The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head…The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head…
The sum of the conference between John Rainoldes and John Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundry points, of the sufficiency and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministry of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the mass, with other controversies of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-government ... Penned by John Rainoldes, according to the notes set down in writing by them both: perused by John Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithful report of that which past in conference between them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise entitled, Six conclusions touching the Holy Scripture and the Church, written by John Rainoldes. With a defence of such things as Thomas Stapleton and Gregory Martin have carped at therein.The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.
John Rainolds 1549–1607Londini: printed by John Wolfe, 1584Londini: printed by Iohn Wolfe, 1584
475, [1], 479-674, 659-750 p. · 304k words · STC 20626 · ESTC S115546
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Rainoldes. And think you that S. Austin meant by these speeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped, God the Son is of one substance with the Father, God the Father is not begotten or borne?
Rainoldes. And thinke you that S. Austin meant by these spéeches that the scriptures teach not that God the holy Ghost is to be worshipped, God the Sonne is of one substance with the Father, God the Father is not begotten or borne?
Hart. He seemeth to have meant it. And xTorrensis (who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his works) allegeth these places to prove that Christians ought to believe many things which have come to us from the Apostles themselves (delivered as it were by hand) although they be not written expressly in scriptures.
Hart. Hée séemeth to haue meant it. And xTorrensis (who gathered S. Austins Confession out of all his workes) alleageth these places to proue that Christians ought to belieue manie things which haue come to vs from the Apostles themselues (deliuered as it were by hand) although they bee not written expresly in scriptures.
Rainoldes. The Jesuit Torrensis doth great wrong herein to the truth of God, to S. Austins credit, and to you who read him. And yet with such a sophism in the word [expressly:] that, if it should be laid unto his charge, he would wash his hands of it, as
he allegeth those places of S. Austin, thereby to prove Traditions: as though we had received that doctrine (touching God) by tradition unwritten, not by the written word. S. Austin, no such matter. But
the very word consubstantial to be showed in scripture: doth tell him that the thing it self is there found though not that word perhaps. Whereupon, he presseth him in like sort with
the word unbegotten: which the Arian having given to God the Father, and
⟨p. 87⟩
defending it: S. Austin replieth, that as he had termed the Father unbegotten, & well, although the word not written: so might the Son also be termed consubstantial; sith the scripture proveth the thing meant thereby. And as with this Arian: so with their bishop Maximinus.
Who having himself termed God the Father unbegotten or unborn, denied the holy Ghost to be equal to the Son, because it is not written that he is worshipped. To the which cavil of his S.
the holy Ghost is God, therefore to be worshipped. Thus, S. Austins meaning was of these points, that the scripture teacheth them. Whereby you may perceive the fraud of Torrensis. Who saying that they are not expressly written in the scriptures, left him self this refuge, that he might say they are not in express words, though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures. And yet, by referring
that title to traditions, induceth his reader to think that they are taught by tradition, not by scripture. A doctrine, which Arians will clap their hands at: that the Son of God is not (by scripture) of one substance with the Father. But let it be far from you, M. Hart, to think so profanely of the word of God. And, if you rest so much on Doctors of your own side, rest here on
Rainoldes. The Iesuit Torrensis dooth great wrong herein to the truth of God, to S. Austins credit, and to you who reade him. And yet with such a sophisme in the word [expresly:] that, if it should be laid vnto his charge, he would wash his handes of it, as yPilate did of Christes blood. For *he alleageth those places of S. Austin, thereby to proue Traditions: as though we had receiued that doctrine (touching God) by tradition vnwritten, not by the written word. S. Austin, no such matter. But cdealing with an Arian, who required 2the verie word consubstantiall to be shewed in scripture: doth tell him that the thing it selfe is there founde though not that word perhaps. Wherevpon, he presseth him in like sort with 1the word vnbegotten: which the Arian hauing giuen to God the Father, and ⟨p. 87⟩defending it: S. Austin replieth, that as he had termed the Father vnbegotten, & well, although the word not written: so might the Sonne also be termed consubstantiall; sith the scripture proueth the thing meant therby. And as with this Arian: so wt their bishop Maximinus. aWho hauing himself termed God the Father vnbegotten or vnborne, denied the holie Ghost to be equall to the Sonne, because it is not written that he is worshipped. To the which cauill of his S. bAustin answereth, that although it be not written in flat termes, yet is it gathered by necessarie consequence of that which is written, cThou shalt worship the Lord thy God, dthe holy Ghost is God, therefore to bee worshipped. Thus, S. Austins meaning was of these pointes, that the scripture teacheth them. Whereby you may perceiue the fraude of Torrensis. Who saying that they are not expresly written in the scriptures, left him selfe this refuge, that hee might say they are not in expresse wordes, though for sense and substance they are in the scriptures. And yet, by referring *that title to traditions, induceth his reader to thinke that they are taught by tradition, not by scripture. A doctrine, which Arians will clappe their handes at: that the Sonne of God is not (by scripture) of one substance with the Father. But let it be far from you, M. Hart, to thinke so prophanely of the word of God. And, if you rest so much on Doctors of your owne side, rest here on eThomas of Aquine rather: who saith that concerning God wee must say nothing but that which is founde in the holie scripture, *either in words, or in sense.
Which, as he confirmeth by fDenis, and gDamascene: so was it the common judgement of hthe Fathers, of S. Austin chiefly, as his books touching the Trinity do show. And, in ithe conclusion thereof (for evident proof of that which you denied) he giveth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set down in scripture of the Trinity. Wherefore the scripture compriseth the rule of faith for that point. And as for that point, so for all the rest, which kin that very book (whereof we spake) S. Austin noteth. It remaineth therefore that S. Austin meant not by lthe authority of the church, more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures.
Which, as he confirfirmeth by fDenys, and gDamascen: so was it the common iudgement of hthe Fathers, of S. Austin chiefly, as his bookes touching the Trinitie doo shew. And, in ithe conclusion thereof (for euident proofe of that which you denied) he giueth the name of the rule of faith to that which is plainly set downe in scripture of the Trinitie. Wherfore the scripture cōpriseth the rule of faith for that point. And as for that point, so for all the rest, which kin that very booke (whereof we spake) S. Austin noteth. It remaineth therfore that S. Austin meant not by lthe authoritie of the church, more then he signified by plainer places of the scriptures.
fDionys. de divin. nomin. ca. 1.Dionys. de diuin. nomin. ca. 1.
gDamascen. de orthod. sid. lib. 1. cap. 1. & 2.
hAugu. de Trinitat. lib. 1. ca. 2. & 4.
ilib. 15. cap. 2•.
kDe doctrin. Christia•. lib. 1. cap. 35.36.37. & 40.
Hart. Yes: his own words in that very sentence do yield sufficient proof (me thinks) that he did. For, if he signified by plainer ⟨p. 88⟩places of the scriptures, as much as he meant by the authority of the church then was it idle, when he had named the one, to add the other to it: chiefly in such sort, as that is added by S. Austin. For both the conjunction, the places of scriptures, and the authority of the church, should import things different: and I may say of words, as the Philosopher saith of things, That is done in vain by more that may be done by fewer.
Hart. Yes: his own words in that verie sentence doo yéeld sufficient proofe (me thinkes) that he did. For, if he signified by plainer ⟨p. 88⟩places of the scriptures, as much as he meant by the authoritie of the church then was it idle, when he had named the one, to adde the other to it: chiefly in such sort, as that is added by S. Austin. For both the coniunction, the places of scriptures, and the authoritie of the church, should import thinges different: and I may say of wordes, as the Philosopher saith of things, That is done in vaine by more that may be done by fewer.
Rainoldes. Nothing is done in vain, that is done to edify. The church might well be mentioned, as an interpreter of the word: though it teach not any thing beside the word of God. The people of Israel udid believe the Lord and his servant Moses: yet Moses did nothing but that the Lord commanded him. The wise man doth charge his son xto hearken to the instruction of his father, and forsake not the doctrine of his mother: yet they both (the father, and mother) teach one lesson, the chiefest wisdom, the fear of God. The same is fulfilled in this Moses, and the Lord; or rather in this mother, and our heavenly Father: of whom it hath been said well, yHe cannot have God to be his Father, who hath not the church to be his mother. For, God having purposed to make us his children and heirs of life eternal, as he prepared his word, to be, first, the seed, zthe immortal seed, of which we are begotten a new, afterward, the milk, athe sincere milk, whereby we (being borne) grow: so he ordained the church by her ministry to teach it, as it were a mother, first, to conceive and bring forth the children, afterward to nourish them, as babes new borne, with her milk. Which appeareth, as by bothers, so chiefly by S. cPaul, who travailed of them in childbirth, whom he sought to convert: and when they were new borne, he *nourished them with milk: to set before our eyes the duty of the church, and all the churches Ministers in bearing children unto Christ. Now, the milk which the church giveth to her children, she giveth it out of her breasts: and her two breasts, are the two testaments of the holy scriptures (by S. dAustins judgement) the old Testament, and the new. S. Austin therefore, saying, the rule of faith is received of the authority of the church: meant not that the church should deliver any thing, but only what she draweth out of the holy scriptures.
Rainoldes. Nothing is done in vaine, that is done to edifie. The church might well be mentioned, as an interpreter of the worde: though it teach not any thing beside the word of God. The people of Israel udid beleeue the Lord and his seruaunt Moses: yet Moses did nothing but that the Lorde commaunded him. The wise man doth charge his sonne xto hearken to the instruction of his father, and forsake not the doctrine of his mother: yet they both (the father, and mother) teach one lesson, the chiefest wisedome, the feare of God. The same is fulfilled in this Moses, and the Lord; or rather in this mother, and our heauenly Father: of whom it hath bene said well, yHe cannot haue God to be his Father, who hath not the church to be his mother. For, God hauing purposed to make vs his children and heires of life eternall, as he prepared his word, to be, first, the séede, zthe immortall seed, of which we are begotten a new, afterward, the milke, athe sincere milke, whereby wee (béeing borne) grow: so he ordeined the church by her ministerie to teach it, as it were a mother, first, to conceaue and bring foorth ye children, afterward to nourish them, as babes new borne, with her milke. Which appeareth, as by bothers, so chiefly by S. cPaul, who traueiled of them in childbirth, whom he sought to conuert: and when they were new borne, he *nourished them with milke: to set before our eyes the duetie of the church, and all the churches Ministers in bearing children vnto Christ. Now, the milke which the church giueth to her children, shée giueth it out of her brestes: and her two brestes, are the two testaments of the holie scriptures (by S. dAustins iudgement) the old Testament, and the new. S. Austin therefore, saying, the rule of faith is receiued of the authoritie of the church: meant not that the church should deliuer any thing, but onely what shee draweth out of the holie scriptures.
Hart. Not for milk perhaps, which babes are to suck: but ⟨p. 89⟩for strong meat wherewith men are nourished. For mothers feed not their children, being grown, with milk out of their breasts.
Hart. Not for milke perhaps, which babes are to sucke: but ⟨p. 89⟩for strong meate wherewith men are nourished. For mothers féede not their children, being growne, with mylke out of theyr brestes.
Rainoldes. But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures have both milk for babes, and strong meat for men: milk, in plainer things and easier to be understood; strong meat, in harder and greater mysteries. Yea, where *Christ said, that every Scribe which is taught unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto an householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things both new and old: S. eAustin judgeth that he meant by new things and old, the old and new testament. Wherefore, sith every pastor and teacher of the church is meant (f you grant) by this Scribe: it followeth by S. Austin that the meat which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the sustenance of his household, must be the Scripture only. Which the light of reason will induce you too, if you believe the former points. For the gPhilosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same things of which we do consist. Then, if we are begotten of Gods word, as seed: the word, as it is milk to nourish us, when we are young; so must it nourish us, when we are grown, as strong meat. But if it were so, that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat: yet must he needs have it, in that whereof we reason: for there he speaketh of milk. And he saith that the rule of faith is received of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authority of the church: to note the churches practise, hwhich, in catechizing of her young ones, taught them summarily the points of belief and the precepts of life. So that the simplest Christians, who had not read them selves the plainer places of the scriptures to learn the rule of faith, yet knew it by the catechism: wherein, through the ministry of the church, they learned it. Now, S. Austins catechism hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may suck out of plainer places of the scriptures. His rule of faith therefore delivered in the plainer places of the scriptures, is the same that the authority of the church delivered. In deed your inew Doctors in their Popish catechisms have precepts of the church, beside the precepts of the scriptures: & your church, kwhich nameth her self (though untruly) the mother of all churches, hath more then two breasts, a third, out of the which she poureth poison with her milk▪⟨p. 90⟩Whereby, through good usage, having killed her own children, she claimeth our churches children to be hers:
Rainoldes. But S. Austin addeth that the holy scriptures haue both milke for babes, and strong meat for men: milke, in plainer thinges and easier to be vnderstood; strong meate, in harder and greater mysteries. Yea, where *Christ said, that euerye Scribe which is taught vnto the kingdome of heauen is lyke vnto an housholder, who bringeth foorth out of his treasure thinges both newe and olde: S. eAustin iudgeth that hée meant by newe thinges and olde, the olde and newe testament. Wherefore, sith euery pastor and teacher of the church is meant (f you graunt) by this Scribe: it foloweth by S. Austin that the meate which he is to fetch out of his storehouse for the sustenance of his houshold, must be the Scripture onely. Which the light of reason will induce you too, if you beléeue the former pointes. For the gPhilosopher teacheth that we are nourished by the same thinges of which we do consist. Then, if we are begotten of Gods worde, as seede: the word, as it is milke to nourish vs, when we are young; so must it nourish vs, when we are grown, as strong meat. But if it were so, that S. Austin had not had this opinion touching strong meat: yet must he néedes haue it, in that whereof we reason: for there he speaketh of milke. And he sayth that the rule of faith is receiued of plainer places of the scriptures and of the authoritie of the church: to note the churches practise, hwhich, in catechizing of her young ones, taught them summarily the pointes of beléefe and the precepts of life. So that the simplest Christians, who had not read them selues the plainer places of the scriptures to learne the rule of faith, yet knewe it by the catechisme: wherin, through the ministery of the church, they learned it. Now, S. Austins catechisme hath nothing but the doctrine which Christians may sucke out of plainer places of the scriptures. His rule of faith therefore deliuered in the plainer places of the scriptures, is the same that the authoritye of the church deliuered. In déede your inewe Doctors in their Popish catechismes haue precepts of the church, beside the precepts of the scriptures: & your church, kwhich nameth her selfe (though vntruely) the mother of al churches, hath more then two brests, a third, out of the which shee powreth poyson with her milke
hAugust. de catechizand. rudibus, cap. 3.4.6.7 &c.
iCanisius in his latin, Ledesima in his Italian, Vaux in his English catechism.Canisius in his latin, Ledesima in his Italian, Vaux in his English catechisme.
kEcclesia Roman• omnium ecclesiarum matter & magistra. Concil, Trident. Sess. 7. de •aptism, can. 3. & Sess. 14. cap. •. & Sess▪ 22, […] & Sess▪ 25. dec•et. de lib. delect▪Ecclesia Roman• omnium ecclesiarum mater & magistra. Concil, Trident. Sess. 7. de •aptism, can. 3. & Sess. 14. cap. •. & Sess▪ 22, 〈…〉 & Sess▪ 25. dec•et. de lib. delect▪
as did lthe woman before Solomon. And the whore hath got her mattorneys of her minions, which do not only rail at us for not acknowledging her to be our mother: but also belie us *that we scoff at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church. But they whom God hath blessed with the spirit of wisdom, as he did Solomon, will easily discern, that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing, that we give the name of mother to the church with reverence and joy. Marry, the church of Rome to be called our holy mother, which neither is holy, nor our mother: that our souls detest, and wish that her stepmotherhood may be far from us. As for the rule of faith, to which she layeth claim by her advocate, your Doctor, pleading the title out of Austin, that we as acknowledging her child to be our sister, may take her for our mother: if we follow Solomon and rip up the plea with such a sword as he did; we shall find that the child is neither hers, nor *her husbands, but the holy scriptures. For Austin, in saying, the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authority of the church: named the Scriptures, as the matter, the church as the minister, whereof the rule of faith is learned. Your Doctor, supposing, as well the carpenter, as the timber, to be the stuff, whereof the house must be builded; doth lay his axe to both together: and squaring them alike, doth make him beams, and posts, and ivises, some of the timber, some of the carpenter. Even so, the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith: whereof the church ministers, as workmen, and builders, should frame the house of God: but in part, the church; in part, the scripture is the matter. Both which being molten, as were the nearrings of the Israelites, & wrought in fashion by your craftsman, not yielding unto it of weakness, as did Aaron, but seeking after it with greediness, as the people, who knew not what was become of Moses: they will make a rule of faith, not of Christs, but of the Popes faith. And this if it be decked with 1devises to the eye, as that was with gold, and set forth by 2men whose tongues are their own, and voices sweet to sing the song, oThese be thy Gods, ô Israel, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: it will move many to dance for joy about it, in as holy sort, as the golden calf did ⟨p. 91⟩move pthe Israelites to do.
as did lthe woman before Salomon. And the whore hath got her matturneies of her minions, which do not onely raile at vs for not acknowledging her to be our mother: but also belye vs *that we scoffe at and curse the very title of Holy mother the church. But they whom God hath blessed with the spirite of wisedome, as he did Salomon, will easily discern, that we are so far off from scoffing at and cursing, that we giue the name of mother to the church with reuerence and ioy. Marry, the church of Rome to be called our holy mother, which neither is holy, nor our mother: that our soules detest, and wish that her stepmotherhood may be farre from vs. As for the rule offaith, to which she layeth claime by her aduocate, your Doctor, pleading the title out of Austin, that wee as acknowledging her child to be our sister, may take her for our mother: if we folow Salomon and rippe vp the plea with such a sword as he did; we shall find that the child is neither hers, nor *her husbandes, but the holy scriptures. For Austin, in saying, the rule of faith is learned of plainer places of the Scriptures and of the authoritie of the church: named the Scriptures, as the matter, the church as the minister, wherof the rule of faith is learned. Your Doctor, supposing, as wel the carpenter, as the timber, to be the stuffe, whereof the house must be builded; doth laye his axe to both togither: and squaring them alike, doth make him beames, and postes, and iuises, some of the timber, some of the carpenter. Euen so, the holy scripture is not the whole matter of the rule of faith: whereof the church ministers, as workemen, and builders, should frame the house of God: but in part, the church; in part, the scripture is the matter. Both which being molten, as were ye nearerings of the Israelites, & wrought in fashion by your craftesman, not yéelding vnto it of weakenes, as did Aaron, but séeking after it with greedines, as the people, who knewe not what was become of Moses: they will make a rule of faith, not of Christes, but of the Popes faith. And this if it be decked with 1deuises to the eie, as that was with gold, and set foorth by 2men whose tongues are their owne, and voices sweete to sing the song,
mSander. in epist. ad Pium Quint. dedicat. de visib. monar. Staplet. prin. doctrine. lib. 8. cap. 19.Sander. in epist. ad Pium Quint. dedicat. de visib. monar. Staplet. prin. doctrin. lib. 8. cap. 19.
*Vulgatam catholicorum vocem de San• ta matr• ecclesia irrident hodie & execran•ur haeretici. Staplet.
*That is to say, the Popes who (in his Canon law) calleth the church his spouse. Nos justitiam nostram & ecclesiae sponsae nostrae nolentes ne gligere. c. Quoniam. de immunitat. ecclesiar. in Sext.That is to say, the Popes who (in his Canon law) calleth the church his spouse. Nos iustitiam nostram & ecclesiae sponsae nostrae nolentes ne gligere. c. Quoniam. de immunitat. ecclesiar. in Sext.
1With medals, agnus Deies, hallowed grains, •eades, cru•••ixes, and other such jewels.With medals, agnus Deies, halowed graines, •eades, cru•••ixes, and other such iewels.
2D. Allen, Campian, Howle•, the Censurer the Jesuits and Seminary-priests.D. Allen, Campian, Howle•, the Censurer the Iesuites and Seminarie-priestes.
Hart. It doth not become you, to scorn in this sort so grave and learned men, as M.D. Stapleton, and others whom you touch: much less the church of Rome, and least of all the Popes Holiness. 1Whose predecessors gave us our afirst faith in the time of the Britons, and restored it bafterward in the days of the English. And do you thus reward them for it? You will make some men perhaps, (if you use it) to give their judgement of you, with what spirit you do it.
Hart. It doth not become you, to scorne in this sort so graue and learned men, as M.D. Stapleton, and others whom you touch: much lesse the church of Rome, and least of al the Popes Holines. 1Whose predecessors gaue vs our afirst faith in the time of the Britannes, and restored it bafterward in the daies of the English. And do you thus reward them for it? You will make some men perhaps, (if you vse it) to giue their iudgement of you, with what spirite you do it.
1Allens Apology ofthe English Seminaries chap 2. out of Bede hist. Angl lib. 1.Allens Apolog•e ofthe English Seminaries chap 2. out of Bede hist. Angl lib. 1.
Rainoldes. If you will speak of him, who gave us our faith: you shall do well to lift up your eyes from dust and rottenness, and cast them somewhat qhigher. Else, although I will not condemn your spirit therefore, yet I shall fear you do not that honour to Gods rSpirit, which would beseem a child of God: for, swho is their father? But, to accept them as the givers of it, whose ministry God used in it: first, as it is doubted of the one side, whether the Britons had their first faith from Eleutherius, (it is tmore likely, no:) so, of the other side uit is confessed, that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory. Then, if it were so we had it first from them: yet we received it not from the Popes predecessors. For, as you take the name of Pope for supreme head, and supreme head for that power which you have defined: there was no Pope at all, when we received the faith. The brat was not yet borne, when Gregory the first, much less, when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome: as our conference will show. Thirdly, if they who were the predecessors of the Pope (though not as Pope) gave us our first faith: the successors can not complain they gave it freely; they have been paid sweetly for it. xYour men (to set them up) compare them to Balaam, and ythe church to his ass. In deed (we must grant) our church hath been the ass: but zyour Balaam hath not refused to accept *a house full of silver and gold, nay, he hath been glad to sue for it too. Last of all, if they had given it us freely, and plaid a kind mothers part: nevertheless, of mother transgressing, as she hath done, aour father saith unto us, *Contend with your mother, contend, that she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: to the intent she may remove her fornications out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts. S. Paul was bbrought up at the feet ⟨p. 92⟩of Gamaliel: cGamaliel, a great Pharisee. Neither was he only the scholar, but the dson of a Pharisee too. Yet, the duty and love which Paul did owe and bear to his father and master, should never have excused him before the judgement-seat of God, if he had cleaved still to the Pharisees sect, when God did lighten him with greater knowledge of his truth.
Rainoldes. If you will speake of him, who gaue vs our faith: you shall do well to lift vp your eies from dust and rottennesse, and cast them somewhat qhigher. Else, although I will not condemne your spirite therefore, yet I shall feare you doo not that honour to Gods rSpirite, which would beseeme a child of God: for, swho is their father? But, to accept them as the giuers of it, whose ministery God vsed in it: first, as it is doubted of the one side, whether the Britannes had their first faith from Eleutherius, (it is tmore likely, no:) so, of the other side uit is confessed, that all the English had it not from Austin sent by Gregory. Then, if it were so we had it first from them: yet we receiued it not from the Popes predecessors. For, as you take the name of Pope for supreme head, and supreme head for that power which you haue defined: there was no Pope at all, when we receiued the faith. The bratte was not yet borne, when Gregory the first, much lesse, when Eleutherius was Bishop of Rome: as our cōnference will shew. Thirdly, if they who were the predecessours of the Pope (though not as Pope) gaue vs our first faith: the successors can not complaine they gaue it fréely; they haue béene paid swéetely for it. xYour men (to set them vp) compare them to Balaam, and ythe church to his asse. In deede (we must graunt) our church hath béene the asse: but zyour Balaam hath not refused to accept *a house full of siluer and gold, nay, hee hath béene glad to sue for it too. Last of all, if they had giuen it vs fréely, and plaid a kind mothers part: neuerthelesse, of mother transgressing, as she hath done, aour father saith vnto vs, *Contend with your mother, contend, that she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: to the intent she may remoue her fornications out of her sight, and her adulteries from betweene her breastes. S. Paule was
tGildas a Britain, ancienter then Bede doth affirm the contrary. And Polidor. Vi•g l. lib. hist. Ang. 2. Gildas testis eft Britannos jam inde ab initio orti Evangelii Christianam accepisse religio nem.Gildas a Bri•tan, auncienter then Bede doth affirme the contrary. And Polidor. Vi•g l. lib. hist. Ang. 2. Gildas testis eft Britannos iam inde ab initio orti Euangelii Christianam accepisse religio nem.
uBede histor. Anglor. l. 3. c. 21. &. •2.
xGratian. 2. q. 7. c. Nossi. § cum Balaam.
yBenedict. Parisiensis, & Bullo c. Anglus in concordant▪ sacr. scripture. Asina, ecclesia.Benedict. Parisiensis, & Bullo c. Anglus in concordant▪ sacr. •criptur. Asina, ecclesia.
zThe Chronicles of Thom. Walsingham and Mat. Paris. Chiefly Mat. Paris in Henric. tert. anno Dom. 1245.1246. & 1247.The Chronicles of Thom. Walsingham and Mat. Paris. Chiefely Mat. Paris in Henric. tert. anno Dom. 1245.1246. & 1247.
As for me, of whom some will give their judgement with what spirit I do it, if I jest at your Pharisees, or touch your holy mothers whoredoms, and villainies of your holy Father: mens judgements I depend not of: I neither fear them nor despise them. I have *a judge to whom I stand. And I content my self that he assureth my spirit, I do it with the same spirit, though not with like measure of the same spirit, that eElijah did jest at Baalites, and fIsaiah did touch idolaters. Wherefore, to go forward with your discourse of D. Stapleton against our error of expounding the scriptures by scriptures: you have the ground of it, that they must be expounded by the rule of faith, and therefore not by scriptures only. Now, as his ground is, so are his proofs: both for your own means first, and afterward against ours. What infallibility and certainty there is in yours, gthe practise of the church, hthe consent of the Fathers, ithe Councels determination: it will appear (in place of trial) more hereafter, it hath in part already: when you were fain to fly from them all to the Pope, whom here the Doctor had forgotten. Touching ours: he proveth them to be deceitful and unsure, how? kbecause each of them, if they be taken severally, may cause a man to err: which he showeth by examples in some of the particulars, as, the weighing of the circumstances, the style and phrase of scripture, lthe conference of places, mthe looking on the Greek and Hebrew. First, if it were so: what shall I call this dealing, treachery, or folly? We teach of our means, that they all, together, do make a perfect way whereby we may find the right sense of the scripture. He replieth against us, that each of them, alone, and taken by it self, is not a perfect way to find it. In the which answer, if you see not his weakness (to speak the best of it:) I will set before you a glass to view it in. It is 1not many years ago, since Captain Stukely (2 the Marquess of Ireland, as your stories call him) nwas sent with six hundred Italians by the Pope to take possession of Ireland. ⟨p. 93⟩Which he was coming to have done, but that (at the request of the King of Portugal) *he went and took possession of Barbary by the way. An English man might say, to comfort good subjects, that (by Gods grace) these Italians and the Marquess, if they had arrived, might have been discomfited by the Queens army:
As for me, of whom some will giue their iudgement with what spirite I do it, if I iest at your Pharises, or touch your holy mothers whooredomes, and villanies of your holy Father: mens iudgements I depend not of: I neither feare them nor despise them. I haue *a iudge to whom I stand. And I content my selfe that he assureth my spirit, I doo it with the same spirit, though not with lyke measure of the same spirit, that eElias did iest at Baalites, and fEsay did touch idolaters. Wherefore, to go forward with your discourse of D. Stapleton against our errour of expounding the scriptures by scriptures: you haue the grounde of it, that they must be expounded by the rule of faith, and therefore not by scriptures onely. Now, as his ground is, so are his proofes: both for your owne meanes first, and afterward against ours. What infallibilitie and certaintie there is in yours, gthe practise of the church, hthe consent of the Fathers, ithe Councels determination: it will appeare (in place of triall) more hereafter, it hath in part alreadie: when you were faine to flie from them all to the Pope, whom here the Doctor had forgotten. Touching ours: he proueth them to be deceitfull and vnsure, how? kbecause each of them, if they be taken seuerally, may cause a man to erre: which he sheweth by examples in some of the particulars, as, the weighing of the circumstances, the style and phrase of scripture, lthe conference of places, mthe loking on the Greeke and Hebrue. First, if it were so: what shall I call this dealing, trecherie, or folly? Wee teach of our meanes, that they all, togither, doo make a perfit way whereby wée may finde the right sense of the scripture. He replieth against vs, that each of them, alone, and taken by it selfe, is not a perfit way to finde it. In the which aunswere, if you sée not his weakenes (to speake the best of it:) I will set before you a glasse to view it in. It is
as the Popes soldiers were, who came after them. D. Sanders might reply, to encourage the rebels, that they need not fear it: because the Queens soldiers, though they have some strength, yet each of them, alone, and severed from the rest, cannot overcome six hundred Italians, with such a Captain too. And for proof hereof that it is very likely, he might have store of arguments, examples, and testimonies, to discourse at large: with as great eloquence, and no less wisdom, then D. Stapleton hath done to prove the other. Yet this in D. Stapleton is *a demonstration. Had the other been a demonstration too? No marvel that you send us so many books over, if they be fraught with wares of such demonstration. Marvell, you send no mo: unless it be lawful for none but public readers, so subtly to prove their things by demonstration. Now, if your Doctors answer be absurd, though none of our means were certain and sure, alone, without the rest, to find the right sense of Scripture: how much more absurd, if any one of them, alone, be sure and certain, and that in his own judgement too? The conference of places of the scripture is so: though he would hide it with a mist. But the mist which ohe casteth, is no thicker then the former. A weak eye may see through it. For we say, that 1a right conference of places, is a way most excellent: as himself rehearseth our words of that point. And he thereto replieth, that 2a wrong conference, a left one, (so to term it) is no such excellent way. Which is, as if we said, that wise men and virtuous are fit to bear offices in the common-weal: and he, to prove the contrary, should say that mad men and knaves are no good magistrates. If we can see through this mist, the conference of places is a perfect way. For that which we mean by conference of places: S. Austin doth signify by the rule of faith. But pthe rule of faith, is a way infallible, in your Doctors judgement. Therefore (to judge him of his own mouth) the conference of places is a way infallible. If this alone: much more this & all the rest being joined together. The means then which ⟨p. 94⟩we commend to understand and expound the scripture: are sure and certain means whereby the right sense of scripture may be found.
as the Popes souldiours were, who came after them. D. Sanders might reply, to incourage the rebels, that they néed not feare it: because the Quéenes souldiours, though they haue some strength, yet each of them, alone, and seuered from the rest, cannot ouercome sixe hundred Italians, with such a Captaine too. And for proofe hereof that it is verie likely, he might haue store of arguments, examples, and testimonies, to discourse at large: with as great eloquence, and no lesse wisedome, then D. Stapleton hath done to proue the other. Yet this in D. Stapleton is *a demonstration. Had the other bene a demonstration too? No maruell that you send vs so many bookes ouer, if they be fraught with wares of such demonstration. Maruell, you send no mo: vnlesse it be lawfull for none but publike readers, so subtilly to proue their things by demonstration. Now, if your Doctors answere be absurd, though none of our meanes were certaine and sure, alone, without the rest, to finde the right sense of Scripture: how much more absurd, if any one of them, alone, be sure and certaine, and that in his owne iudgement too? The conference of places of the scripture is so: though he would hide it with a mist. But the mist which ohe casteth, is no thicker then the former. A weake eye may sée through it. For we say, that 1a right conference of places, is a way most excellent: as himselfe rehearseth our wordes of that point. And he thereto replyeth, that 2a wrong conference, a left one, (so to terme it) is no such excellent way. Which is, as if we said, that wise men and vertuous are fit to beare offices in the common-weale: and he, to proue the contrarie, should say that madde men and knaues are no good magistrates. If we can sée through this mist, the conference of places is a perfit way. For that which we meane by conference of places: S. Austin doth signifie by the rule of faith. But pthe rule of faith, is a way infallible, in your Doctors iudgement. Therefore (to iudge him of his owne mouth) the conference of places is a way infallible. If this alone: much more this & all the rest being ioyned togither. The meanes then which ⟨p. 94⟩we commend to vnderstand and expound the scripture: are sure and certaine meanes whereby the right sense of scripture may bée found.
But your Doctor saith qthat all heretics, and Jews, & Paynims use these means, they confer places, they note the kind of speeches, they look upon the fountains, they mark what goeth before, what cometh after, & such like things. If they do not so: your Doctor over-lasheth. If they do so: they do more then himself doth in many controversies of faith, which yet he teacheth publicly, and printeth them too. What? And do all heretics, Jews and Paynims use these means: and doth none of them see the churches practise; mark the consent of Fathers; read the decrees of councils? If any of them do; which it is evident many do: then by as wise a reason, as your Doctor maketh, these his own means are not sure neither. Which were a sore consequence, and would raze the church of Rome unto the ground. Let him bethink him self thereof, and heal the breaches, which (if he look not to it) his own shot will make in the walls of his Jerusalem. As for us and our means, if any seem to use them, and yet miss the right sense of the scripture: I say with rS. Austin (whom this quarrel maketh as much against, as us;) If they who know these precepts, cannot see the things which are obscure and dark in the Scriptures of God, the fault is in them selves, not in the precepts: as if I should point with my finger at a star, which they would gladly see, and their eye-sight were so weak, that although they could see my finger, yet could they not see the star at which I point. Wherefore as S. Austin concludeth of them, Let them cease to blame me, and let them pray to God, that he will give them eye-sight: so we do acknowledge that all means are vain, unless the Lord give eyes to see: whom therefore the sProphet made his prayer to, Open mine eyes, that I may see the wonders of thy law.
But your Doctor saith qthat al heretikes, and Iewes, & Paynims vse these meanes, they conferre places, they note the kinde of speeches, they looke vpon the fountains, they marke what goeth before, what commeth after, & such like things. If they doo not so: your Doctor ouer-lasheth. If they doo so: they doo more then himselfe dooth in many cōtrouersies of faith, which yet he teacheth publikely, and printeth them too. What? And do all heretikes, Iewes and Paynims vse these meanes: and doth none of them sée the churches practise; marke the consent of Fathers; read the decrees of councels? If anie of them doo; which it is euident many doo: then by as wise a reason, as your Doctor maketh, these his owne meanes are not sure neyther. Which were a sore consequence, and would raze the church of Rome vnto the ground. Let him bethinke him selfe thereof, and heale the breaches, which (if he looke not to it) his owne shot will make in the walles of his Ierusalem. As for vs and our meanes, if any seeme to vse them, and yet misse the right sense of the scripture: I say with rS. Austin (whom this quarell maketh as much against, as vs;) If they who know these precepts, cannot see the things which are obscure and darke in the Scriptures of God, the faulte is in them selues, not in the precepts: as if I should point with my finger at a starre, which they would gladly see, and their eie-sight were so weake, that although they could see my finger, yet could they not see the starre at which I point. Wherefore as S. Austin concludeth of them, Let them cease to blame me, and let them pray to God, that hee will giue them eye-sight: so we do acknowledge that al meanes are vaine, vnlesse the Lord giue eies to see: whom therefore the sProphet made his prayer to, Open mine eies, that I may see the wonders of thy law.
qcap. 9.
rDe doctrin. Christian. lib. •. a prologue.De doctrin. Christian. lib. •. a prolog•.
Hart. You may say what you list. But experience showeth, and it is most certain, that many who allow those means, which you do, and expound the scripture by them, are themselves deceived, and deceive others. For, *the conference of places by which you set more then by all the rest, which you call a great remedy, and the best exposition of scripture that may be had: let this remedy be taken severally and by it self, it is marvellous ⟨p. 95⟩deceitful, yea pernicious and pestilent; so much the more, by how much (in show) it is more probable, and still at least corrupteth two places of scripture, if it be used perversely. In deed, we acknowledge gladly with S. Austin, that place receiveth light of place, and those things which one-where are spoken somewhat darkly, are other-where more clearly uttered. But in conference of scriptures it is to be known and diligently marked, *(which heretics will not mark, because they will not be catholics, and good children of the church:) first, that one saying may seem to be like or unlike an other, not so much for the likeness and unlikeness of things, as for the prejudice and affection of them by whom they are conferred. Secondly, that the same word, or kind of speech, hath not every where the same signification, but sometimes diverse, sometimes contrary. Thirdly, that there are many places in the scripture, which being uttered only once, have not any like wherewith you may confer them. Fourthly, and lastly, that all heretics both of this and of all ages, *in conferring the scriptures most diligently together, yet have erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully. Which reasons why the conference of places of scripture is a deceitful means of expounding the scripture, and leadeth often into error: D. Stapleton, a man well learned out of question, how weak soever you account him, hath set down and proved them with such examples, as might prevail with you perhaps, if you would weigh them.
Hart. You may say what you list. But experience sheweth, and it is most certaine, that manye who allow those meanes, which you do, and expound the scripture by them, are themselues deceiued, and deceiue others. For, *the conference of places by which you set more then by all the rest, which you call a great remedy, and the best exposition of scripture that may be had: let this remedy be taken seuerally and by it selfe, it is marueilous ⟨p. 95⟩deceitfull, yea pernicious and pestilent; so much the more, by how much (in shew) it is more probable, and still at least corrupteth two places of scripture, if it be vsed peruersly. In deede, we acknowledge gladly with S. Austin, that place receiueth light of place, and those thinges which one-where are spoken somewhat darkely, are other-where more cleerely vttered. But in conference of scriptures it is to be knowne and diligently marked, *(which heretikes will not marke, because they will not be catholikes, and good children of the church:) first, that one saying may seeme to be like or vnlike an other, not so much for the likenes and vnlikenes of thinges, as for the preiudice and affection of them by whom they are conferred. Secondly, that the same word, or kind of spéech, hath not euery where the same signification, but sometimes diuerse, sometimes contrarie. Thirdly, that there are many places in the scripture, which being vttered only once, haue not any like wherwith you may confer them. Fourthly, and lastly, that all heretikes both of this and of all ages, *in conferring the scriptures most diligently togither, yet haue erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully. Which reasons why the conference of places of scripture is a deceitfull meanes of expounding the scripture, and leadeth often into errour: D. Stapleton, a man well learned out of question, how weake soeuer you account him, hath set downe and proued them with such examples, as might preuaile with you perhaps, if you would weigh them.
*Staplet. prin. doctr. lib. 11. cap. 10.
*Quod obseruare haeretici nolunt, quia catholici & boni ecclesiae •ilii esse nolunt.
*Conferendo scripturas diligentissimé, erraverunt tamen in Scripturarum sensu turpissimé.Conferendo scripturas diligentissimé, errauerunt tamen in Scripturarum sensu turpissimé.
Rainoldes. I have weighed them, and I find them to light. The merchant, whom you praise, is rich, I deny not: but sure he useth false weights, and abuseth the simple, who take their wares upon his credit. Poor men, conceiving well of them whom they fancy, think him to deal uprightly for that he raileth at others, saying that they are deceivers, because they will not be honest dealers, and good children of the weal public. But let his words go: and have an eye to his weights. If you should tell a young beginner in shooting that they who look at the mark and louse directly towards it do not always hit it: your speech were a truth. But if you should say that all naughty archers which are, or ever were, have foully missed the mark in aiming at it most straightly: he might suspect either your skill, or your will, who train up archers so. What may we think then of him ⟨p. 96⟩who to persuade men that conference of scriptures is a deceitful way to hit their right sense, doth say that all heretics both of this and of all ages, in conferring the scriptures most diligently together yet have erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully? For though they might err in conferring of them: yet the fault thereof must be, not in conferring them most diligently, but in not conferring them diligently enough. And this is the last of your Doctors reasons. The next before it is no better. He saith, that there are many places in the scripture, which have not any like wherewith you may confer them. The proof he bringeth of it, is, that there are sundry speeches in S. Paul, which are in no Prophet, nor Apostle beside him: as (for example sake) to put of the old man, and put on the new. Which proof is like the point whereof it maketh proof. For, if the same speeches be not in any other, yet there are speeches like them, whereby they may be understood. Or, if not in others: yet in S. Paul himself, who lighteneth so his own speeches. Or, if not in him: yet confer them with the drift and circumstances of the text; the course of things and words will open what is meant by them. And so allege what place of scripture you list, the darkest that you can: let a man expound it after our rules, and it will never lead him into heresy. For either it hath plain places to expound it, and being expounded according unto them, it is far from heresy:
Rainoldes. I haue weighed them, and I find them to light. The marchant, whom you praise, is rich, I denie not: but sure he vseth false weights, and abuseth the simple, who take their wares vpon his credit. Poore men, conceiuing well of them whom they fansie, thinke him to deale vprightly for that he raileth at others, saying that they are deceauers, because they will not be honest dealers, and good children of the weale publike. But let his words go: and haue an eie to his weights. If you shoulde tell a yoong beginner in shooting that they who looke at the marke and louse directly towards it do not alwaies hit it: your speech were a truth. But if you should say that all naughtie archers which are, or euer were, haue fowlly missed the marke in aiming at it most straightly: he might suspect either your skill, or your will, who traine vp archers so. What may we thinke then of him ⟨p. 96⟩who to perswade men that conference of scriptures is a deceitfull way to hit their right sense, doth say that all heretikes both of this and of all ages, in conferring the scriptures most diligently togither yet haue erred in the sense of the scriptures most shamefully? For though they might erre in conferring of them: yet the fault thereof must be, not in conferring them most diligently, but in not conferring them diligently enough. And this is the last of your Doctors reasons. The next before it is no better. He saith, that there are many places in the scripture, which haue not any like wherewith you may conferre them. The proofe he bringeth of it, is, that there are sundry speeches in S. Paule, which are in no Prophet, nor Apostle beside him: as (for example sake) to put of the olde man, and put on the newe. Which proofe is like the point whereof it maketh proofe. For, if the same speeches be not in any other, yet there are speeches lyke them, whereby they may be vnderstood. Or, if not in others: yet in S. Paule himselfe, who lightneth so his owne speeches. Or, if not in him: yet conferre them with the drift and circumstances of the text; the course of thinges and wordes will open what is meant by them. And so alleage what place of scripture you list, the darkest that you can: let a man expound it after our rules, and it will neuer leade him into heresie. For either it hath plaine places to expound it, and being expounded according vnto them, it is farre from heresie:
These be thy Gods, ô Israel, which brought thee out of the land of Egipt: it will moue manye to daunse for ioy about it, in as holy sort, as the golden calfe did
sonne of a Pharise too. Yet, the duetie and loue which Paule did owe and beare to his father and master, should neuer haue excused him before the iudgement-seat of God, if he had cleaued still to the Pharises sect, when God did lighten him with greater knowledge of his truth.
Hos. 2.2
.
*Vulgat. edit. lat. Judicate matrem vestrā ▪ judicate.Vulgat. edit. lat. Iudicate matrem vestrā ▪ iudicate.
he went and tooke possession of Barbarie by the way. An English man might say, to comfort good subiectes, that (by Gods grace) these Italians and the Marques, if they had arriued, might haue bene discomfited by the Quéenes army:
