by silence, and submission, when S. Paul reproued him. But cPope Innocentius saith that they lye who touch your Church for it. Wherefore the Pope, or rather the Popes and Papists all, who maintaine the doctrine of the Trent-Councell approuing both dthe rest of your Iewish rites, and namely ethat of vnction confirmed out of Moses by Pope Innocentius: they doo not offend as the true Apostle of Christ ⟨p. 574⟩S. Peter did; but as the false Apostles, fwho troubled the Galatians, and peruerted the gospell by mingling of the law with it.
euery faithfull body a temple to serue God in. The Christian worship then doth differ euen in prayers from that of the Iewes, both in respect of the temple,
the ministery of the new testament, that is, of them who taught the gospell, came after the ministerie of Priestes in the old, and yet both old and new are the Lords testament: so might and did the worship of God amongst Christians in spirit and truth come after the worship of God amongst the Iewes, though yet they both did worship God spiritually. For the Iewes before did worship in the temple with the ceremonies of the law:
tOr monstraus, as D. Allen callenth it, De Eucharist. Sacram. cap. 30. It is a vessel, like a cage, having ••des of glass or crystal, that through them the consecrated cake set up therein, may be showed to men.Or monstraus, as D. Allen callēth it, De Eucharist. Sacram. cap. 30. It is a vessel, like a cage, hauing ••des of glasse or crystall, that through them the consecrated cake set vp therein, may be shewed to men.
mDurand. l. 2. c. 7 & l. 4. c. 6. & l. 6. c. 72.73.80.89. &c. […] eccles. l. 1. tit. 2.Durand. l. 2. c. 7 & l. 4. c. 6. & l. 6. c. 72.73.80.89. &c. 〈…〉 eccles. l. 1. tit. 2.
nChiefly on Candlemas-day, and •enebre-wednesday. Durand. l. 6. c. 72. & l. 7. c. 7.Chiefely on Candlemas-day, and •enebre-wensday. Durand. l. 6. c. 72. & l. 7. c. 7.
reconciling of a churchyard, or other sacred place, if it be polluted. In conclusion, to passe ouer your
so doo you require it, and what should you haue fyer vpon your altar as they had, vnlesse you burne as they did? but your dayly sacrifice of the Masse is celebrated in such Leuitical sort, as if you contended to set forth a Iewish worship more liuely then the Leuiticall Priests could. In attire like them, in mysteries aboue them, in
their trumpets: in washing often, in blessing and crossing, in censing often, in soft spéech and whispering, in kissing of the amice, kissing of the fanel, kissing of the stole, kissing of the altar, kissing of the booke, kissing of the Priests hand, and kissing of the pax: in smiting and knocking, in gesturing by rule and measure, in bowing and ducking, in spacing forward, backward, and turning round about, and trauersing of the ground: beside the swéete musicke of
made an incense too without it; but granting this difference betwixt them
⟨p. 572⟩
to the vttermost: yet are yours Iewish in the kinde thereof, because they are shadowes such as were the Iewish. And it is likely, that they who deuised them did fetch them out of Moses, as they who defend them doo ground them vpon Moses. For the fairest colour that eyther Bishop
Pope Innocentius saith that the Catholike Church doth holde that Bishops ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint Aaron and his sonnes: and againe, that temples, and altars, and chalices ought to be anointed, because the Lord commanded Moses to anoint the tabernacle, and arke▪ and table with the vessels.
the whole yoke of the law of Moses: which point he taught the Gentiles also. Wherefore, although your Church doo kéepe the Iewish rites, with an other meaning then God ordeined them for the Iewes, as Pope Innocentius saith, to salue that blister: yet this of Peter sheweth that the thing is Iewish, and you doo Iudaize who kéepe them.
