An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
AS that famous Surname of Christians increased first ina Antioch, sob Doctors, that is, very deep Divines, and Prophets, that is, most famous Preachers, first flourished there. Our Lord himself provided for his flock in time to come, such a sort ofc Scribes and wise men, as were experienced in the kingdom of God, bringing forth both old & new things, that is, having God still both in Christ and Moses, in the new and old Testament. How mischievous an act is it to expel with rebuke these men, which were given us by God for a special benefit? The Adversary hath* expelled them. For what cause? for that if they had stood upright, he of necessity had fallen down. So soon, as I throughly perceived that, without any more ado, I desired to make, not that flourishing fight which the common sort of people use, when they contend one with another in the open streets, but that severe and sharp combat, by which we buckle▪ one with another in your Philosophy schools, foot by foot, & man by man, close joined together. If we may once come to the Fathers, the field is fought, & the wager won, on our side. For they are all ours, assure as Gregory the 13. is a most loving Father to all the Churches children. For tod omit divers places, which here and there dispersed, being gathered together out of the ancient writings of the Fathers, do very fitly and plainly fortify our faith: we have their whole books, which of set purpose do expressly and copiously paint out lively that self same Evangelical religion which we maintain.
What orders of heavenly powers, what sacrifices, what solemn rites, doth that two-fold Hierarchy of the Martyr S. Denis, make known unto us? That matter touched
Ignatius, so was Calvin also. Insomuch that these bench whistlers pried out certain foul blemishes and unsavoury speeches in his Epistles. In these mens conceits also S. Ireneus writ one foolish toy; and S.
AS that famous Sirname of Christians increased first ina Antioch, sob Doctors, that is, very deepe Diuines, and Prophets, that is, most famous Preachers, first flourished there. Our Lord himselfe prouided for his flocke in time to come, such a sort ofc Scribes and wise men, as were experienced in the kingdome of God, bringing forth both old & new things, that is, hauing God still both in Christ and Moses, in the new and old Testament. How mischieuous an act is it to expel with rebuke these men, which were giuen vs by God for a speciall benefit? The Aduersarie hath* expelled them. For what cause? for that if they had stood vpright, he of necessity had fallen downe. So soone, as I throughlie perceiued that, without any more adoo, I desired to make, not that flourishing fight which the common sort of people vse, when they contend one with another in the open streetes, but that seuere and sharpe combate, by which we buckle▪ one with another in your Philosophy schooles, foot by foot, & man by man, close ioyned together. If we may once come to the Fathers, the field is fought, & the wager wonne, on our side. For they are all ours, assure as Gregory the 13. is a most louing Father to all the Churches children. For tod omit diuers places, which here and there dispersed, being gathered together out of the auncient writings of the Fathers, do very fitly and plainelie fortifie our faith: we haue their whole bookes, which of set purpose do expresly and copiously paint out liuely that selfe same Euangelicall religion which wee maintaine. ⟨p. 117⟩What orders of heauenly powers, what sacrifices, what solomne rites, doth that two-fold Hierarchy of the Martyr S. Denys, make knowne vnto vs? That matter touchedc Luther so nigh the quicke, that he affirmed this blessed mans writings to be most like to dreames and most pernicious.f Caussaeus an obscure vpstart in Fraunce, following the steppes of his Father Luther, blushed not to tearme this Apostle S.* Denys borne in a noble countrie, an old dotard.g The Magdeburgeans which lately set forth the Ecclesiasticall historie in Centuries, were greatly grieued at S. *Ignatius, so was Caluin also. Insomuch that these bench whistlers pried out certaine foule blemeshes and vnsauorie speeches in his Epistles. In these mens conceits also S. Ireneus writ one foolish toy; and S.
*This is false, for we never hissed out any learned scribe.This is false, for we neuer hissed out any learned scribe.
dS. Dion. Areo pag. de quo vide Adon Treu. in Martyrel. Adon. Turon. Sing. Suid. Metap.S. Dion. Areo pag. de quo vide Adon Treu. in Martyrel. Adon. Turon. Syng. Suid. Metap.
cComment. in 1.13 17. Deut. Item in cap. •ab.Coment. in 1.13 17. Deut. Item in cap. •ab.
fDial. 5. & 11.
*This Denis is counterfeice and forged.This Denys is counterfeice and forged.
Clement, who was author of the book called Stromatum, yielded out of his works cockle and dregs. And the residueh of the Fathers of this age, which were in very deed* Apostolic men, left unto their posterity blasphemous and monstrous doctrine. Ini Tertullian they greedily catch at that fault, which being told thereof by us, they with us also detest. But let them call to mind, the book which he writ de Praescriptionibus, wherewith the heretics of our time had so sound a blow, was never hither to reprehended by the Church. How sufficiently and evidently hath* Hippolytus kBishop of Portua foreshowed the reign of Luther's heresies, which was a strong pillar▪ in Antichrists building? And for that cause they call him a most childish scribble, & a masker. Thatl critical French man Caussaeus, and them Magdeburgeans do call S. Cyprian (who was the flower and honour of Africa) a block head, a man cast out of Gods sight a depraver of the true doctrine of Penance: why, what hath he done? he hath writ for sooth one book of Virginity, and another of those that are Relapsed, and certain treatises of the unity of the Church, yea & such Epistles also unto Cornelius Bishop of Rome, that except this blessed Martyr be disgraced, Peter Martyr ⟨p. 118⟩the Vermillian, and all his confeder a•s, must be taken for worse then adulterous & Church-robbers. And lest I should stand too long upon particularities, aft the Fathers of that age aren generally* condemned, as men that have corrupted wonderfully, the sincere doctrine of Penance. Ho• I pray you? the Austerity for sooth of theo Canons which at that time was used, doth highly displease this plausible sect, which are fitter for Chambers then for Churches, and is accustomed to tickle sensual ears, and to so cushions to every elbow: wherein, I say, wherein hath the next age offended? forsooth S. Chrysostom and other Fathers of that time have foully darkened justification by faith only S. Gregory Nazianzen, whom ancient writers for honour sake, have Surnamed Theologus. 1. the Divine, by Caussaeus judgement, was but aq brabbler and knew not what to say: S. Ambrose was bewitched of an evil spirit. S. rHierome is as* deeply damned in hell, as the devil himself, because he was injurious to the Apostle, a blasphemer, a naughty man, a wicked fellow.
Clement, who was author of the booke called Stromatum, yeelded out of his works cockle and dregges. And the residueh of the Fathers of this age, which were in very deed* Apostolike men, left vnto their posteritie blasphemous and monstrous doctrine. Ini Tertullian they greedily catch at that fault, which being told therof by vs, they with vs also detest. But let them call to mind, the booke which he writ de Praescriptionibus, wherwith the heretikes of our time had so sound a blow, was neuer hither to reprehended by the Church. How sufficientlie and euidently hath* Hyppolitus kBishop of Portua foreshewed the raigne of Luthers heresies, which was a strong pillar▪ in Antichrists building? And for that cause they call him amost childish scrible, & a masker. Thatl criticall French man Caussaeus, and them Magdeburgeans do call S. Cyprian (who was the flower and honor of Africke) a blocke head, a man cast out of Gods sight a deprauer of the true doctrine of Penance: why, what hath he done? he hath writ for sooth one booke of Virginity, and another of those that are Relapsed, and certaine treatises of the vnity of the Church, yea & such Epistles also vnto Cornelius Bishop of Rome, that except this blessed Martyr be disgraced, Peter Martyr ⟨p. 118⟩the Vermillian, and all his confeder a•s, must bee taken for worse then adulternous & Church-robbers. And lest I should stand too long vpon particularties, aft the Fathers of that age aren generally* condemned, as men that haue corrupted wonderfully, the sincere doctrine of Penance. Ho• I pray you? the Austerity for sooth of the
*They were Apostolic men, yet they did not commit to writing all the things the Apostles did.They were Apostolike men, yet they did not commit to writing all the things the Apostles did.
iLib. de Prascript. contra Ha•.
*This Hippolytus is counterfeit.This Hyppolitus is counterfeite.
Gregory Massonius esteemeth more of one Calvin, then of an hundred Augustines, a hundred is but a few.s Martin Luther careth not a button, if there were against him a thousand Augustines, a thousand Cyprians, a thousand Churches. I think it will be to no purpose to wade any further in this matter, for who may marvel, if they that thus rail against these worthy men, have also been saucy against Optatus, Athanasius, Hilarius, both Cyrils, Epiphanius, Basil, Vincentius, Fulgentius, Leo, and Gregory the Roman? And yet if there may be any just defence of an unjust cause, I do not deny but the Fathers have, wheresoever you read in their works, such matter, as may cause the Adversary to take pepper in the nose, so long as they follow their own humours. For they that cannot away with prescript days of abstinence, how is it likely that they can abide S, Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Leo, and S. Chrysostom, who have set forth in printg⟨p. 119⟩very godly sermons, concerning Lent, and Ember days, as things usually at that time observed among Christian people. Can those men choose, which have sold their souls for riches, bodily pleasure, dainty fare, and fine apparel, but bear deadly hatred to S. Basil, S. Chrysostom, S. Hierome, and S. Augustine, whose excellent books of the order, rule, and virtuous life of* Monks, are usually in every mans band? May they that have intruded servile will into man, that have cut off all Christian funerals, that have set on fire the relics of Saints, continue friendship with S. Augustine? who hath penned three whole books of mans* freewill,t one book of care to be taken for the dead, one long chapter of that his noble work De civitat. Dei, concerning miracles wrought at the Churches, Chapels, and sepulchres of holy Martyrs, and certain Sermons of the same matter. Can such as measure faith by their own captiousness, refrain from anger towards S. Augustine, of whose penning there is extant a notableo Epistle against Manichee, wherein he confesseth, that for his faith he will cleave unto* Antiquity, unity, continual succession, and to the Church, which by prescription alone challengeth among so many heresies, the title of Catholic?u Optatus *Bishop of Miletan confuteth such as took part with Donatus, by the Catholic community. Their wickedness he accuseth by the decree of the Pope Melchiades;
Gregorie Massonius esteemeth more of one Caluin, then of an hundred Augustines, a hundred is but a few.s Martin Luther careth not a button, if there were against him a thousād Augustines, a thousand Cyprians, a thousand Churches. I thinke it will be to no purpose to wade any further in this matter, for who may maruell, if they that thus raile against these worthy men, haue also been saucy against Optatus, Athanasius, Hilarius, both Cyrils, Epiphanius, Basill, Vincentius, Fulgentius, Leo, and Gregorie the Romane? And yet if there may be any iust defence of an vniust cause, I do not deny but the Fathers haue, wheresoeuer you reade in their workes, such matter, as may cause the Aduersarie to take pepper in the nose, so long as they follow their owne humours. For they that cannot away with prescript daies of abstinence, how is it likely that they can abide S, Basill, S. Gregorie Nazianzene, S. Leo, and S. Chrysostome, who haue set forth in printg⟨p. 119⟩very godly sermons, concerning Lent, and Ember daies, as things vsually at that time obserued among Christian people. Can those men chuse, which haue sold their soules for riches, bodily pleasure, daintie fare, and fine apparrell, but beare deadly hatred to S. Basill, S. Chrysostome, S. Hierome, and S. Augustine, whose excellent bookes of the order, rule, and vertuous life of* Monkes, are vsually in euery mans band? May they that haue intruded seruill will into man, that haue cut off all Christian funerals, that haue set on fire the reliques of Saints, continue friendship with S. Augustine? who hath penned three whole bookes of mans* freewill,t one booke of care to be taken for the dead, one long chapter of that his noble worke De ciuitat. Dei, concerning miracles wrought at the Churches, Chappels, and sepulchers of holy Martyrs, and certaine Sermons of the same matter. Can such as measure faith by their own captiousnes, refraine from anger towards S. Augustine, of whose penning there is extant a notableo Epistle against Manachie, wherein he confesseth, that for his faith he will cleaue vnto*
he reprovethx their heresy by the succession of the Bishops of Rome. He displayeth theiry madness, by their defiling both of the blessed Eucharist, and also of the holy oil. He abhorreth theirz sacrilege, in breaking down of holy Altars, whereupon Christs body is laid, and also in polluting of the Chalices, which contained Christs blood: I would gladly know what they think of Optatus, who is commended by S. aAugustine as a worthy and Catholic Bishop not inferior to S. Ambrose, and S. Cyprian, and whom S. bFulgentius also recordeth to have been an holy man and faithful Interpreter ⟨p. 120⟩of S. Paul, not unlike unto S. Augustine, and S. Ambrose. They read S. Athanasius Creed in their Churches: Do they for all that bear him any good will, who hath highly commended as an ancient writer in an exact book, S. Antony that hermit of Egypt, and also hath humbly appealed, with the Council of* Alexandria unto the Sea Apostolic of S. Peter? How often doth S. Prudentius in his Hymns pray unto the blessed Martyrs? what Hymns doth he indict in their praise? how often doth he worship the King of Martyrs at their ashes and bones? will they allow of this man? S. Hierome in the defence of Relics, and honour of Saints writeth against Vigillantius, and for the preeminence of virginity against Jovinian: will they tolerate this? An high solemn feast was kept byc S. Ambrose in the honour of his Patrons Geruasius and Protasius, to the great reproach of the Arians; which act the holyd Fathers have highly commended, and God himself adorned with many miracles: will they be friends with S. Ambrose? cS. Gregory the great, that Apostle of* ours, is flat on our side and for that title is hated of our Adversaries, whom Calvin in his fury doth deny to be brought up in thef school of the holy Ghost, because he called holy Images the books of unlearned people. A whole day would not be enough for me to reckon all the Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, Orations, Treatises, and disputations of the old Fathers, wherein of set purpose both gravely and eloquently, they have confirmed our Catholic doctrine. So long as these books of these Fathers shall be sold at the Stationers shop, in vain are the havens and sea coasts watched so narrowly; to no purpose, are houses, coffers, and chests straightly searched; to no end, are penal proclamations set upon so many gates.
he reprouethx their heresie by the succession of the Bishops of Rome. He displaieth theiry madnes, by their dafiling both of the blessed Eucharist, and also of the holy oyle. He abhorreth theirz sacriledge, in breaking downe of holy Altars, whereupon Christs body is laid, and also in polluting of the Chalices, which contained Christs blood: I would gladly know what they thinke of Optatus, who is commended by S. aAugustine as a worthy and Catholike Bishop not inferiour to S. Ambrose, and S. Cyprian, and whom S. bFulgentius also recordeth to haue been an holy man and faithfull Interpretor ⟨p. 120⟩of S. Paul, not vnlike vnto S. Augustine, and S. Ambrose. They reade S. Athanasius Creed in their Churches: Do they for all that beare him any good will, who hath highly commended as an auncient writer in an exact booke, S. Antony that hermite of Aegypt, and also hath humbly appealed, with the Councell of* Alexandria vnto the Sea Apostolike of S. Peter? How often doth S. Prudentius in his Hymnes pray vnto the blessed Martyrs? what Hymnes doth he endite in their praise? how often doth he worship the King of Martyrs at their ashes and bones? will they allow of this man? S. Hierome in the defence of Reliques, and honor of Saints writeth against Vigillantius, and for the preheminence of virginitie against Iouinian: will they tolerate this? An high solemne feast was kept byc S. Ambrose in the honor of his Patrones Geruasius and Protasius, to the great reproach of the Arrians; which act the holyd Fathers haue highly commended, and God himselfe adorned with many miracles: will they be friends with S. Ambrose? cS. Gregorie the great, that Apostle of* ours, is flat on our side and for that title is hated of our Aduersaries, whom Caluin in his fury doth deny to be brought vp in the
xLib. 2.
yLib. 3.
zLib. 6.
aAug. lib. 1 cont. Parmen. De Unit. ca. 16. & lib. 3 de Doct. Christ. c. 40.Aug. lib. 1 cont. Parmen. De Vnit. ca. 16. & lib. 3 de Doct. Christ. c. 40.
bFulgent. li. 2. ad Monim. Vide epist. Synod. Alex. ad Feli. 2.
*A counterfeit Epistle.
cVide Epist. de Ambros. ad Epist. It all. From. 3. Sil•• & tiusdem Amb. Epist. 85. Item Serm. 91.Vide Epist. de Ambros. ad Epist. It al. Fom. 3. Sil•• & tiusdem Amb. Epist. 85. Item Serm. 91.
dAugust. lib. 22. de civie. Dei. cap. 1.August. lib. 22. de ciuie. Dei. cap. 1.
cGreg•r. Tur. lib. de gloria Mar. cap. 46. Metaphrast.
*Gregory the great was neither our Apostle, nor an Apostle at all.Gregorie the great was neither our Apostle, nor an Apostle at all.
fJust. lib. 1. cap. 11. n. 5.Iust. lib. 1. cap. 11. n. 5.
For none of our late writers, neither Harding, nor Sanders, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more vehemently inveigh against these their new found dreams, then those Fathers do, whom I have named: which things when I well considered, ⟨p. 121⟩my courage began to rise, & I had a desire to fight, in which conflict, on which side soever the adversary shall start, except he yield due honour unto God, he shall have the foil: if he allow of the Fathers, he is caught; if he disallow of them, he is no body. Thus it fell out when I was: a young student at Oxford.* John Jewel the captain of English Calvinists, challenged in most bragging sort all Catholics at Pauls Cross in London, urging and alleging like an hypocrite, all the Fathers that ever flourished within six hundred years after Christ. Certain worthy men, which then for religion lived as banished men, in the University of Lonan, though through the iniquity of the time, they lived in great distress, yet answered his challenge. That subtlety, folly, impudency, and sauciness of Jewel, which the fore said writers have luckily discovered, hath done so much good to the common sort of people in England, that within my remembrance I dare boldly say, there scarcely happened any one thing more profitable, to the afflicted English Church then this. Proclamations forth▪ with were set on every gate, that no such* books might lawfully be read or kept in their houses, whereas Jewels exclamations at Pauls Cross, did almost extort the same out of the writers hands. But they that came to the scanning of this matter found that the Fathers were all Catholic, that is, on our side. Neither didg Laurence Humphrey conceal this blow given him and his fellows, who when he had highly extolled Jewel otherwise, noted yet want of* discretion in him for this one thing, that he for his part had allowed the judgements of the Fathers in matters of controversy, which when the said Laurence Humphrey without any circumstances plainly protesteth that he neither hath, nor will have any thing to do. I did once also familiarly request Toby Matthew, who new for preaching beareth the bell, whom for good learning sake and likely seeds of other good virtues, I dearly loved, that he would plainly tell me, whether he that so diligently read the Fathers, ⟨p. 122⟩could be of that side, whereunto he laboured to allure his audience.
For none of our late writers, neither Harding, nor Sanders, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more vehemently inueigh against these their new found dreames, then those Fathers do, whom I haue named: which things when I well considered, ⟨p. 121⟩my courage began to rise, & I had a desire to fight, in which conflict, on which side soeuer the aduer sarie shall start, except he yeeld due honor vnto God, he shall haue the foyle: if he allow of the Fathers, he is caught; if he disallow of them, he is no body. Thus it fell out when I was: a yong student at Oxford.* Iohn Iewel the captaine of English Caluinists, challenged in most bragging sort all Catholikes at Paules Crosse in London, vrging and alledging like an hypocrite, all the Fathers that euer flourished within sixe hundred yeares after Christ. Certeine worthy men, which then for religion liued as banished men, in the Ʋniuersity of Lonan, thoug through the iniquity of the time, they liued in great distresse, yet answered his challenge. That subtiltie, follie, impudency, and saucines of Iewel, which the fore said writers haue luckily discouered, hath done so much good to the cōmon sort of people in England, that within my remembrance I dare boldly say, there scarcely hapned any one thing more profitable, to the afflicted English Church then this. Proclamatiōs forth▪ with were set on euery gate, that no such* bookes might lawfullie be read or kept in their houses, whereas Iewels exclamations at Paules Crosse, did almost extort the same out of the writers hands. But they that came to the scanning of this matter found that the Fathers were all Catholike, that is, on our side. Neither didg Laurence Humphrey conceale this blow giuen him and his fellowes, who when he had highly extolled Iewel otherwise, noted yet want of* discretion in him for this one thing, that hee for his part had allowed the iudgements of the Fathers in matters of controuersie, which when the said Laurence Humphrey without any circumstances plainly protesteth that he neither hath, nor will haue any thing to doe. I did once also familiarly request Toby Mathew, who new for preaching beareth the bell, whom for good learning sake and likely seedes of other good vertues, I dearely loued, that he would plainly tell me, whether he that so diligently read the Fathers, ⟨p. 122⟩
*This word Bishop Jewel did never eat, neither will we ever renounce.This word Bishop Iewel did neuer eat, neither wil we euer renoūce.
*But Bishop Jewel published the whole book of the Adversaries that all might read them.But Bishop Iewel published the whole booke of the Aduersaries that all might reade them.
gLib. de vita Juclii.Lib. de vita Iuclii.
*This is false, he never upbraided him with any impudency.This is false, he neuer vpbraided him with any impudencie.
He replied no, if he both read them, and withal believed them.* This his answer is very true, and I persuade my self, that neither he now, nor Matthew Hutton, who as I hear is a famous man, and bent much to study the Fathers, nor any other of the Adversaries, which do the like, do otherwise think. Wherefore, yet I might come surely to this combat, to encounter with such, who as though they had a Wolfe by the ears, are enforced to discredit their cause for ever, whether they reject the Fathers or stand to their judgement. For by doing the one, they truss up their trinkets to fly away, and by doing the other, they are straightways strangled.
He replied no, if he both read them, and withall beleeued them.* This his answere is very true, and I perswade my selfe, that neither hee now, nor Mathew Hutton, who as I heare is a famous man, and bent much to study the Fathers, nor any other of the Aduersaries, which do the like, do otherwise thinke. Wherefore, yet I might come surely to this combate, to encounter with such, who as though they had a Wolfe by the eares, are inforced to discredit their cause for euer, whether they reiect the Fathers or stand to their iudgement. For by doing the one, they trusse vp their trinckets to flie away, and by doing the other, they are streightwaies strangled.
*This is most false, they who give most to the Fathers are most dissenting from you.This is most false, they who giue most to the Fathers are most dissenting from you.
Now Campian calleth upon the Fathers, from whom, because he presumes of a firm defence, he earnestly desireth a conflict, not like those light skirmishes of men in the streets, but a serious and constant disputation, such as Philosophers use: Campian (you see) hath a better mind to converse with Philosophers, than with Divines: for being furnished with Rhetoric and Logic, and having spent most of his time in often declaiming and in inventing and answering sophistical captions, he doubteth not of a famous victory, if Philosophers were Judges. But (Campian) these matters are not to be disputed among Philosophers, which are otherwhiles ⟨p. 123⟩deceived with probability and appearance of truth, following that opinion which themselves judge most agreeable to reason. This question in hand, must be discussed in the assembly of most grave and learned Divines, whom no juggling of words, no subtlety in disputation, no wit, no cunning, no youthful insolent boldness, in quarrelling lying, or foolish vaunting, can once move, much less remove them from the truth they are persuaded of. Here can you not have liberty to brag of your counterfeit devises, Philosophy may not sit as judge in these controversies, neither will those things, wherein you chiefly trust, be here of any authority: you must leave your own erroneous and endless walks, and be drawn perforce into the compass and limits of Scripture and true divinity. For Christ and his Apostles (as that discreet man said in the Nicene Council) commended not Logic and vain subtlety unto us,1 but a naked opinion, consisting in faith and good works: And this simple and sincere word of truth, will easily dissolve all your cavils, will dispel your artificial mists, and will hold you fast as in a net, so that the more you struggle to get out, the faster and straiter are you tied. But you haste to the Fathers, and say, If we may once come unto them, the war is ended. Now I must tell you, you make too much hast, and overslip many things. Is the battle ended, say you? Why, who had the victory? This is verily childish and too ridiculous, but yet usual in your combats, to triumph before the victory. But I would hear how you have finished the war, with such admirable expedition: For (say you) the Fathers are as surely ours, as Gregory the thirteenth himself;
NOw Campian calleth vpon the Fathers, from whom, because hee presumes of a firme defence, he earnestly desireth a conflict, not like those light skirmishes of men in the streets, but a serious and constant disputation, such as Philosophers vse: Campian (you see) hath a better minde to conuerse with Philosophers, than with Diuines: for being furnished with Rhetoricke and Logicke, and hauing spent most of his time in often declaiming and in inuenting and answering sophisticall captions, he doubteth not of a famous victorie, if Philosophers were Iudges. But (Campian) these matters are not to be disputed among Philosophers, which are otherwhiles ⟨p. 123⟩deceiued with probabilitie and apparance of truth, following that opinion which themselues iudge most agreeable to reason. This question in hand, must be discusted in the assemblie of most graue and learned Diuines, whom no iugling of words, no subtiltie in disputation, no wit, no cunning, no youthfull insolent boldnes, in quarrelling lying, or soolish vaunting, can once moue, much lesse remoue them from the truth they are perswaded of. Here can you not haue libertie to bragge of your counterfeit deuises, Philosophie may not sit as iudge in these controuersies, neither will those things, wherein you chiefely trust, be heere of any authority: you must leaue your owne erroneous and endlesse walkes, and be drawne perforce into the compasse and limits of Scripture and true diuinitie. For Christ and his Apostles (as that discreete man said in the Nicene Councell) commended not Logicke and vaine subtiltie vnto vs,1 but a naked opinion, consisting in faith and good works: And this simple and sincere word of truth, will easilie dissolue all your cauils, will dispell your artificiall mists, and will hold you fast as in a net, so that the more you struggle to get out, the faster and straiter are you tied. But you haste to the Fathers, and say, If we may once come vnto them, the warre is ended. Now I must tell you, you make too much hast, and ouerslippe many things. Is the battaile ended, say you? Why, who had the victorie? This is verily childish and too ridiculous, but yet vsuall in your combats, to triumphe before the victorie. But I would heare how you haue finished the warre, with such admirable expedition: For (say you) the Fathers are as surely ours, as Gregorie the thirteenth himselfe;
the most loving Father of the Children of the Church. Give me leave to answer you in your own words: My friends who are present, can you forbear laughing? What could be affirmed, ⟨p. 124⟩more weakly, fondly, or absurdly? Call you him, the most loving Father of the Churches Children, whom we knew to be their furious and mortal adversaries? And conclude you that other to be as true as this? I grant aswell the one as the other, for both are most false. What think you? have you not got a famous victory? And thus (Campian) you use to make an end of battles, and put to flight great armies of adversaries. What remaineth, but that as Conqueror, you be crowned with a Laurel garland, and carried with triumph into the Vatican, and solace your self many years with your dear Father Gregory, that good old man? But now (Campian) proceed and prosecute the victory, which you have gotten. We have (say you) whole volumes of the Fathers, which do fully, distinctly, and purposely declare that Evangelical religion, which we now defend. Now you muster and reckon up your armies; whereby you procured this victory, look well to them, you were best, and lay sure hold of them, lest they revolt, and forsaking you, come to our Tents: for you force them to be with you against their wills. So that in the most dangerous and important fight, they fly unto us with speed, and do most sharply assault and batter you. But let us consider your volumes: The two fold Hierarchy of Denis the Martyr, what orders doth it teach us, what sacrifices, what rites? Assuredly it teacheth us novelties, unheard of in the Scriptures; we therefore leave both them and their author wholly unto you. For, though this Denis, whosoever he were, was both for time ancient, and in his stile of writing, not unlearned; yet, that he should be the Ar••pagit•, whom Paul at Athens converted to the Faith, is altogether incredible. If you ask me a reason of this my opinion, I pray you read diligently and considerately that which Laurentius Valla, and Erasmus of Rotterdam ⟨p. 125⟩have written of him. Both of them persuade, by no feigned surmises, but by very weighty reasons, and such as (I ween) you will hardly gainsay, that this Denis cannot be the party you report him to be. You then have no reason to be angry with Luther or Caussaeus if they handled thisa counterfeit somewhat roughly, and censured him freely.
the most louing Father of the Children of the Church. Giue me leaue to answere you in your owne words: My friends who are present, can you forbeare langhing? What could be affirmed, ⟨p. 124⟩more weakely, fondly, or absurdly? Call you him, the most louing Father of the Churches Children, whom wee knew to bee their furious and mortall aduersaries? And conclude you that other to bee as true as this? I graunt aswell the one as the other, for both are most false. What thinke you? haue you not got a famous victorie? And thus (Campian) you vse to make an end of battailes, and put to flight great armies of aduersaries. What remaineth, but that as Conqueror, you bee crowned with a Laurell garland, and carried with triumph into the Vatican, and solace your self many yeeres with your deare Father Gregorie, that good old man? But now (Campian) proceed and prosecute the victorie, which you haue gotten. We haue (say you) whole volumes of the Fathers, which doe fully, distincty, and purposely declare that Euangelicall religion, which we now defend. Now you muster and reckon vp your armies; whereby you procured this victorie, looke well to them, you were best, and lay sure hold of them, lest they reuolt, and forsaking you, come to our Tents: for you force them to bee with you against their wils. So that in the most dangerous and important fight, they flie vnto vs with speede, and doe most sharply assault and batter you. But let vs consider your volumes: The two fold Hierarchie of Denys the Martyr, what orders doth it teach vs, what sacrifices, what rites? Assuredly it teacheth vs nouelties, vnheard of in the Scriptures; we therefore leaue both them and their author wholy vnto you. For, though this Denys, whosoeuer he were, was both for time ancient, and in his stile of writing, not vnlearned; yet, that he should be the Ar••pagit•, whom Paul at Athens conuerted to the Faith, is altogether incredible. If you aske me a reason of this my opinion, I pray you reade diligently and consideratly that which Laurentius Valla, and Eras•us of Roteradam ⟨p. 125⟩haue written of him. Both of them perswade, by no fained surmises, but by very weightie reasons, and such as (I weene) you will hardly gainsay, that this Denys cannot be the partie you report him to be. You then haue no reason to be angrie with Luther or Caussaeus if they handled thisa counterfeit somewhat roughly, and censured him freely.
aDVR. You say that Deny• is counterfeit, but prove it by no reason. But Origen, Nazianzene, Zoph•ine Archbishop of Jerusalem, Damascene, Nicephorus, Euthemius, Dionysius Archbishop of Alexandria, acknowledge his books & him to have been a disciple of S. Paul. WHIT. pag. 357. But I say that Antiquity was altogether ignorant of his books; which could not be if they bad been written of Denis Arc•pagita: for Eus•biu: diligently searching out, and setting down all ancient writers, and all th••r books and Epistles which they writ, mentioneth not •im, nor his works, neither do any […] the Greek and Latin Fathers speak of him. But who can think that the books of a disciple of Saint Paul should be unknown, and not highly esteemed of all in those days? Besides he citeth the Epistles of Ignatius, as also the Gospel and Revelation of S. John, which must needs be written divers years after the death of Denis Ar••pagita: he writeth▪ an Epistle to Polycarpus and calleth him a ruler of the Church, when at his detah Polycarpus must needs be very young▪ for Denis was slain Anno Dom 96. Polycarp died 1•6. being but 86. years of age; he calleth Timothy his sonne, who was converted before ever that Ar••pagita was: he acknowledgeth that his masters had their learning from the Apostles, doth he not thereby deny himself S. Pauls scholar? finally the Church Hierarchy and all the names of the officers reckoned up by him, were never known in the Apostles time▪ For your authors they are all new and late writers, but two. The first Origen, whom Erasmus denieth Annot. in Act. 17. once to have made motion of him in all his writings: neither ever doth Nazianzene.DVR. You say that Deny• is counterfeite, but proue it by no reason. But Origen, Nazianzene, Zoph•ine Archbishop of Hierusalem, Damascene, Nicephorus, Euthemius, Dionysius Archbishop of Alexa•dria, acknowledge his bookes & him to haue been a disciple of S. Paul. WHIT. pag. 357. But I say that Antiquitie was altogether ignorant of his bookes; which could not be if they bad been written of Denys Arcpagita: for Eusbiu: diligently searching out, and setting downe all auncient writers, and all thr bookes and Epistles which they writ, mentioneth not im, nor his workes, neither doe any the Greeke and Latin Fathers speake of him. But who can thinke that the bookes of a disciple of Saint Paul should be vnknowne, and not highly esteemed of all in those daies? Besides he citeth the Epistles of Igtius, as also the Gospell and Reuelation of S. Iohn, which must needs be written diuers yeares after the death of Denys Arpagita: hee writeth an Epistle to Polycarpus and calleth him a ruler of the Church, when at his detah Polycarpus must needs be very yong for Denys was slaine Anno Dom 96. Polycarpe died 16. being but 86. yeares of age; he calleth Timothy his sonne, who was conuerted before euer that Arpagita vvas: he acknowledgeth that his maisters had their learning from the Apostles, doth he not thereby deny himselfe S. Paules scholer? finally the Church Hierarchie and all the names of the officers reckoned vp by him, were neuer knowne in the Apostles time For your authors they are all new and late writers, but two. The first Origen, whom Erasmus denieth Annot. in
Where you say Calvin and the writers of the Centuries were offended with Ignatius, 1I confess they had just cause of offence. If heretics alleged him, to be a patron of a wicked and detestable opinion, Calvin might with reason and discretion reject him: how aptly and truly he was by them alleged, I cannot tell, let them look to it. Howsoever it be, the truth ought not by his authority to be borne down, whose credit is little, if any at all: you are not ignorant what the judgement of all the learned is those Epistles of Ignatius. Eusebius indeed makes mention of some of his Epistles, and Hierome of others: but now many more go under his name, which they have not ⟨p. 126⟩mentioned. Hierome balso reports a saying of his;3 and Theodoret another, which are not found in those Epistles which are carried about: what would you have more? Gratian himself favours not overmuch this your Ignatius. You see then, of how obscure, suspected and uncertain reputation are these two, which you place in the forefront of your army.
Where you say Caluin and the writers of the Centuries were offended with Ignatius, 1I confesse they had iust cause of offence. If heretikes alleaged him, to bee a patron of a wicked and detestable opinion, Caluin might with reason and discretion reiect him: how aptly and truly he was by them alleaged, I cannot tell, let them look to it. Howsoeuer it be, the truth ought not by his authoritie to be borne downe, whose credit is little, if any at all: you are not ignorant what the iudgement of all the learned is those Epistles of Ignatius. Eusebius indeed makes mention of some of his Epistles, and Hierome of others: but now many more goe vnder his name, which they haue not ⟨p. 126⟩mentioned. Hierome balso reports a saying of his;3 and Theodoret another, which are not found in those Epistles which are caried about: what would you haue more? Gratian himselfe fauours not ouermuch this your Ignatius. You see then, of how obscure, suspected and vncertaine reputation are these two, which you place in the forefront of your armie.
1Ignatius.
bDVR. If divers of those things there cited out of him be not to be found, how. followeth it that those works of his which are extant, be forged and none of his? WHIT. pag. 360. From thence verily it will follow that his works are not perfect, yea many things are found in his Epistles, which are incredible to have been taught in those days: as the strict keeping of Lent, and fasting upon the Sabbath days; yea it was but lately that these Epistles were printed and published, and so of the less credit and authority.DVR. If diuers of those things there cited out of him bee not to bee found, hovv. follovveth it that those works of his vvhich are extant, bee forged and noue of his? WHIT. pag. 360. From thence verely it will follow that his works are not perfect, yea many things are found in his Epistles, which are incredible to haue been taught in those daies: as the strict keeping of Lent, and fasting vpon the Sabbath daies; yea it was but latelie that these Epistles were printed and published, and so of the lesse credit and authority.
You are offended, that the Censors, as you call them, upbraid Irenaeus, as in some thing fantastical. We use not to speak reproachfully of Irenaus, whom we confess to have been both holy and learned: but what is this to the purpose? If Iraneus have written something foolishly, must be therefore by and by, be wholly yours? And if some where we have noted his opinion, as not true and sound, do we therefore reject all his works? Is this your manner of disputing (Campian) is this your skirmishing? are you of opinion, that never any word passed from Irenaeus unadvisedly, or which might justly be termed unreasonable? Then tellc me, Campian, 2how Christ preached only one year, yet was baptized the thirtieth year of his age, and died the fiftieth? what, shall we believe, that Christ taught only one year, and that the fortieth year? will you deny this to be a very new, strange, and almost frantic novelty? Besides that, many write Irenaeus to have been one of them, whom the Fathers call Millenaries; think you that was not a frantic opinion? And can you doubt of Clemens, whether he hath ⟨p. 127⟩sometimes sown Tares? what call you that, where he denieth, that Christ indeed did either hunger or thirst? Again, that Christ taught but one year, which he had of Irenaus? Again,3 that the Philosophers in hell expected the coming of Christ, & being taught by own mouth believed? Will you deny those to be Tares? and many of this kind are his to be found in the worthiest writers of that age. If you deny it, bring me one whom I will not convince to have erred by your own judgement. You dare not say,4 we have wronged Tertullian: But you will us to remember, that the book of Prescriptions was never taxed; which, for ought I remember, never was: though I confess that writing, which you name, is notable, in which many things are written, very divinely, against your Church.d I wonder you are not ashamed of Hippolytus; of whom Harding himself was almost ashamed.6 Think not that we are ought moved withe authors of so small credit, so lately drawn but of darkness, as they scarce yet have learned to look upon the light. For what was this Hippolytus? He writ, you say, of Antichrist. But how worthily? that foolish book of Hippolytus, which a ⟨p. 128⟩certain man, I know not who, of late days published, guesseth, that the Devil is Antichrist, and feigneth many other things:
You are offended, that the Censors, as you call them, vpbraide Irenaeus, as in some thing fantasticall. We vse not to speake reprochfully of Irenaus, whom we confesse to haue been both holy and learned: but what is this to the purpose? If Iraneus haue written something foolishly, must be therefore by and by, be wholy yours? And if some where we haue noted his opinion, as not true and sound, doe we therefore reiect all his works? Is this your manner of disputing (Campian) is this your skirmishing? are you of opinion, that neuer any word passed from Irenaeus vnaduisedly, or which might iustly be tearmed vnreasonable? Then tellc me, Campian, 2how Christ preached onely one yeare, yet was baptized the thirtieth yeare of his age, and died the fiftieth? what, shall we beleeue, that Christ taught onely one yeare, and that the fortieth yeare? will you denie this to be a very new, strange, and almost franticke noueltie? Besides that, many write Irenaeus to haue been one of them, whom the Fathers call Millenaries; thinke you that was not a franticke opinion? And can you doubt of Clemens, whether hee hath ⟨p. 127⟩sometimes sowne Tares? what call you that, where he denieth, that Christ indeed did either hunger or thirst? Againe, that Christ taught but one yeere, which he had of Irenaus? Againe,3 that the Philosophers in hel expected the comming of Christ, & being taught by owne mouth beleeued? Wil you deny those to be Tares? and many of this kind are his to be found in the worthiest writers of that age. If you denie it, bring me one whom I will not conuince to haue erred by your owne iudgement. You dare not say,4 we haue wronged Tertullian: But you will vs to remember, that the book of Prescriptions was neuer taxed; which, for ought I remember, neuer was: though I confesse that writing, which you name, is notable, in which many things are written, very diuinely, against your Church.d I wonder you are not ashamed of Hippolytus; of whom Harding himselfe was almost ashamed.6 Thinke not that we are ought moued withe authors of so small credit, so lately drawne but of darknes, as they scarse yet haue learned to looke vpon the light. For what was this Hippolytus? He writ, you say, of Antichrist. But how worthily? that foolish booke of Hippolytus, which a
cDVR. You that acknowledge, and admit nothing but the Scriptures, can by no argument confute this err•r. WHIT. p. 362. What may worse beseem a livine, then thus to speak? What think you of these places: Christ when he began to preach the Gospel was about thirty years of age? Luke 3.23. After his Baptism John maketh mention of three Pasleovers, and that in the third he was put to death? Is not the time then very plainly set down? and indeed what can be more plain and casie? Hence we may observe that the Fathers have plainly erred, where you would hardly believe any man could err.DVR. You that acknovveledge, and admit nothing but the Scriptures, can by no argument confute this err•r. WHIT. p. 362. What may worse beseeme a liuine, then thus to speake? What thinke you of these places: Christ when he began to preach the Gospell was about thirtie yeares of age? Luke 3.23. After his Baptisme Iohn maketh mention of three Pasleouers, and that in the third he was put to death? Is not the time then very plainely set downe? and indeede what can be more plaine and casie? Hence we may obserue that the Fathers haue plainely erred, where you would hardly beleeue any man could erre.
2Lib. 2. cap. 39.40.
3Clement. Stromat. lib. 3. idem lib. 1. idem. lib. 5.
4Tertul.
dDVR. But you tell us not any one particular whereby this may appear. WHIT. pag. 365. I suppose you never read this book, or else you would not make doubt of it. Is any thing more against your traditions, then that he pronounceth a curie to them that shall bring any doctrine, but the self same which the nations received from the Apostles, and they from Christ himself? And that men cannot be otherwise persuaded of the things of faith, then from the writings of faith? when he gathereth from Christ sending of his Apostles, that no Ministers are else to be receive, but such as Christ hath ordained? when whatsoever is later brought is foreign and false? when he w•••eth, that faith must be built and borne up, upon the writings of the Law and of the Prophets, the Evangelists and Apostles?DVR. But you tell vs not any one particular whereby this may appeare. WHIT. pag. 365. I suppose you neuer read this booke, or else you would not make doubt of it. Is any thing more against your traditions, then that hee pronounceth a curie to them that shall bring any doctrine, but the selfe same which the nations receiued from the Apostles, and they from Christ himselfe? And that men cannot be otherwise perswaded of the things of faith, then from the writings of faith? when he gathereth from Christ sending of his Apostles, that no Ministers are else to be receiue, but such as Christ hath ordeined? when whatsoeuer is later brought is forraine and false? when he weth, that faith must be built and borne vp, vpon the writings of the Law and of the Prophets, the Euangelists and Apostles?
which neither can be true, nor were ever esteemed for true. And yet you marvel we set him so light, whom no man regards or reads, or almost knows. I can give you good leave to reckon him for your own, and if you will, let him have a better note in your army.
which neither can be true, nor were euer esteemed for true. And yet you marueile we set him so light, whom no man regards or reads, or almost knowes. I can giue you good leaue to recken him for your owne, and if you will, let him haue a better note in your armie.
The accusation concerning Cyprian, 1is more heinous, whom all men reverence for his singular faith and excellent learning. But Caussaeus termeth him senseless and without God. They of Magdeburg, call him a corrupter of penance. Shall I be tied to take upon me, and defend every speech, which any man hath at any time uttered? This Caussaeus I never saw, nor before this ever heard of him. But in as much, as you so odiously accuse him, I suppose him to be some learned and godly man. Unto that he saith of Cyprian, I answer that which I remember I have read inf Nazianzene, viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and given to much vice, and worshipped Devils, and used the help of Devils: He was (saith Nazianzene) a worshipper of Devils, and after a disciple of Christ. 3Your unreasonableness forceth me to mention those things, which I had rather have concealed. For in the Fathers imperfections, you stick fast like a burr, and cease not to rub up the remembrance of those things, which you should do better, not once to touch, If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true, then Caussaeus might say, that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godless. For I cannot think that Caussaeus would write so of him, but in regard of those times, or that any man would conceive so injuriously, of that godly Martyr: whereas they of Magdeburg complain ⟨p. 129⟩that he corrupted the doctrine of repentance, therein they forge against him no new accusation, but rather disclose that which all men know to have been too true. Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very unseasonably and undiscreetly, and not heg alone, but all the holy Fathers of that time, were tainted with that error. For being desirous by severe laws, to limit and restrain the evil manners of men, they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist, in certain outward disciplines, which they appointed: which severe censuring of sin & sharp punishing of wickedness, might haply be borne withal: but when they thought the punishment of sin to be discharged, Gods justice satisfied, freedom from sin, and certain forgiveness with righteousness hereby to be procured; herein they diminished the power of Christs death, they attributed too much to their own inventions, and in a word depraved the doctrine of repentance:
The accusation concerning Cyprian, 1is more haynous, whom all men reuerence for his singular faith and excellent learning. But Caussaeus tearmeth him senselesse and without God. They of Magdenburge, call him a corrupter of penance. Shall I be tied to take vpon me, and defend euery speech, which any man hath at any time vttered? This Caussaeus I neuer saw, nor before this euer heard of him. But in as much, as you so odiously accuse him, I suppose him to bee some learned and godly man. Vnto that he saith of Cyprian, I answere that which I remember I haue read inf Nazianzene, viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and giuen to much vice, and worshipped Diuels, and vsed the helpe of Diuels: He was (saith Nazianzene) a worshipper of Diuels, and after a disciple of Christ. 3Your vnreasonablenes forceth me to mention those things, which I had rather haue concealed. For in the Fathers imperfections, you sticke fast like a burre, and cease not to rub vp the remembrance of those things, which you should doe better, not once to touch, If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true, then Caussaeus might say, that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godlesse. For I cannot thinke that Caussaeus would write so of him, but in regard of those times, or that any man would conceiue so iniuriously, of that godly Martyr: whereas they of Magdenburge complaine ⟨p. 129⟩that hee corrupted the doctrine of repentance, therein they forge against him no new accusation, but rather disclose that which all men know to haue been too true. Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very vnseasonably and vndiscreetly, and not heg alone, but all the holy Fathers of that time, were tainted with that error. For being desirous by seuere lawes, to limit and restraine the euill manners of men, they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist, in certaine outward disciplines, which they appointed: which seuere censuring of sinne & sharpe punishing of wickednes, might happely be borne withall: but when they thought the punishment of sinne to be discharged, Gods iustice satisfied, freedome from sinne, and certeine forgiuenes with righteousnes hereby to be procured; herein they diminished the power of Christs death, they attributed too much to their owne inuentions, and in a word depraued the doctrine of repentance:
1Cyprian.
fDVR. That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of, was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church. WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainly speaketh of the same Cyprian. for see how he describes him; He did not only govern the Church of Carthage, and all Africa, but the whole West, and almost the East, the Southern and Northern parts: how think you, is it not the same Cyprian?DVR. That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of, was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church. WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainely speaketh of the same Cyprian. for see how hee describes him; He did not only gouerne the Church of Carthage, and all Affricke, but the vvhole VVest, and almost the East, the Southerne and Northerne parts: how thinke you, is it not the same Cyprian?
3Nazian. de Cypri.
gDVR. O singular impudency! O intolerable arrogance! what, have all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any virtue any where else. but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What need all this heat? It had been your part to have showed that the Fathers who then lived, have spoken nothing unfitly of repentance, so had you confuted that I charge them with, which your hear will not cure. And what if the Fathers have thought that mens works have all their virtue and power from the merit of Christ; will it thence follow they have spoken nothing unfitly of repentance and works? As if Christ by his death had only merited that we might by our works and merits deserve eternal life; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or hay upon it.DVR. O singular impudencie! O intollerable arrogancie! what, haue all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any vertue any where else. but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What neede all this heate? It had been your part to haue shewed that the Fathers who then liued, haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance, so had you confuted that I charge them with, which your heare will not cure. And what if the Fathers haue thought that mens works haue all their vertue and power from the merit of Christ; will it thence follow they haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance and works? As if Christ by his death had onely merited that we might by our works and merits deserue eternall life; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or haie vpon it.
because our sins are cleansed and removed, by no offices or works of ours, but only by the blood and passion of Christ. And so your objection of Repentance is answered. We do not for all this deny the works of Cyprian, nor reject the books of any Father of that age, as you falsely affirm, seeing both he and they agree with us in the greatest questions: but this is the privilege of you and your fellows, that you even greedily hunt after, and pursue, whatsoever is faulty in any author, as if all the Fathers errors, served to make up the body and faith of your religion. Something, you say, Cyprian wrote to Cornelius, ⟨p. 130⟩which if we give credit unto: then Peter Martyr and his confederates, must be held for worse than adulterous & sacrilegious; but what that is, I cannot so much as conjecture. I know that Cyprian sent many letters to Cornelius, but none of them accuse us, either of adultery or sacrilege; neither can you out of those letters allege any thing to our prejudice or your advantage: but this is ever your manner, to prove nothing clearly and distinctly, but only to name the Fathers, and from their names, to raise certain roving & uncertain suspicions. That which you write of Chambers and pillows, I pass over as nothing else, but scoffing and reproachful taunts, such as is common in every varlets mouth. Now you come to the next age, and here you mention Chrysostom, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome. But to what purpose I pray you?1 for what if Luther do censure Chrysostom sharply, because by too much advancing our works and merits, he obscureth the righteousness of faith? what though Caussaeus find some thing fabulous in Nazianzene? 2htherefore are these Fathers wholly on your side? what is this else but dotage, and to speak without wit or fear? Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the devil;4 whether any ⟨p. 131⟩ever said it or no, I never knew, neither is it greatly material; the best & most righteous men, may sometimes be so far bewitched, as they do not in some things perceive the truth: and you do too openly bewray your malice, by labouring to raise an evil opinion of him, and to make us infamous for such speeches as may have a good construction, though at the first they seem odious. Certainly I have read many Papists, and heard of some, all passing shameless, and malapert;
because our sinnes are clensed and remoued, by no offices or workes of ours, but only by the blood and passion of Christ. And so your obiection of Repentance is answered. We doe not for all this deny the workes of Cyprian, nor reiect the bookes of any Father of that age, as you falsely affirme, seeing both he and they agree with vs in the greatest questions: but this is the priuiledge of you and your fellowes, that you euen greedily hunt after, and pursue, whatsoeuer is faulty in any author, as if all the Fathers errors, serued to make vp the body and faith of your religion. Something, you say, Cyprian wrote to Cornelius, ⟨p. 130⟩which if we giue credit vnto: then Peter Martyr and his cōfederats, must be held for worse thē adulterous & sacrilegious; but what that is, I cannot so much as couiecture. I know that Cyprian sent many letters to Cornelius, but none of them accuse vs, either of adultery or sacriledge; neither can you out of those letters alleadge any thing to our preiudice or your aduantage: but this is euer your manner, to proue nothing clearely and distinctly, but only to name the Fathers, and from their names, to raise certaine rouing & vncertaine suspitions. That which you write of Chambers and pillowes, I passe ouer as nothing else, but scoffing and reproachfull taunts, such as is common in euery varlets mouth. Now you come to the next age, and heere you mention Chrysostome, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome. But to what purpose I pray you?1 for what if Luther do censure Chrysostome sharply, because by too much aduauncing our works and merits, he obscureth the righteousnes of faith? what though Caussaeus find some thing fabulous in Nazianzene? 2htherefore are these Fathers wholie on your side? what is this else but dotage, and to speake without witte or feare? Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the diuell;4 whether any ⟨p. 131⟩euer said it or no, I neuer knew, neither is it greatly materiall; the best & most righteous men, may sometimes be so farre bewitched, as they doe not in some things perceiue the truth: and you doe too openly bewray your malice, by labouring to raise an euill opinion of him, and to make vs infamous for such speeches as may haue a good construction, though at the first they seeme odious. Certeinly I haue read many Papists, and heard of some, all passing shamelesse, and malepere;
1Chrysostom.
2Nazian.
hDVR. You freely grant that Chrysostom, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome are on Campians side: and yet you pleasantly demand are these Fathers wholly yours? we, who are then true sons, do not challenge them as half Fathers, but wholly our Fathers. WHIT. pag. 370. When did I ever grant Campian so much? I should certainly do the Fathers great injury, if I should adjudge them for Campian, who are so far different from him. And for your kindred with them; it is but as the Jews were Abrahams children: for if you were the children of the Fathers, you would hold the faith of the Fathers. For the Scribes and Pharisees were not the children of Moses, because they sate in Moses chair. Neither are they the children of the Saints, who hold the places of the Saints; as Hierome. Neither have they the inheritance of Peter, which have not the faith of Peter; as Ambrose: neither ought faith to be tried by persons, but persons by saith, as Tertullian hath written. We verily love and duly reverence the Fathers, yet we acknowledge but one Father in heaven, and one teacher, which is Christ. And if you acknowledge them wholly your Fathers, why do you forsake many of their opinions?DVR. You freely graunt that Chrysostome, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome are on Campians side: and yet you pleasantly demaund are these Fathers wholy yours? we, who are then true sonnes, doe not challenge them as halfe Fathers, but wholy our Fathers. WHIT. pag. 370. When did I euer grant Campian so much? I should certeinly doe the Fathers great iniury, if I should adiudge them for Campian, who are so farre different from him. And for your kindred with them; it is but as the Iewes were Abrahams children: for if you were the children of the Fathers, you would hold the faith of the Fathers. For the Scribes and Pharisies were not the children of Moses, because they sate in Moses chaire. Neither are they the children of the Saints, who hold the places of the Saints; as Hierome. Neither haue they the inheritance of Peter, which haue not the faith of Peter; as Ambrose: neither ought faith to be tried by persons, but persons by saith, as Tertullian hath written. We verily loue and duly reuerence the Fathers, yet wee acknowledge but one Father in heauen, and one teacher, which is Christ. And if you acknowledge them wholy your Fathers, why doe you forsake many of their opinions?
but more impudent then your self, in all my life, did I never know any. There is no end of your lying, you fear no mens censure, there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speak. Even now you set upon Beza with a fresh lye. He (you say) hath written that Hierome is as surely damned, as the devil, because he was injurious to the Apostles, a blasphemous, a wicked, and an ungodly man. That Beza affirmeth not these things, I protest and a•ow: let any man that will, see the place; if it be otherwise, let me be accounted very infamous. For as for those first words, that Hierome was damned aswell a• the devil, either they are by malicious cavilling fetched out of some other place, as all the rest are, or altogether forged, as the most. In the place alleged, there is no such thing: Concerning that he saith of Injury and Blasphemy, I will set down Beza his own words, that all men may know your impudency. Even Hierome, 1saith Beza, if it be true that Erasmus upon this place saith of him, is not only injurious to the Apostle, in that he findeth want of moderation, in this speech, wherein rather appeareth his Divine courage but also is openly blasphemous, in that even in Christ himself he hath found some sign of imperfection. Thus far Beza: the matter of his complaint, is about S. Pauls sharp answer unto the high Priest, in which Hierome, (as Erasmus testifieth) in his Dialogues against Pelagius, findeth some want of moderation, & not only ⟨p. 132⟩so, but even in Christ himself, he looketh for some imperfection of piety; which reports of Hierome, if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth, why might not Beza justly esteem him, in the one injurious to the Apostle, in the other so blasphemous against Christ? For what can be devised more unworthy the Apostle then that in his answer to the high Priest, he should show too much spleen, or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ, than that the grace, wherewith he was endued, was imperfect. But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldness, in wresting the Scriptures, wherein he hath most just cause of complaint: for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures, or they are so weak and easy of themselves, as they may be any way turned. And truly he must be very desperate, that should defend Hieromes interpretations. Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Calvin, then of a thousand Augustines:
but more impudent then your selfe, in all my life, did I neuer know any. There is no end of your lying, you feare no mens censure, there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speake. Euen now you set vpon Beza with a fresh lye. He (you say) hath written that Hierome is as surely damned, as the diuell, because he was iniurious to the Apostles, a blasphemous, a wicked, and an vngodly man. That Beza affirmeth not these things, I protest and a•ow: let any man that will, see the place; if it be otherwise, let me be accounted very infamous. For as for those first words, that Hierome was damned aswell a• the diuell, either they are by malicious cauelling fetched out of some other place, as all the rest are, or altogether forged, as the most. In the place alledged, there is no such thing: Concerning that he saith of Iniury and Blasphemy, I will set downe Beza his owne words, that all men may know your impudency. Euen Hierome, 1saith Beza, if it be true that Erasmus vpon this place saith of him, is not only iniurious to the Apostle, in that hee findeth want of moderation, in this speech, wherin rather appeareth his Diuine courage but also is openly blasphemous, in that euen in Christ himselfe he hath found some signe of imperfection. Thus far Beza: the matter of his complaint, is about S. Paules sharpe answere vnto the high Priest, in which Hierome, (as Erasmus testifieth) in his Dialogues against Pelagius, findeth some want of moderatiō, & not only ⟨p. 132⟩so, but euen in Christ himself, he looketh for some imperfection of piety; which reports of Hierome, if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth, why might not Beza iustly esteeme him, in the one iniurious to the Apostle, in the other so blasphemous against Christ? For what can bee deuised more vnworthy the Apostle then that in his answere to the high Priest, he should shew too much spleene, or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ, thē that the grace, wherewith he was indued, was imperfect. But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldnes, in wresting the Scriptures, wherein he hath most iust cause of complaint: for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures, or they are so weake and easie of themselues, as they may be any way turned. And truly he must be very desperate, that should defend Hieromes interpretations. Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Caluin, then of a thousand Augustines:
1Beza in annot. novi Testam. in Act. Apost. cap. 23.Beza in annot. noui Testam. in Act. Apost. cap. 23.
Canons which at that time was vsed, doth highly displease this plausible sect, which are fitter for Chambers then for Churches, and is accustomed to tickle sensuall eares, and to so •cushions to euery elbow: wherein, I say, wherein hath the next age offended? forsooth S. Chrysostome and other Fathers of that time haue fouly darkened iustification by faith only S. Gregory Nazianzen, whom auncient writers for honor sake, haue Sirnamed Theologus. 1. the Diuine, by Caussaeus iudgement, was but a
Bishop of Miletan confuteth such as tooke part with Donatus, by the Catholike cōmunity. Their wickednes he accuseth by the decree of the Pope Melchiades;
schoole of the holy Ghost, because hee called holi• Images the books of vnlearned people. A whole day would not be enough for me to reckon all the Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, Orations, Treatises, and disputations of the old Fathers, wherein of set purpose both grauely and eloquently, they haue confirmed our Catholike doctrine. So long as these bookes of these Fathers shall be sold at the Stationers shop, in vaine are the hauens and sea coasts watched so narrowly; to no purpose, are houses, coffers, and chests straightly searched; to no end, are penall proclamations set vpon so many gates.
could be of that side, whereunto he laboured to allure his audience.
. once to haue made m•otion of him in all his writings: neither euer doth Nazianzene.
⟨p. 128⟩
certaine man, I know not who, of late daies published, gesseth, that the Diuell is Antichrist, and faineth many other things:
•••
6Hippolyt.
eDVR. Why do you reject this book of Hippolyte as counterfeit? Hierome affirmeth, that he was a Bishop, and hath written many Commentaries upon the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 367. Will it therefore follow that this book is not counterfeit? nay it is the rather forged, because Hierom doth not number it amongst his books. Hippolytus was a very worthy man, of whom Eusebius. Hierom, Theodoret, Nicephorus have made very honourable mention. But this book is childish in the beginning, and in the whole altogether unanswerable to his eloquence and judgement.DVR. VVhy do you reiect this booke of Hippolyte as counterfeite? Hierome affirmeth, that he was a Bishop, and hath written many Commentaries vpon the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 367. Will it therefore follow that this booke is not counterfeit? nay it is the rather forged, because Hierom doth not number it amongst his bookes. Hyppolitus was a very worthy man, of whom Eusebius. Hierom, Theodoret, Nicephorus haue made verie honorable mention. But this booke is childish in the beginning, and in the whole altogether vnanswerable to his eloquence and iudgement.
