An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…

The accusation concerning Cyprian, ¹is more heinous, whom all men reverence for his singular faith and excellent learning. But Caussaeus termeth him senseless and without God. They of Magdeburg, call him a corrupter of penance. Shall I be tied to take upon me, and defend every speech, which any man hath at any time uttered? This Caussaeus I never saw, nor before this ever heard of him. But in as much, as you so odiously accuse him, I suppose him to be some learned and godly man. Unto that he saith of Cyprian, I answer that which I remember I have read in^f Nazianzene, viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and given to much vice, and worshipped Devils, and used the help of Devils: He was (saith Nazianzene) a worshipper of Devils, and after a disciple of Christ. ³Your unreasonableness forceth me to mention those things, which I had rather have concealed. For in the Fathers imperfections, you stick fast like a burr, and cease not to rub up the remembrance of those things, which you should do better, not once to touch, If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true, then Caussaeus might say, that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godless. For I cannot think that Caussaeus would write so of him, but in regard of those times, or that any man would conceive so injuriously, of that godly Martyr: whereas they of Magdeburg complain ⟨p. 129⟩that he corrupted the doctrine of repentance, therein they forge against him no new accusation, but rather disclose that which all men know to have been too true. Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very unseasonably and undiscreetly, and not he^g alone, but all the holy Fathers of that time, were tainted with that error. For being desirous by severe laws, to limit and restrain the evil manners of men, they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist, in certain outward disciplines, which they appointed: which severe censuring of sin & sharp punishing of wickedness, might haply be borne withal: but when they thought the punishment of sin to be discharged, Gods justice satisfied, freedom from sin, and certain forgiveness with righteousness hereby to be procured; herein they diminished the power of Christs death, they attributed too much to their own inventions, and in a word depraved the doctrine of repentance:

The accusation concerning Cyprian, ¹is more haynous, whom all men reuerence for his singular faith and excellent learning. But Caussaeus tearmeth him senselesse and without God. They of Magdenburge, call him a corrupter of penance. Shall I be tied to take vpon me, and defend euery speech, which any man hath at any time vttered? This Caussaeus I neuer saw, nor before this euer heard of him. But in as much, as you so odiously accuse him, I suppose him to bee some learned and godly man. Vnto that he saith of Cyprian, I answere that which I remember I haue read in^f Nazianzene, viz. that he was in his youth dissolute and giuen to much vice, and worshipped Diuels, and vsed the helpe of Diuels: He was (saith Nazianzene) a worshipper of Diuels, and after a disciple of Christ. ³Your vnreasonablenes forceth me to mention those things, which I had rather haue concealed. For in the Fathers imperfections, you sticke fast like a burre, and cease not to rub vp the remembrance of those things, which you should doe better, not once to touch, If these things which Nazianzene reporteth of Cyprian be true, then Caussaeus might say, that Cyprian at that time was foolish and godlesse. For I cannot thinke that Caussaeus would write so of him, but in regard of those times, or that any man would conceiue so iniuriously, of that godly Martyr: whereas they of Magdenburge complaine ⟨p. 129⟩that hee corrupted the doctrine of repentance, therein they forge against him no new accusation, but rather disclose that which all men know to haue been too true. Cyprian wrote some thing of Repentance very vnseasonably and vndiscreetly, and not he^g alone, but all the holy Fathers of that time, were tainted with that error. For being desirous by seuere lawes, to limit and restraine the euill manners of men, they made the greatest part of Repentance to consist, in certaine outward disciplines, which they appointed: which seuere censuring of sinne & sharpe punishing of wickednes, might happely be borne withall: but when they thought the punishment of sinne to be discharged, Gods iustice satisfied, freedome from sinne, and certeine forgiuenes with righteousnes hereby to be procured; herein they diminished the power of Christs death, they attributed too much to their owne inuentions, and in a word depraued the doctrine of repentance:

1. 1Cyprian.
2. fDVR. That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of, was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church. WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainly speaketh of the same Cyprian. for see how he describes him; He did not only govern the Church of Carthage, and all Africa, but the whole West, and almost the East, the Southern and Northern parts: how think you, is it not the same Cyprian?DVR. That Cyprian which Nazianzene speaketh of, was not our Cyprian the Father of the Church. WHIT. pag. 367. Nazianzene certainely speaketh of the same Cyprian. for see how hee describes him; He did not only gouerne the Church of Carthage, and all Affricke, but the vvhole VVest, and almost the East, the Southerne and Northerne parts: how thinke you, is it not the same Cyprian?
3. 3Nazian. de Cypri.
4. gDVR. O singular impudency! O intolerable arrogance! what, have all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any virtue any where else. but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What need all this heat? It had been your part to have showed that the Fathers who then lived, have spoken nothing unfitly of repentance, so had you confuted that I charge them with, which your hear will not cure. And what if the Fathers have thought that mens works have all their virtue and power from the merit of Christ; will it thence follow they have spoken nothing unfitly of repentance and works? As if Christ by his death had only merited that we might by our works and merits deserve eternal life; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or hay upon it.DVR. O singular impudencie! O intollerable arrogancie! what, haue all the Fathers in that age erred so sousely in so great a matter? As if they were ignorant that the works of repentance had any vertue any where else. but from the merits and blood of Christ. WHIT. pag. 369. What neede all this heate? It had been your part to haue shewed that the Fathers who then liued, haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance, so had you confuted that I charge them with, which your heare will not cure. And what if the Fathers haue thought that mens works haue all their vertue and power from the merit of Christ; will it thence follow they haue spoken nothing vnfitly of repentance and works? As if Christ by his death had onely merited that we might by our works and merits deserue eternall life; or that they who hold the foundation may not build timber or haie vpon it.

because our sins are cleansed and removed, by no offices or works of ours, but only by the blood and passion of Christ. And so your objection of Repentance is answered. We do not for all this deny the works of Cyprian, nor reject the books of any Father of that age, as you falsely affirm, seeing both he and they agree with us in the greatest questions: but this is the privilege of you and your fellows, that you even greedily hunt after, and pursue, whatsoever is faulty in any author, as if all the Fathers errors, served to make up the body and faith of your religion. Something, you say, Cyprian wrote to Cornelius, ⟨p. 130⟩which if we give credit unto: then Peter Martyr and his confederates, must be held for worse than adulterous & sacrilegious; but what that is, I cannot so much as conjecture. I know that Cyprian sent many letters to Cornelius, but none of them accuse us, either of adultery or sacrilege; neither can you out of those letters allege any thing to our prejudice or your advantage: but this is ever your manner, to prove nothing clearly and distinctly, but only to name the Fathers, and from their names, to raise certain roving & uncertain suspicions. That which you write of Chambers and pillows, I pass over as nothing else, but scoffing and reproachful taunts, such as is common in every varlets mouth. Now you come to the next age, and here you mention Chrysostom, Nazianzene, Ambrose, and Hierome. But to what purpose I pray you?¹ for what if Luther do censure Chrysostom sharply, because by too much advancing our works and merits, he obscureth the righteousness of faith? what though Caussaeus find some thing fabulous in Nazianzene? ^2htherefore are these Fathers wholly on your side? what is this else but dotage, and to speak without wit or fear? Some body said that Ambrose was bewitched by the devil;⁴ whether any ⟨p. 131⟩ever said it or no, I never knew, neither is it greatly material; the best & most righteous men, may sometimes be so far bewitched, as they do not in some things perceive the truth: and you do too openly bewray your malice, by labouring to raise an evil opinion of him, and to make us infamous for such speeches as may have a good construction, though at the first they seem odious. Certainly I have read many Papists, and heard of some, all passing shameless, and malapert;

but more impudent then your self, in all my life, did I never know any. There is no end of your lying, you fear no mens censure, there is neither faith nor truth in any thing you speak. Even now you set upon Beza with a fresh lye. He (you say) hath written that Hierome is as surely damned, as the devil, because he was injurious to the Apostles, a blasphemous, a wicked, and an ungodly man. That Beza affirmeth not these things, I protest and a•ow: let any man that will, see the place; if it be otherwise, let me be accounted very infamous. For as for those first words, that Hierome was damned aswell a• the devil, either they are by malicious cavilling fetched out of some other place, as all the rest are, or altogether forged, as the most. In the place alleged, there is no such thing: Concerning that he saith of Injury and Blasphemy, I will set down Beza his own words, that all men may know your impudency. Even Hierome, ¹saith Beza, if it be true that Erasmus upon this place saith of him, is not only injurious to the Apostle, in that he findeth want of moderation, in this speech, wherein rather appeareth his Divine courage but also is openly blasphemous, in that even in Christ himself he hath found some sign of imperfection. Thus far Beza: the matter of his complaint, is about S. Pauls sharp answer unto the high Priest, in which Hierome, (as Erasmus testifieth) in his Dialogues against Pelagius, findeth some want of moderation, & not only ⟨p. 132⟩so, but even in Christ himself, he looketh for some imperfection of piety; which reports of Hierome, if it be true as Erasmus affirmeth, why might not Beza justly esteem him, in the one injurious to the Apostle, in the other so blasphemous against Christ? For what can be devised more unworthy the Apostle then that in his answer to the high Priest, he should show too much spleen, or what could be spoken more blasphemous against Christ, than that the grace, wherewith he was endued, was imperfect. But Beza further reprehendeth Hieromes exceeding boldness, in wresting the Scriptures, wherein he hath most just cause of complaint: for either Hierome wrested the Scriptures, or they are so weak and easy of themselves, as they may be any way turned. And truly he must be very desperate, that should defend Hieromes interpretations. Gregorius Massonius esteemeth more of Calvin, then of a thousand Augustines:

But you tell us, why we do so much avoid the Fathers. I had rather you would tell us why you do so carefully avoid the Scriptures. For (say you) they that cannot away with set times of Fasting, must needs be offended with Basil, Naziancene, Leo, and Chrysostom, which have published excellent Sermons of Lent. Christ ordained no set and ordinary fasts in the Gospel,^k Lent was appointed long after, and the manner of ⟨p. 134⟩observing it in those times, was not one & the same in all Churches. We both allow and use public and Christian fasts which are fitted to the time and the Churches occasions: as for your appointed, and yearly solemn fasts, we do with good reason reject them, because they are full of superstition, and injurious unto Christian liberty. Our judgement of fasting is the same which Augustine hath taught:² I find it not set down in any Commandment of the Lord, or his Apostles, what days we ought to fast, what not. Augustine then knew not these your set yearly ceremonies of fasting, not your Lenten fast, which hath a certain time and number of days prescribed. Further (you say) they that have set their souls to sale for gold, lust, excess, and worldly ostentation how can they be but most opposite to Basil, Chrysostom, Hierome, and Augustine, whose books of the profession of Monks are in every mans hands? what will you censure all to be covetous, lustful, gluttonous, or ambitious that are not Monks? back with that foot you were best, for fear of your head: for neither the Pope, nor his Cardinals and Bishops, hold it either necessary, or convenient for them to lay aside, their abundant wealth, continual pleasures, their dainty fare, their kingly honour, and thrust themselves into a Monastery; whosoever liveth after their fashion, cannot be well affected to Basil, nor any man that is holy.^l For they are altogether so drowned in sensuality and excess, making themselves drudges unto their ambitions, banquets, and delights. And to conclude: in the ⟨p. 135⟩whole course of their lives, so behaving themselves, as becometh better sensual and voluptuous persons, proceeding out of the gardens of Epicures, then grave teachers out of Christs School. Who knoweth not that the whole world crieth shame upon you, and hath done continually and most deservedly?

you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well enough known to be your own fault; your Prelates and Monks, whose goodly order and strait rule of severe discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirm that they excelled all others, who giving themselves wholly over to pleasures, (while the most took great pains and always did something whereby to live) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others must seem not to live, if that be to live which you have esteemed. But what need I answer you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which have not one Monk in your whole Church any thing resembling those of ancient time, neither do you observe the old manner of fasting? but you go on, and upbraid us with fouler matters. They that have brought a bondage upon mans will, which have taken away Christian funerals, which have burned Saints relics can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) have wronged no Saints, we have neither burned their relics, nor taken away their funerals:^m only we could not suffer any profane superstition, injurious to the Majesty and glory of God; and for this we have the direction of God himself, being our pattern whom we follow, and Augustine also herein consenteth with us: But we have ⟨p. 136⟩captivated the will of man, and then (you say) how can we be well affected unto Augustine? well enough, why not? for (say you) he writ three books of free will. A most witless and ridiculous collection: Augustine writ three books of freewill, ergo Augustine affirmeth that men have freewill. If that reason be currant, then this also: Augustine writ a book of two souls against the Manichees; also a book of lying; another of the quantity of the soul; ergo Augustine defendeth two souls in a man; ergo he praised lying; ergo he attributeth greatness & quantity to the soul. I pray you what difference is there? I grant Augustine writ those books you mention, but they overthrow not our opinion, who affirm that the will of man is in bondage: & if ever you had perused those books, you would never have affirmed it, nor once named the books in this matter.

you for all that blush not to lay those things to our charge, which are well inough knowne to bee your owne fault; your Prelates and Monkes, whose goodly order and straite rule of seuere discipline, (you report) differ as much from other men, as the Tarrentines were wont to affirme that they excelled all others, who giuing themselues wholy ouer to pleasures, (while the most tooke great paines and alwaies did something whereby to liue) thought their life the only true life. Such is and hath bin your life, that others must seeme not to liue, if that be to liue which you haue esteemed. But what need I answere you any more of fasting and Monkish orders, which haue not one Monke in your whole Church any thing resembling those of auncient time, neither do you obserue the old manner of fasting? but you goe on, and vpbraide vs with fouler matters. They that haue brought a bondage vpon mans will, which haue taken away Christian funerals, which haue burned Saints reliques can they (say you) be well pleased with Augustine? we (Campion) haue wronged no Saints, we haue neither burned their reliques, nor taken away their funerals:

Augustine writ these books against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controversy, but of the cause of sin which proceeded from freewill, and he entitled those books of freewill, because in them he intendeth to show, that the original and beginning of sin is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might easily have learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.¹ The discourse was undertaken for them that deny sin to have his original from the free action of our will, affirming, that from this would follow, that God himself the author of nature is culpable. And so proceedeth, utterly denying, that he had any purpose in those books, to speak of that will, which is made free by Gods grace. And whatsoever in these books passed his pen, which seemed to favour the Pelagians, then Patrons of freewill, as you are now, all that he carefully collecteth out of the whole work, and cleareth it from their cavils. Have we any cause to be offended with Augustine, which in this question is ⟨p. 137⟩not against us? And that you may plainly perceive, how indiscreetly you alleged these books of freewill, mark what he writeth of the will of man in those same books:ⁿ Hold thou fast (saith Augustine) this principal of piety, ³that no good thing happens unto thee, either when thou thinkest or understandest, or any way imaginest, which is not from God. And this was Augustine's constant opinion of freewill: after that being stirred by the Pelagians, he throughly understood the question, viz. that he judged it, to be utterly lost and gone.^o Man (saith he) by abusing his freewill lost both it and himself.⁵

Augustine writ these bookes against the Manichees, wherein he disputeth not of mans freewill, which is the point in controuersie, but of the cause of sinne which proceeded from freewill, and he entituled those bookes of freewill, because in them he intendeth to shew, that the originall and beginning of sinne is to be found in mans freewill, not in God. This you might easily haue learned out of his retractations; for thus he writeth.

But yet further you urge Augustine against us, for (say you) they that make their captious devises, the rule of their faith, must not they be offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was ever accounted a book: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against us? in which he professeth himself to agree with Antiquity, unity, perpetual succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so ⟨p. 138⟩many heresies, hath attained unto the name Catholic by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdom and truth; else all the other bind us not; for they are of no value without that wisdom; but this wisdom and truth, though without these, is of it self to be preferred before all things: so saith Augustine, ¹if the truth appear manifestly, so as it cannot be doubted of, it alone is more to be esteemed then ^pall those reasons, that keep me in the Catholic Church. Thus then Augustine setteth more by the truth it self alone, and sincere wisdom, then all those things you mention, Antiquity Unity, Succession, and we perceiving this truth and wisdom so manifestly in our Churches, that none, that will see the truth, can doubt whether we hold the truth or no; do willingly give you free liberty to brag, whilst you list, of antiquity, unity, & succession, without the truth. There is then, as you see, no cause, why we should be angry with Augustine, either now or before.

But yet further you vrge Augustine against vs, for (say you) they that make their captious deuises, the rule of their faith, must not they bee offended with Augustine, which hath an excellent Epistle against Manicheus? An Epistle (Campian) do you call it? it was euer accounted a booke: but what is there in that Epistle (as you call it) against vs? in which he professeth himselfe to agree with Antiquity, vnity, perpetuall succession, and with that Church, which alone amongst so ⟨p. 138⟩many heresies, hath attained vnto the name Catholike by prescription. We also agree with that Church, which hath all these. And yet to these must be added (as Augustine saith in the same place) sincere wisdome and truth; else all the other bind vs not; for they are of no value without that wisdome; but this wisdome and truth, though without these, is of it selfe to bee preserred before all things: so saith Augustine,

But at length you leave Augustine, and call out Optatus, Bishop of Miletum; of whom you say, you desire to know, what our opinion is. I verily think he was a good Father, and very like unto Augustine, and I take the things to be true, which many worthy men have said in his commendation. But he disproved the Donatists by the communion of the Catholic Church. Why should he not? or what doth that concern us? Augustine also observed the same course, and it was a good motive, that the communion of the Church should be objected to the schismatical Donatists, which seditiously without cause, separated themselves from the Church. But we deny your Church to be Catholic, and therefore you cannot thus convince us, though Optatus might thereby confute the Donatists. It must first appear, that it is the ⟨p. 139⟩Church, before we can be convicted of schism. The^q Church of Rome was then the preserver of Religion, the maintainer of the true faith, and shined like a star in the sight of all other Churches: no marvel then though the most holy Fathers, esteemed much the reverence of this Church, & urged the heretics with the example of it,² as a great prejudice unto them. Hence it is, that sometimes they allege the decrees and succession of the Bishops of Rome, thereby proving that the heresies, by them refuted, were not heard of, in the most famous and honourable Church. But since that time the course of the Church is turned, and the Sea of Rome hath declined and degenerated from her sincere faith, to detestable falsehood. Restore us (Campian) the old Church of Rome, and we will never separate our selves from her: but of that Church you have nothing left, but the walls and old rubbish, yet still you brag of the name of the Catholic Church. And whereas you mention Altars, on which the members of Christ are carried, and Chalices containing his blood, I know well many things concerning Altars, are to be found in the ancient Fathers, which Altars in Africa, were not of stone, but^r wooden, as you may see in Augustine's ⟨p. 140⟩Epistle to Boniface: and I grant the members of Christ, and his

They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they favour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speak wisely; as^t though we were so envious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.² He with his Synod of Alexandria, humbly appealed unto the sentence of the Apostolic Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as a^u Poet, sometimes called upon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custom of praying to Saints had now taken deep root in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Jovinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintain them not. That^* Ambrose should be careful, to commend and set forth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither do we wholly mislike Gregory, with whom surely you have more cause to be offended, then we. But whereas he said that Images were lay-mens books, he neither learned in^x the school of the holy Ghost, nor found^y it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers that were before him; and thus at length, have you finished this long catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would fain know, that moved you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your self to think, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Calvin and their confederates, do write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi zen, do otherwhiles err in some questions in this or that book, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceived, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reject and condemn all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selves, being very often by plain authorities of the Fathers convinced, deny flatly that you are tied to the authority of any father, and from them you appeal to the judgment of the Church? Would you not think your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should infer, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?

But this is the issue of your disputation, and the mark whereat all this your discourse aimeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a heinous and unheard-of wickedness.

But this is the issue of your disputation, and the marke whereat all this your discourse aymeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes.

Think not (Campian) our University to be so childish that they cannot discern the indifferency of our proceeding herein, from your unjust calumniation. The Fathers we esteem highly, we peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently study Divinity. By this means we increase our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraid to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, ⟨p. 143⟩Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholics opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, thrown in corners, which without much pains and weariness you could not collect, yet your fellows of late years have diligently sought out and published: Whilst they (say you) are to be sold at the Stationers, so long our mens books are in vain prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessity restrain, your books are such as it behooveth us to stop their passage, unless we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresy, and mens minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to prevent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious books be nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and unlearned men do suck poison of deadly error. Neither are we the first that have taken this course. You may remember in Queen Mary's time, that they proceeded by marshal law against all those, with whom any of our books were found. If this were in us a matter worthy of death, so that we were by and by drawn to punishment, as men guilty of high treason, and that without any jud•••al proceedings, small reason have you to look, that your books now, should have such free liberty, to be every where publicly sold. We take order, that the books of the holy Fathers, are brought unto us from every matte, we buy them, we have them in our private studies and public Library a wo• place them in open view, that they be known; nor only by face, but by daily familiarity. Where you affirm, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more ••gerly inveigh against those dreams, then the Fatherd before mentioned:

Thinke not (Campian) our Vniuersitie to be so childish that they cannot discerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein, from your vniust calumniation. The Fathers wee esteeme highly, wee peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently studie Diuinitie. By this meanes we encrease our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraide to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies,

you have ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an overplus to the things that went before. These your old soldiers have employed in this case, whatsoever, either reading or leisure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply unto them, and for all this have gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to perform that, wherein they have failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combat. I bewail (Campian) your rashness, and foolish hardiness, which will needs take upon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the undoubted loss of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherein you may make trial of your strength in the combat which you desire.

you haue ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an ouerplus to the things that went before. These your old souldiers haue imployed in this case, whatsoeuer, either reading or leysure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply vnto them, and for all this haue gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to performe that, wherein they haue failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combate. I bewaile (Campian) your rashnes, and foolish hardines, which will needs take vpon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the vndoubted losse of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherin you may make triall of your strength in the combate which you desire.

John Jewel (say you) challenged the Catholics, when you were a young student, calling upon and desiring the help of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. years after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himself able to perform: he had read over all the Fathers with special judgement and diligence; he saw how you deceived the ignorant, he had a care to preserve his countrymen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would have it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists unto this trial, viz. if they could confirm their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witness of Fathers and Councils, they should overcome: if they failed, they should confess themselves were vanquished. Certain renowned men (say you) living as Exiles as Lo•ane, entertain th• offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captain of these, he adventured himself hand to hand, in this combat, but how worthily performed he the condition? Jewel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certain Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, ⟨p. 145⟩and others of this rank, Fathers of worshipful antiquity: If all the ancient Fathers of the Church, be (as you brag) of your side, why should Harding turn his back so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most weighty cause wherein we demanded the judgement of antiquity, a company of upstart bastards, I know not from whence, whom no man before had saluted, seen or heard of, passing by of purpose, the known and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reverend antiquity you talk of? must we have these fellows digged out of their graves, to help you in your desperate cause? hear me (Campian) that which Jewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the trial of six hundred years antiquity, offering also to yield you the victory, if you brought one plain and manifest authority, out of any Father or Council; that same we do all profess and promise, and will surely perform it.

Iohn Iewel (say you) challenged the Catholikes, when you were a young student, calling vpon and desiring the helpe of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. yeares after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himselfe able to performe: he had read ouer all the Fathers with speciall iudgement and diligence; hee saw how you deceiued the ignorant, he had a care to preserue his countrimen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would haue it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists vnto this triall, viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels, they should ouercome: if they failed, they should confesse themselues were vanquished. Certeine renowmed men (say you) liuing as Exiles as Loane, entertaine th offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captaine of these, he aduentured himselfe hand to hand, in this combate, but how worthily performed he the condition? Iwel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certeine Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes,

Twenty years are expired, and not one of you hitherto could perform the condition: if you persuade your self to have more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before have had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you have read nothing, you have no strength answerable to such an endeavour. The learned Humphrey did not tax Jewel, as if he had too liberally undertaken for the Fathers, or performed less then he promised; but only that he had yielded further unto you, then he needed, and called back the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the trial of Scriptures; for he knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beat down that their insolent and most false brag of antiquity, which prevailed with many. You say further that you ⟨p. 146⟩have conferred sometimes familiarly with To•y Matthew, and w••led him to answer freely, whether he that read the Fathers diligently, could be of that part which •e favoured. Although in private and familiar conference we say many things, which we would not have further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Matthew gave you such an answer, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his judgement and wisdom. We must not in all things believe the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend upon their word. Sometimes they have erred and been the occasion of errors unto others; yet may we read them, & by their truths be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to be the only man amongst us conversant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you have thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without fear come into the battle and fight with us. You are still telling us of armies, skirmishes, wars, camps and of your battles: but you should remember that the trial of war is common to both sides, and the issues of battles uncertain. The and of war lieth in the strength of arms, not in the stoutness of words.

Twentie yeares are expired, and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition: if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before haue had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you haue read nothing, you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor. The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel, as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers, or performed lesse then he promised; but only that he had yeelded further vnto you, then he needed, and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the triall of Scriptures; for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie, which preuailed with many. You say further that you

EDMUND CAMPIAN. The sixth Reason, which is the foundation of the Fathers.

EDMVND CAMPIAN. The sixt Reason, which is the foundation of the Fathers.