An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they favour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speak wisely; ast though we were so envious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.2 He with his Synod of Alexandria, humbly appealed unto the sentence of the Apostolic Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as au Poet, sometimes called upon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custom of praying to Saints had now taken deep root in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Jovinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintain them not. That* Ambrose should be careful, to commend and set forth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither do we wholly mislike Gregory, with whom surely you have more cause to be offended, then we. But whereas he said that Images were lay-mens books, he neither learned inx the school of the holy Ghost, nor foundy it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers that were before him; and thus at length, have you finished this long catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would fain know, that moved you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your self to think, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Calvin and their confederates, do write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostom, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi•• zen, do otherwhiles err in some questions in this or that book, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceived, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reject and condemn all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selves, being very often by plain authorities of the Fathers convinced, deny flatly that you are tied to the authority of any father, and from them you appeal to the judgment of the Church? Would you not think your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should infer, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?
They sing (say you) in their Churches, the Creed of Athanasius, but they fauour him not; and why? because he praiseth Antony the Hermit. You speake wisely; ast though we were so enuious, that we could not with patience endure any man to be praised: nay there is somewhat else.2 He with his Synode of Alexandria, humblie appealed vnto the sentence of the Apostolike Sea: this Epistle is all counterfeit, compacted of many lies, and monstrous flattery. Prudentius I grant as au Poet, sometimes called vpon the Martyrs, whose acts he describes in verse, and the superstitious ⟨p. 141⟩custome of praying to Saints had now taken deepe roote in the Church: which as a Tyrant haled sometimes the holy Fathers into the same error. As for Vigillantius and Iouinian, against whom Hirr•••• writeth most bitterly; if they taught those things that are laid to their charge, we maintaine them not. That* Ambrose should be carefull, to commend and set sorth the praises of his friends Geruasius and Protasius, we willingly permit. Neither doe we wholy mislike Gregory, with whom surely you haue more cause to be offended, then we. But wheras he said that Images were lay-mens bookes, hee neither learned inx the schoole of the holy Ghost, nor foundy it in the ⟨p. 142⟩books of the Fathers yt were before him; and thus at length, haue you finished this longe catalogue of the Fathers. The reason I would faine know, that moued you to go thorough them on this manner. For what? are you so blockish your selfe to thinke, or hope you, that any others will like of this kind of reasoning: viz. Luther, Caluin and their confederates, doe write that Irenaus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Chrysostome, Augustine, Hierome, Ambrose, Gregory, Basil, and Nazi•• zen, do otherwiles erre in some questions in this or that booke, and they saw not the true meaning of some Scripture, but were sometimes deceiued, that is, they were men: therefore they banish, reiect and condemne all these Fathers? Is this your meaning, Campian? why then do you your selues, being verie often by plaine authorities of the Fathers cōuinced, deny flatly that you are tyed to the authority of any father, and from them you appeale to the iudgment of the Church? Would you not thinke your self hardly dealt withal, if hence I should inferre, that you disallow the Fathers whole volumes?
tDVR. But do you think Hermits are worthy of any praise, whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony? WHIT. pag. 391. Grant we well approve of the old Hermits, yet may we think bad enough of your Monks, as we have done and profess it for just causes, seeing they differ both so much in manners and judgements. Antonius the Hermits grandfather was wont to say, that it was as dangerous for a Monk to go out of his hermitage, as for fishes to leave the water. If you praise Antony so much, why do you not follow him? why do you swarm in all cities and famous places, and do not rather live in some remote wilderness, as fishes swim in the Sea? so should you be more like to Antony, and free these parts from great damage.DVR. But doe you thinke Hermits are worthy of any praise, whom Athanasius praised in the person of Antony? WHIT. pag. 391. Graunt vve vvell approue of the old Hermits, yet may we thinke bad enough of your Monkes, as vve haue done and professe it for iust causes, seeing they differ both so much in manners and iudgements. Antonius the Hermits grandfather vvas vvont to say, that it was as dangerous for a Monke to go out of his hermitage, as for fishes to leaue the water. If you praise Antony so much, vvhy do you not follovv him? vvhy do you svvarme in all cities and famous places, and doe not rather liue in some remote wildernesse, as fishes swim in the Sea? so should you be more like to Antony, and free these parts from great damage.
2Athan. Ep. ad Fel. 2.
uDVR. Because he was a Poet, forgot he to be a Christian? or did he any thing in verse, which infinite & learned •athers have not done before in prose? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knoweth not that Poets were wont to weigh what the verse required, more then what piety called for, and to follow the elegance of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures? And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault with: yet see how foolish it is to avow poetical exornations for reasons in the controversies of religion. And if Prudentius followed so many Fathers, why name you not one of them▪ For 300. years after Christ there was no such custom in the Church, which you affirm so infinite a number of Fathers used: and it rose up in the Church but a little before Prudentius days; but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the word.DVR. Because he was a Poet, forgate hee to be a Christian? or did he any thing in verse, which infinit & learned •athers haue not done before in prose? WHIT. pag. 392. Who knovveth not that Poets vvere vvont to vveigh vvhat the verse required, more then vvhat piety called for, and to follovv the elegancy of poetry more then the streight doctrine of the Scriptures? And such liberty of Poets men commonly find no great fault vvith: yet see hovv foolish it is to auovv poeticall exornations for reasons in the controuersies of religion. And if Prudentius follovved so many Fathers, vvhy name you not one of them For 300. yeares after Christ there vvas no such custome in the Church, vvhich you affirme so infinite a number of Fathers vsed: and it rose vp in the Church but a little before Prudentius daies; but both this and all other superstitions must be corrected by the authority of the vvord.
But this is the issue of your disputation, and the mark whereat all this your discourse aimeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a heinous and unheard-of wickedness.
But this is the issue of your disputation, and the marke whereat all this your discourse aymeth, namely, that because we dislike some things in the Fathers, which in their writings cannot be defended, therefore we violate all, we offer great wrong and reproach to the Fathers, we commit a hainous and vnhard-of wickednes.
Think not (Campian) our University to be so childish that they cannot discern the indifferency of our proceeding herein, from your unjust calumniation. The Fathers we esteem highly, we peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently study Divinity. By this means we increase our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraid to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies, ⟨p. 143⟩Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholics opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, thrown in corners, which without much pains and weariness you could not collect, yet your fellows of late years have diligently sought out and published: Whilst they (say you) are to be sold at the Stationers, so long our mens books are in vain prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessity restrain, your books are such as it behooveth us to stop their passage, unless we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresy, and mens minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to prevent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious books be nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and unlearned men do suck poison of deadly error. Neither are we the first that have taken this course. You may remember in Queen Mary's time, that they proceeded by marshal law against all those, with whom any of our books were found. If this were in us a matter worthy of death, so that we were by and by drawn to punishment, as men guilty of high treason, and that without any jud•••al proceedings, small reason have you to look, that your books now, should have such free liberty, to be every where publicly sold. We take order, that the books of the holy Fathers, are brought unto us from every matte, we buy them, we have them in our private studies and public Library a wo• place them in open view, that they be known; nor only by face, but by daily familiarity. Where you affirm, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, do more ••gerly inveigh against those dreams, then the Fatherd before mentioned:
Thinke not (Campian) our Vniuersitie to be so childish that they cannot discerne the indifferencie of our proceeding herein, from your vniust calumniation. The Fathers wee esteeme highly, wee peruse them daily, we commend them to the reading of all such as exactly and diligently studie Diuinitie. By this meanes we encrease our knowledge, and are better furnished with armour of defence against you. You are afraide to want time, and therefore you omit many things, Epistles, Sermons, Homilies,
you have ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an overplus to the things that went before. These your old soldiers have employed in this case, whatsoever, either reading or leisure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply unto them, and for all this have gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to perform that, wherein they have failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combat. I bewail (Campian) your rashness, and foolish hardiness, which will needs take upon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the undoubted loss of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherein you may make trial of your strength in the combat which you desire.
you haue ⟨p. 144⟩added this saying as an ouerplus to the things that went before. These your old souldiers haue imployed in this case, whatsoeuer, either reading or leysure, or cunning, or wit, or diligence, or malice, could supply vnto them, and for all this haue gained nothing: and hope you, that are not worthy to be compared with these, to performe that, wherein they haue failed? yet you said, that thinking of these things, your courage increased, and you desired the combate. I bewaile (Campian) your rashnes, and foolish hardines, which will needs take vpon you, the patronage of a desperate cause, with the vndoubted losse of your credit and safety; and I wish that the day may once come, wherin you may make triall of your strength in the combate which you desire.
John Jewel (say you) challenged the Catholics, when you were a young student, calling upon and desiring the help of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. years after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himself able to perform: he had read over all the Fathers with special judgement and diligence; he saw how you deceived the ignorant, he had a care to preserve his countrymen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would have it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists unto this trial, viz. if they could confirm their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witness of Fathers and Councils, they should overcome: if they failed, they should confess themselves were vanquished. Certain renowned men (say you) living as Exiles as Lo•ane, entertain th• offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captain of these, he adventured himself hand to hand, in this combat, but how worthily performed he the condition? Jewel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certain Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes, ⟨p. 145⟩and others of this rank, Fathers of worshipful antiquity: If all the ancient Fathers of the Church, be (as you brag) of your side, why should Harding turn his back so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most weighty cause wherein we demanded the judgement of antiquity, a company of upstart bastards, I know not from whence, whom no man before had saluted, seen or heard of, passing by of purpose, the known and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reverend antiquity you talk of? must we have these fellows digged out of their graves, to help you in your desperate cause? hear me (Campian) that which Jewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the trial of six hundred years antiquity, offering also to yield you the victory, if you brought one plain and manifest authority, out of any Father or Council; that same we do all profess and promise, and will surely perform it.
Iohn Iewel (say you) challenged the Catholikes, when you were a young student, calling vpon and desiring the helpe of the Fathers, as many as flourished 600. yeares after Christ. That worthy man, did that he knew himselfe able to performe: he had read ouer all the Fathers with speciall iudgement and diligence; hee saw how you deceiued the ignorant, he had a care to preserue his countrimen from your dangerous error. And hereupon without any boasting, as you would haue it, but trusting only in the power of God, and the truth of the cause, he calleth forth all the generation of Papists vnto this triall, viz. if they could confirme their opinions by the holy Scriptures, or by the witnes of Fathers and Councels, they should ouercome: if they failed, they should confesse themselues were vanquished. Certeine renowmed men (say you) liuing as Exiles as Loane, entertaine th offer, and allow of the condition. Harding was the captaine of these, he aduentured himselfe hand to hand, in this combate, but how worthily performed he the condition? Iwel calleth for Fathers; Harding produceth certeine Clements, Abdies, Martials, Hippolyes, Amphilochytes,
Twenty years are expired, and not one of you hitherto could perform the condition: if you persuade your self to have more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before have had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you have read nothing, you have no strength answerable to such an endeavour. The learned Humphrey did not tax Jewel, as if he had too liberally undertaken for the Fathers, or performed less then he promised; but only that he had yielded further unto you, then he needed, and called back the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the trial of Scriptures; for he knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beat down that their insolent and most false brag of antiquity, which prevailed with many. You say further that you ⟨p. 146⟩have conferred sometimes familiarly with To•y Matthew, and w••led him to answer freely, whether he that read the Fathers diligently, could be of that part which •e favoured. Although in private and familiar conference we say many things, which we would not have further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Matthew gave you such an answer, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his judgement and wisdom. We must not in all things believe the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend upon their word. Sometimes they have erred and been the occasion of errors unto others; yet may we read them, & by their truths be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to be the only man amongst us conversant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you have thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without fear come into the battle and fight with us. You are still telling us of armies, skirmishes, wars, camps and of your battles: but you should remember that the trial of war is common to both sides, and the issues of battles uncertain. The and of war lieth in the strength of arms, not in the stoutness of words.
Twentie yeares are expired, and not one of you hitherto could performe the condition: if you perswade your selfe to haue more sufficiency hereunto, then your masters before haue had, why stay you? why sit you still? why discontinue you the defence of so good a cause? But alas, you are no body, you haue read nothing, you haue no strength answerable to such an endeuor. The learned Humphrey did not taxe Iewel, as if he had too liberally vndertaken for the Fathers, or performed lesse then he promised; but only that he had yeelded further vnto you, then he needed, and called backe the cause which was already determined by the Scriptures, to the authorities of the Fathers; which yet he did not, as though he distrusted any thing, the triall of Scriptures; for hee knew that they were sufficient to refute all popish errors: but that hereby he might beate downe that their insolent and most false bragge of antiquitie, which preuailed with many. You say further that you
IF ever that saying (a search the Scriptures) was loved, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst us; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conveyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they delivered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their pains and teachings, have they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole days and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of every Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselves, even until crooked old age crept upon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also upon the authority of their Ancestors, upon the common practise of the Church, upon the succession of Bishops, upon general Councils, upon Traditions of the Apostles, upon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, upon the decrees of Pre•••s, upon strange signs and marn••••us •••racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they urge, upon these they make ⟨p. 148⟩their habitation, to these Scriptures as unto the coatb armour of valiant soldiers, they worthily yield the highest and most honourable place, like noble captains, daily defending the Catholic Church, which is the city of God, by them kept in good repair, against all mischievous assaults of her enemy: the which thing maketh me the more to marvel, at that proud and foolish exception of the adversary, who like one that seeketh for water in the running river, complaineth for the scarcity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleged. So long he saith he is content to be judged by the Fathers as they swerve not from the Scriptures. Doth he speak as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most ancient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denis, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostom, S. Augustine, and S.
Gregory the great shall come forth well armed and upholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may* reign in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may reign in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so lovingly have builded up out of the Scriptures. Look what Scriptures they bring, we will bring the same; look what Scriptures they confer, we will confer the same; look what Scriptures they allege, we will allege the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a Gods name, and tell me plainly what you think. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? ô now I know, after thy own fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind entreat dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Universities, that most freshly flourish, there will join together a great number of such as will look into these controversies; not grossly, but with sharp ⟨p. 149⟩judgement, and will weigh these mens trifling answer not partially, but in equal balance; I will therefore, with a cheerful courage expect this day of battle, as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility, & force of Christs Church, against a monkest multitude of ragged Rogues.
Gregory the great shall come forth wel armed and vpholden with Christ, with the Prophets, with the Apostles, and with the whole furniture of the Bible. Grant good Lord, that, that religion may* raigne in England, I say good Christ grant, that, that religion may raigne in England, that these Fathers that embrace the Scriptures, so louingly haue builded vp out of the Scriptures. Looke what Scriptures they bring, wee will bring the same; looke what Scriptures they conferre, we will conferre the same; looke what Scriptures they alleadge, we will alleadge the same. Art thou also contented with this? cough out Sir a Gods name, and tell me plainly what you thinke. I like them not thou wilt say except they interpret the said Scriptures rightly; what meanest thou by saying rightly? ô now I know, after thy owne fancy. Art thou not ashamed of this blind intreate dealing? Then for as much as I am in good hope, that in the foresaid Vniuersities, that most freshly flourish, there will ioyne together a great number of such as will looke into these controuersies; not grosely, but with sharpe
I Cannot well conjecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may be, which you propound unto us. As touching the fathers we have given you your answer, and have plainly proved, that they afford no foundation for you to build your cause upon. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you judged it not safe for you to rest in them, unless you brought forth certain foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselves. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might show you esteemed their sayings as divine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would jump with you in that point, you now endeavour by certain foundations to fortify and strengthen the authority of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinews of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers have searched the Scriptures most diligently, they have heaped up store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they have attributed the chief place to these: therefore we ought to be content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sin we may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verily I profess you have laid these things down so faintly and loosely, that I can hardly discern their scope: for what, I pray you, can be spoken more loosely? The fathers have diligently laboured to understand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they have never erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will give you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch he withstood Peter to his face: what a kind of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your self find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and haply you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you go to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latin Church. What do they tell you? Augustine think that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thought Hierome that he spoke feignedly. If you approve the one, you must needs reject the other; for you cannot consent with both. Six hundred of this kind I could propound unto you.
I know how, saith Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. 1They ever sp••k• the tr•••, these as man have erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conversant in them, and spent themselves wholly in meditating upon them. From these you may discern how your accusation is most unjust, and our defence most equal and just. I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations: so you will confess they are men, extol them with all the praises you can to the very heavens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer us to do: then I doubt not but this fight would have a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his own voice, and commended to our diligent search, you fly from and abhor, as thieves do the gallows, ⟨p. 152⟩you abandon them out of mens sight, and yet you have never done searching; for you compass sea and land to find out old traditions and customs long ago dead and buried, mens inventions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, feigned and forged books, diriges, scraps; dreams and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, cas Christ hath commanded,3 and the ancient fathers have done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would do that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, unwritten verities, the Popes Canons, we would willingly set up our rest there; but when we are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, do not much blame us, if we so far, as you speak, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot justly blame that in us which you confess is commendable in them.d For Christ commanded us aswell as them, to search
And therefore, Campian, make you no doubt, we speak unfeignedly; we will subscribe to the fathers, while they consent to the Scriptures. Doth this thing please you? so it seemeth. For you say, You will see that these most ancient writers, S. Denis, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostom, S. Augustine, and S. Gregory the great, shall come forth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible. But what if they will not obey your commandment, neither serve for wages in your tents? will you compel them against their wills to bear arms in your camps? It is more then you can do: they will not endure themselves to be thus compelled or forced. You call them man by man, but they will not answer to those names: yea, both these now named by you, and all ancient fathers do proclaim open war against ⟨p. 160⟩you, and if you please, let us spend a little time in the trial of it.
And therefore, Campian, make you no doubt, we speake vnfeinedly; wee will subscribe to the fathers, while they consent to the Scriptures. Doth this thing please you? so it seemeth. For you say, You will see that these most ancient writers, S. Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S. Gregory the great, shall come foorth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible. But what if they will not obey your commandement, neither serue for wages in your tents? will you compell them against their willes to beare armes in your campes? It is more then you can doe: they will not indure themselues to bee thus compelled or forced. You call them man by man, but they wil not answere to those names: yea, both these now named by you, and all auncient fathers doe proclaime open warre against ⟨p. 160⟩you, and if you please, let vs spend a little time in the triall of it.
This Denis whosoever he was cannot be on your side, while you maintainf private Mass. For he hath described the public communion of the whole Church, such as Christ at the first instituted, and the ancient Church ever held. The very same thing doth Justine the Philosopher and martyr,2 who in his Apology before Anthony the Emperor, laid open the order of discipline, which Christ held in his holy assembly. At that time the whole people receivedg bread & wine, now with you they receive neither.h Cyprian makes all the Apostles equal with Peter, 5and directly affirmeth that they have like honour and authority with him, and forbids all appeals to the Bishop of Rome. Therefore he must needs deest your Pope, who preferreth himself both in dignity ⟨p. 161⟩& authority before all other Bishops, & from all parts draws unto his courts all appeals.i Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without question.7kThere can be no religion wheresoever there is an image. If he now lived and saw your Churches full of images, would he acknowledge any sign of true Religion? Athanasius affirmeth,9 That the holy Scriptures given by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth: wherein with one word he hath put to slight the whole armies of yourl traditions. Epiphanius sharply reproveth certain foolish women,11
Doth not this thing touch you, doth not this speech draw blood of you? who never ask any thing of God in your prayers, but first you seek some of the Saints to be a mediator for you, to whom you commend the care of your business and requests.1sHierome did too much contemn your Pope, and other your glorious Bishops, when he writeth that a Priest and a Bishop, by the law of God ⟨image 101⟩are all one; do you judge him worthy to be a Father of the Romish Church, the Bishop whereof you make not only to be far above all Priests, but also all Bishops?t Gelasius who himself was a Bishop of Rome, condemneth your dry and maimed supper as Sacrilegious, and strictly commandeth, 4that either the whole be received, or it be wholly omitted. Will the authority of the Pope move you no whit at all? Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from us in his humane nature.u The Son of God in his humane nature is gone from us: but in his divine nature he is always with us, whereas you say Christ is present in both natures.* Chrysostom exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles,7 read the Scriptures, and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife, the father with his children, would confer among themselves of the ⟨p. 165⟩Scriptures. But this neither can, nor lawfully may be done in your Church, yea, it is a certain proof of an heretic, for any to have the Bible in his house. What shall I say of Augustine, who in the greatest and most principal controversies, as of grace, predestination, free will, justification, the Scripture, the Law, the Gospel, sin, good works, Sacraments, and Church is wholly and fully ours. I should never make an end if I should pursue particulars, and collect but a little of every thing.
And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople, and given to the Bishop of Rome. Leave trifling, Campian, and even tell me plainly,y if that name in the Bishop of ⟨p. 166⟩Constantinople was a sign of the approaching of Antichrist, why may we not judge it in the Bishop of Rome, a notable ensign of the same Antichrist? now I have given you a taste by which you may judge other things: you must either get you other fathers, or for all these you must needs yield as overcome. Do we at length speak without riddles? what is it you else desire of us? wherefore Campian, get you into this camp, and show forth all your valour: you shall verily find you have to deal, not with naked and unarmed beggars, but with well appointed and well harnessed adversaries.
And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople, and giuen to the Bishop of Rome. Leaue trifling, Campian, and euen tell me plainely,y if that name in the Bishop of ⟨p. 166⟩Constantinople was a signe of the approching of Antichrist, why may wee not iudge it in the Bishop of Rome, a notable ensigne of the same Antichrist? now I haue giuen you a taste by which you may iudge other things: you must either get you other fathers, or for all these you must needes yeeld as ouercome. Doe wee at length speake without riddles? what is it you els desire of vs? wherefore Campian, get you into this campe, and shew forth all your valour: you shall verily finde you haue to deale, not with naked and vnarmed beggars, but with well appointed and well harnessed aduersaries.
yDVR. Who seeth not in what sense th•se Bishops of Rome would not this name unto themselves, though they always professed them Bishops of the universal and Catholic Church, and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not mean to be understood of any who speak on this manner: but tell us, is the Pope universal Bishop or no? If he be, how cometh the change, that, that which was Antichristian in the Patriarch of Constantinople by the judgement of Pelagius & Gregory, both Bishops of Rome, should be Catholic and holy in the Pope? For that which so insolently John of Constantinople took unto himself, and enjoyed for a while, not long after Boniface the third earnestly took unto himself, and translated to his successors, as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca. They then have not only the thing, but the name, and so are Antichristian.
*DVR. It seemeth you have nothing to answer to Ambrose at all. WHIT. pag. 393. Have I answered nothing, when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church? was it not answer enough to show I allowed not the corrupt judgement of some Fathers? What gain you by this, if we profess freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time, who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamental points; whereas notorious corruption hath spread it self over your whole Church & consumed it, & the beginnings of corruptions in them, is grown to an height in you without hope of cure?DVR. It seemeth you haue nothing to answere to Ambrose at all. WHIT. pag. 393. Haue I answered nothing, when a few lines before I affirmed that this superstition had got great footing in the Church? was it not answere enough to shew I allowed not the corrupt iudgement of some Fathers? What gaine you by this, if we professe freely that some Fathers were infected with the errors of the time, who yet kept sound doctrine in the fundamentall points; whereas notorious corruption hath spread it selfe ouer your whole Church & cōsumed it, & the beginnings of corruptions in them, is growne to an height in you without hope of cure?
xDVR. Answer me, in what school did you learn to break down Images? not in the schools of Christians, but of Jews. WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the school of the holy Ghost, Deut 5.8. Josh. 24.23. where we are taught to worship one God with religious worship, and to cast out of the Church, to break and burn the Images of men, though never so holy. Moses beat the Calf to powder, & the holy Ghost commended Hez•••a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent, though it was set up by God• authority, when the Israelites abused it to super•••ion; how much more ought we to destroy profane Images & monuments of cursed idolatry? Epiphanius being taught in this school rent the veil which was hung up in the temple, having painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint. As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia, who took down & broke the Images of his time. I have learned this then not out of the schools of the Jews, •innike• and Idolaters, but out of the schools of Christians, which may not be polluted with Images.DVR. Answere me, in vvhat schoole did you learne to breake downe Images? not in the schooles of Christians, but of Iewes. WHIT. pag. 395. I learned it out of the schoole of the holy Ghost, Deut 5.8. Iosh. 24.23. where wee are taught to worship one God with religious worship, and to cast out of the Church, to breake and burne the Images of men, though neuer so holy. Moses beate the Calfe to powder, & the holy Ghost commended Hez•••a for breaking asunder the brazen Serpent, though it was set vp by God• authority, when the Israelits abused it to super•••ion; how much more ought we to destroy prophane Images & monuments of cursed idolatrie? Epiphanius being taught in this schoole rent the vaile which was hung vp in the temple, hauing painted innt the picture of Christ or some Saint. As also Serenus Bishop of Massilia, who tooke downe & broke the Images of his time. I haue learned this then not out of the schooles of the Iewes, •innike• and Idolaters, but out of the schooles of Christians, which may not be polluted with Images.
yDVR You show your ignorance or impudency, when you know not, or deny that which is every whereto be read among the Fathers, as in Theodoret, Domasen, Augustine, Gregory Nissen. Metaphrastes, Athanasius and others. WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather show your rashness & desire to deceive; for they are partly faired, as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius, & partly not to the purpose by them I understand that Images were made, but they prove not that they were placed in the churches & worshipped. Your reason concludeth not, There were Images among the Christians before the times of Gregory: therefore they placed them in their churches to teach the people, and to be worshipped of them with holy worship.DVR You shevv your ignorance or impudency, vvhen you knovv not, or deny that vvhich is euery vvhereto be read among the Fathers, as in Theodoret, Domasen, Augustine, Gregory Nissen. Metaphrastes, Athanasius and others. WHIT. pag. 399. These testimonies do rather shew your rashnes & desire to deceiue; for they are partly faired, as that of Gregory Nissen and Athanasius, & partly not to the purpose by them I vnderstand that Images were made, but they proue not that they were placed in the churches & worshipped. Your reason concludeth not, There were Images among the Christiās before the times of Gregory: therfore they placed them in their churches to teach the people, and to be worshipped of them with holy worship.
⟨p. 143⟩
Orations, Works, Disputations of Fathers, by which the Catholikes opinions are confirmed. Some fragments perhaps, say you, throwne in corners, which without much paines and wearines you could not collect, yet your fellowes of late yeares haue diligently sought out and published: Whilest they (say you) are to be solde at the Stationers, so long our mens bookes are in vaine prohibited: we are sorry you should write such things, as we must of necessitie restraine, your bookes are such as it behooueth vs to stoppe their passage, vnlesse we would suffer the State to be stirred to sedition, the Church in danger of heresie, and mens minds filled with cursed opinions. For if Magistrates ought carefully to preuent, lest the infection of the plague, be from other places brought into their cities; much more care is to be had, that pestilent and pernicious bookes bee nor openly spread abroad, out of which simple and vnlearned men doe sucke poyson of deadly error. Neither are we the first that haue taken this course. You may remember in Queene Maries time, that they proceeded by marshall law against all those, with whom any of our bookes were found. If this were in vs a matter worthie of death, so that we were by and by drawne to punishment, as men guiltie of high treason, and that without any iud•••al proceedings, small reason haue you to looke, that your bookes now, should haue such free libertie, to bee euery where publikelie solde. We take order, that the bookes of the holy Fathers, are brought vnto vs from euery matte, we buie them, we haue them in our priuate studies and publike Liberarie a wo• place them in open view, that they be knowns; nor onely by face, but by dailie familiaricie. Where you affirme, that neither Sanders, nor Harding, nor Allen, nor Stapleton, nor Bristol, doe more ••gerly inneigh against those dreames, then the Fatherd before mentioned:
•
•
•
⟨p. 145⟩
and others of this rancke, Fathers of worshipfull antiquitie: If all the auncient Fathers of the Church, be (as you bragge) of your side, why should Harding turne his backe so cowardly, bringing in for witnesses in a most waighty cause wherin we demaunded the iudgement of antiquitie, a company of vpstart bastards, I know not fromwhence, whom no man before had saluted, seene or heard of, passing by of purpose, the knowne and truly noble Fathers? Is this the reuerend antiquity you talke of? must wee haue these fellowes digged out of their graues, to helpe you in your desperate cause? heare me (Campian) that which Iewel then said most truly and confidently, challenging you to the triall of sixe hundred yeares antiquity, offering also to yeeld you the victory, if you brought one plaine and manifest authority, out of any Father or Councell; that same we do all professe and promise, and will surely performe it.
⟨p. 146⟩
haue conferred sometimes familiarly with To•y Matthew, and w••led him to answere freely, whether hee that read the Fathers diligently, could bee of that part which •e fauoured. Although in priuate and familiar conference wee say many things, which we would not haue further reported, or dispersed, yet I doubt not, but the worthy Mathew gaue you such an answere, as was both agreeable to the truth, and fit for his iudgement and wisdome. Wee must not in all things beleeue the Fathers, nor doth our faith depend vpon their word. Sometimes they haue erred and been the occasion of errors vnto others; yet may we reade them, & by their truthes be more learned, by the contrary more wary. And this also thinketh Matthew Hutton that famous man, whom you surmise to bee the only man amongst vs conuersant in the Fathers. And this also is all our opinions. After you haue thus finished your discourse, you will now (as you say) without feare come into the battell and fight with vs. You are still telling vs of armies, skirmishes, warres, campes and of your battailes: but you should remember that the triall of warre is common to both sides, and the issues of battailes vncerteine. The and of warre lieth in the strength of armes, not in the stoutnes of words.
IF euer that saying (a search the Scriptures) was loued, and liked of by any, which was greatly regarded and ought to be amongst vs; the holy Fathers assuredly herein excelled and exceeded: for by their labour and cost were the Bibles copied out, and conueyed to so many countries and nations of strange languages; by their great perils and torments were they deliuered from burning by the enemies, and from destruction; by their paines and teachings, haue they been throughout expounded most faithfully; they spent whole daies and nights in the study of holy Scriptures; they preached out of euery Pulpit the holy Scriptures; they enriched long volumes with holy Scriptures; with most faithful Commentaries they explained the holy Scriptures; they seasoned as well their feasting as their fasting, with holy Scriptures. And finally they exercised themselues, euen vntill crooked old age crept vpon them in holy Scriptures. And although they grounded their reasons also vpon the authority of their Auncestors, vppon the common practise of the Church, vpon the succession of Bishops, vpon generall Councels, vpon Traditions of the Apostles, vpon the bloodshedding of Martyrs, vpon the decrees of Pre•••s, vpon strange signes and marn••••us •••racles, yet their greatest desire was, especially to fill their treatises, with store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures. These they vrge, vpon these they make ⟨p. 148⟩their habitation, to these Scriptures as vnto the coateb armor of valiant souldiers, they worthily yeeld the highest and most honorable place, like noble captaines, daily desending the Catholike Church, which is the citie of God, by them kept in good repaire, against all mischeeuous assaults of her enemie: the which thing maketh me the more to maruell, at that proud and foolish exception of the aduersarie, who like one that seeketh for water in the running riuer, complaineth for the scarsity of Scriptures, where greatest store of Scriptures are alleadged. So long he saith he is content to be iudged by the Fathers as they swarue not from the Scriptures. Doth he speake as he thinketh? I will see then that these most famous writers, most auncient Fathers, and most holy men, Saint Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzen, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S.
iudgement, and wil weigh these mens trifling answere not partially, but in equall ballance; I will therefore, with a chearefull courage expect this day of battell, as one that mindeth to march forward with the nobility, & force of Christs Church, against a monkes• multitude of ragged Rogues.
*And at this day the same faith flourisheth in England, which those Fathers did had and defended.
I Cannot wel cōiecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may bee, which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere, and haue plainely prooued, that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpō. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them, vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselues. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would iumpe with you in that point, you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently, they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they haue attributed the chiefe place to these: therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sinne wee may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie, that I can hardlie discerne their scope: for what, I pray you, can bee spoken more loosely? The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will giue you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face: what a kinde of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your selfe find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you goe to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latine Church. What do they tell you? Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly. If you approue the one, you must needs reiect the other; for you cannot consent with both. Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you.
aDVR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reprove you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, who flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confess, I swerved not much from his sense. But think you the reason is of force? The ancient Fathers have diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they never erred in their interpretation. If i• hold in the Fathers, why not in others which do search the Scriptures as well as they? which if you once grant, you overturn your own cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet were there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, who either writ nothing at all, or their writings are perished; so that what they delivered, we possibly cannot know: what a vain thing is it then to brag of the consent of all, when you can hardly name twenty in the most flourishing age that ever was, whose books came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controversy can you bring against us, except it were in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gave to his Church, were men, such as might err, and who had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures.DVR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reproue you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, vvho flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confesse, I swarued not much from his sense. But thinke you the reason is of force? The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation. If i• hold in the Fathers, why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they? vvhich if you once grant, you ouerturne your owne cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, vvho either vvrit nothing at all, or their vvritings are perished; so that vvhat they deliuered, vve possibly cannot knovv: vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all, vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas, vvhose bookes came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs, except it vvere in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church, vvere men, such as might erre, and vvho had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures.
bDVR. We confess every Father may err•, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did ever fall into any error, which was contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this were not a matter of faith, whether S. Paul lied, or whether he ingenuously reproved S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, then may it be lawful for us to dissemble, and after confirm it with a lye; both which are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissentions you stand not upon, you desire to see some general, when you grant every particular may err, vvill it not follow that all may? But see an example. In the Councell of Constantinople held under Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell under Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree was again condemned. One of these certainly must needs be deceived. Again, have you forgotten that Augustine with Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did think it necessary that the Eucharist should be given to Infants? which error continued a long time in the Church. Think you these are not points of faith?DVR. VVe confesse euery Father may err•, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error, which vvas contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith, vvhether S. Paul lyed, or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble, and after confirme it vvith a lye; both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissentions you stand not vpon, you desire to see some generall, vvhen you grant euery particular may erre, vvill it not follovv that all may? But see an example. In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree vvas againe condemned. One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued. Againe, haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants? vvhich error continued a long time in the Church. Thinke you these are not points of faith?
3Gala. 2.11.
4August. & Hieron. in Epistol.
⟨p. 159⟩
the Scriptures. That therefore which is enjoined us both, to search, it ought to be the purpose of both to find out. And do you judge it equal,
that if they have erred in searching, we should tread in their steps, and reject the trueth we have found out? For wheresoever they find out the truth they sought after, we receive it and consent with them.
I know how, sayth Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. 1They euer sp••k• the tr•••, these as man haue erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conuersant in them, and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them. From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust, and our defence most equall and iust. I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations: so you will confesse they are men, extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer vs to do: then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice, and commended to our diligent search, you flie from and abhorre, as theeues doe the gallowes, ⟨p. 152⟩you abandon them out of mens sight, and yet you haue neuer done searching; for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried, mens inuentions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, fained and forged bookes, diriges, scrappes; dreames and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, cas Christ hath commaunded,3 and the ancient fathers haue done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would doe that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, vnwritten verities, the Popes Canons, wee would willingly set vp our rest there; but when wee are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, doe not much blame vs, if we so farre, as you speake, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot iustly blame that in vs which you confesse is commendable in them.d For Christ commanded vs aswell as them, to search ⟨p. 159⟩the Scriptures. That therefore which is inioyned vs both, to search, it ought to be the purpose of both to finde out. And doe you iudge it equall,e that if they haue erred in searching, wee should treade in their steps, and reiect the trueth wee haue found out? For wheresoeuer they find out the truth they sought after, wee receiue it and consent with them.
1Hieron. in Epist. ad Theophilis.
cDVR. We allow all to read the Scriptures, as many as can well and safely do it. And then we account the search good and sound, when men are able to interpret them not out of their own heads, but by the authority of the ancient Fathers. WHIT pag. 415. You show your good nature, that you will not reprove that which is well done. But may none else read the Scriptures, but men qualified as you write? then very few must spend their labour in them. But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures, not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers, yea and he commanded all whosoever to seek eternal life, and desire to know Christ, Joh. 5.39. and not the learned only.DVR. VVe allow all to read the Scriptures, as many as can vvell and safely do it. And then vve account the search good and sound, vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads, but by the authority of the auncient Fathers. WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature, that you will not reproue that which is well done. But may none else reade the Scriptures, but men qualified as you write? then very few must spend their labour in them. But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures, not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers, yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life, and desire to know Christ, Joh. 5.39. and not the learned only.
3Origen. in Isas. hom. 1.
dDVR. If you think Christ commanded all, you are greatly deceived, for how should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures? who as Augustine witnesseth must be saved, not by sharpness of understanding, but by simplicity of believing. Moreover Christ gave unto the people, Pastors and Doctors, and not the books of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people, not to the learned, and if he commanded all the Jews to search the Scriptures, why not all Christians? but that they ought, is proved by these places, Act. 17.11. Coll. 3.16. Chrysostom upon that place, Hom. 9. Hierome upon the same. Origen. in Jsaiam hom. 2. Chrysost. in Evangel. Joan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant, you take the way to keep them so. But they verily ought to have knowledge; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect. Augustine as you would have it, doth not maintain the ignorance of the people, only he requireth not of them any subtle knowledge: all must believe, which none can do without the knowledge of the Scripture, but the same quickness of understanding is not required in all. Finally Christ who gave them teachers, gave them also the Word; neither were the Pastors to teach them any thing, but the Scriptures; why then speak you thus? as if these things ordained one under another were contrary: It is worthy the observing, that in your judgement Christ gave not the Scriptures unto the people; if then they read them, they meddle with other mens right.DVR. If you thinke Christ commanded all, you are greatly deceiued, for hovv should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures? vvho as Augustine vvitnesseth must be saued, not by sharpnesse of vnderstāding, but by simplicity of beleeuing. Moreouer Christ gaue vnto the people, Pastors and Doctors, and not the bookes of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people, not to the learned, and if he commanded all the Iewes to search the Scriptures, why not all Christians? but that they ought, is proued by these places, Act. 17.11. Coll. 3.16. Chrysostome vpon that place, Hom. 9. Hierome vpon the same. Origen. in Jsaiam hom. 2. Chrysost. in Euangel. Ioan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant, you take the way to keepe them so. But they verily ought to haue knowledge; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect. Augustine as you would haue it, doth not maintaine the ignorance of the people, only he requireth not of them any subtile knowledge: all must beleeue, vvhich none can doe vvithout the knovvledge of the Scripture, but the same quicknes of vnderstanding is not required in all. Finally Christ who gaue them teachers, gaue them also the Word; neither vvere the Pastors to teach them any thing, but the Scriptures; vvhy then speake you thus? as if these things ordeined one vnder another vvere contrary: It is vvorthy the obseruing, that in your iudgement Christ gaue not the Scriptures vnto the people; if then they reade them, they meddle vvith other mens right.
eDVR. Who vvill believe that you have found out, that they could not? or who are you that accuse them of ignorance and error? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning, I am so far from accusing them of ignorance. But if the Fathers have often and greatly erred, which you must confess whether you vvill or no: why may not we, who are commanded to read the Scriptures aswvell as they, hold fast the truth we have found, and reject the errors they have delivered? who while they lived, ingenuously confessed themselves ignorant of many things, and that they erred not in a few, and would also do no less if they were alive again.DVR. VVho vvill beleeue that you haue found out, that they could not? or vvho are you that accuse them of ignorance and error? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning, I am so farre from accusing them of ignorance. But if the Fathers haue often and greatly erred, which you must confesse vvhether you vvill or no: vvhy may not vve, vvho are commanded to reade the Scriptures asvvvell as they, hold fast the truth vve haue found, and reiect the errors they haue deliuered? vvho vvhile they liued, ingenuously confessed themselues ignorant of many things, and that they erred not in a fevv, and vvould also doe no lesse if they vvere aliue againe.
who worshipped the virgin Mary with a certain new kind of worship, and condemneth all that superstition.
Ambrose inveigheth bitterly against them, who think it necessary for them, when they would go to God to use some mediators, as men do in courts of Princes, before they can be brought to the King himself, they must seek the favour of some of his near attendants.
This Deuis whosoeuer he was cannot be on your side, while you maintainef priuate Masse. For he hath described the publike communion of the whole Church, such as Christ at the first instituted, and the ancient Church euer held. The very same thing doth Iustine the Philosopher and martyr,2 who in his Apologie before Anthony the Emperour, layd open the order of discipline, which Christ held in his holy assembly. At that time the whole people receiuedg bread & wine, now with you they receiue neither.h Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter, 5and directly affirmeth that they haue like honour and authoritie with him, and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome. Therefore he must needes deest your Pope, who preferreth himselfe both in dignity ⟨p. 161⟩& authority before all other Bishops, & from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales.i Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questiō.7kThere can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image. If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images, would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion? Athanasius affirmeth,9 That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth: wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of yourl traditions. Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women,11 who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship, and condemneth all that superstition. ⟨p. 160⟩〈…〉⟨p. 161⟩〈…〉⟨image 100⟩mLet none, saith he, worship the Virgine Mary. What would he say if hee now saw not onely foolish women, but also men, and all mortall wightsn offering vp sacrifices and vowes to the Virgine Mary? 14Basil is the author, that in his dayes there was ao custome in all Churches, that the people repeated the Psalmes in the holy assemblies. But in your Churches the people canp neither heare nor vnderstand those things which are read; but are onely deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shewes.q18Nazianzene speaketh no lesse honourablie of this ciuill and sociable life, than of the solitarie life of Monkes: which ⟨image 100⟩your cloister men cannot indure.19rAmbrose enueigheth bitterly against them, who thinke it necessary for them, when they would goe to God to vse some mediatours, as men doe in courts of Princes, before they can bee brought to the King himselfe, they must seeke the fauour of some of his neere attendants.
fDVR. We Catholics neither defend nor acknowledge a private Mass•, for all Masses are said by a public Minister of the Church, in the name of the whole, and for the salvation of all the children of the Church is it offered. WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word, you defend such a Mass as the Church knew not in the days when Denis lived; for your Masses are performed by one, but the form he speaketh of, is performed by many. And what if a public Minister do it, yet that being done of one must needs be private, specially when either there are no people present, or if they be present, yet they do nothing but look on: and what profit can come to them by that he doth? as if that meat the Priest eateth feedeth the people. Besi•es Christ never ordained such an offering, himself once offered, is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church. Again, what needeth the people once to communicant with him, or what greater fruits shall they have by it, if they do? Lastly if the whole people may receive salvation from that Mass which they neither taste, see, nor yet dream of, why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith, though we be far disjoined from his body.DVR. VVe Catholikes neither defend nor acknowledge a priuate Mass•, for all Masses are said by a publike Minister of the Church, in the name of the whole, and for the saluation of all the children of the Church is it offered. WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word, you defend such a Masse as the Church knew not in the daies when Denys liued; for your Masses are performed by one, but the forme he speaketh of, is performed by many. And what if a publike Minister do it, yet that being done of one must needs be priuate, specially when either there are no people present, or if they be present, yet they do nothing but looke on: and what profit can come to them by that hee doth? as if that meate the Priest eateth feedeth the people. Besi•es Christ neuer ordained such an offering, himselfe once offered, is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church. Againe, what needeth the people once to communicant with him, or what greater fruits shall they haue by it, if they doe? Lastly if the whole people may receiue saluation from that Masse which they neither tast, see, nor yet dreame of, why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith, though we be farre disioyned from his body.
2Justin. Apol. 2.Iustin. Apol. 2.
gDVR. Jf you had but lightly read over Justine, you would never have been so impudent, for he altogether alloweth our judgement, and no where speaketh he of bread and wine given to the people. WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place, you might have seen the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say, his own words shall manifest all. They, who with us are called Deacons, give to every one that is present part of the bread, wine and water, for which thanks are given. Can any thing be said more contrary to your, and more manifest for our opinion.DVR. Jf you had but lightly read ouer Iustine, you would neuer haue been so impudent, for hee altogether alloweth our iudgement, and no vvhere speaketh he of bread and wine giuen to the people. WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place, you might haue seene the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say, his owne words shall manifest all. They, who with vs are called Deacons, giue to euery one that is present part of the bread, wine and water, for which thankes are giuen. Can any thing be said more contrary to your, and more manifest for our opinion.
hDVR. Yet Cyprian writ thus Epist. 55. The premacie is given to S. Peter that it might appear there is one Church and one chair. WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words, but Pamelius who hath corrupted Cyprian, bringing out of the margin into the text, as appeareth by ancient copies. And Gratian also observed the same, Causa. 24.9.1. loquitur.DVR. Yet Cyprian vvrit thus Epist. 55. The premacie is giuen to S. Peter that it might appeare there is one Church and one chaire. WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words, but Pamelius vvho hath corrupted Cyprian, bringing out of the margent into the text, as appeareth by auncient copies. And Gratian also obserued the same, Causa. 24.9.1. loquitur.
5Cyprian. de Simplicitat. praelat. Lib. 1. Epist. 4.
iDVR. Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeal. WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well, you shall find that he inveigheth against certain false Bishops, who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Africa for just causes, would have the causes pleaded again at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop. And in his discourse. 1. He showed that causes ought to be heard where the crimes are committed. And so not things done in Africa, at Rome. 2. He affirmeth that every Bishop hath his portion of the flock, for which he must give an account. Then not the Bishop of Rome the whole, nor the administration of all causes: finally he calleth them desperate and forlorn men, who thought the authority of the Bishops of Africa to be less then of the Bishops of other countries, and so with reproach he rejecteth the supreme authority of the Bishop of Rome. Is there here any thing less then we have affirmed?DVR. Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale. WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well, you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops, who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes, vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop. And in his discourse. 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed. And so not things done in Afrike, at Rome. 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke, for which he must giue an account. Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole, nor the administration of all causes: finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men, vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries, and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome. Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed?
7Lactan. 2. cap. 19.
kDVR. Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians, but of the Idols of the Heathen, which he condemneth because they are made of the earth: besides the Jeves had their Cherubins. WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols, but Images, such as your Church is full of, and so can there be no religion in it. Besides your Images are no more heavenly then theirs, but made of the earth as theirs, who pretended for themselves, as he writeth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do, that they worshipped not the Images, but the God, expressed by them. Further for the Cherubins, they were placed in the most holy place, into which the people might not enter, not yet look in: and show us particular precepts for yours, as they had for theirs, and we have done. But he that commanded theirs, forbiddeth every where all others.DVR. Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians, but of the Idols of the Heathen, vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth: besides the Ieves had their Cherubins. WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols, but Images, such as your Church is full of, and so can there be no religion in it. Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs, but made of the earth as theirs, who pretended for themselues, as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do, that they vvorshipped not the Images, but the God, expressed by them. Further for the Cherubins, they were placed in the most holy place, into vvhich the people might not enter, not yet looke in: and shevv vs particular precepts for yours, as they had for theirs, and vve haue done. But he that commanded theirs, forbiddeth euery vvhere all others.
9Athanas. conts a Gentas.
lDVR. VVill not all your University men account you a cosener, when Athanasius joineth the books of the Fathers with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius, say asmuch as I affirm: The Scriptures are sufficient of themselves, why do you reptoach me? but he addeth the books of the Fathers: he doth, but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures, but as Commentaries upon them. For, saith he, by reading of them a man may in some measure understand the sense of the Scripture. These words make not for you, neither against us, therefore I used neither cozening nor deceit.DVR. VVill not all your Ʋniuersity men account you a cosener, vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius, say asmuch as I affirme: The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues, vvhy do you reptoach me? but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers: he doth, but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures, but as Commentaries vpon them. For, saith he, by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture. These vvords make not for you, neither against vs, therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite.
11Epipham. lib. 3. Haeres. 79.
mDVR. Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints, but reproveth •omen for offering up sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a• to a G••ld•••e. WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honouring of Saints and not of sacrificing only; his words are plain. •et none of the Saints be adored. The word he useth signifieth to bow and prostrate our selves, and to worship one with Divine honour; which being proper to God you impiously give to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable SaintsDVR. Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints, but reproueth •omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a• to a G••ld•••e. WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only; his vvords are plaine. •et none of the Saints be adored. The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues, and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor; vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints
nDVR No C•t•o•ike doth offer up sacrifice or perform vows to the Virgin Mary. WHIT. Yet you confess you do such things to the honour of the Virgin and other Saints: I pray you what may be the meaning of this; you offer up sacrifices and vows to God in honour of the Saints? let me demand of you as Epiphanius of these women; what Scriputre •peaketh any thing of this matter? Then answer; your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary, or for her? whether soever, Epiphanius saith It is foolish, strange, and that which proceeded from the spirit of Devils Again, who knoweth not that you offer up prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints? And no man is found either so greatly covetous, or so little superstitious, but he voweth somewhat to some Saint, specially to the Virgin MaryDVR No C•t•o•ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary. WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints: I pray you what may be the meaning of this; you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints? let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women; what Scriputre •peaketh any thing of this matter? Then answere; your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary, or for her? whether soeuer, Epiphanius saith It is foolish, strange, and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe, who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints? And no man is found either so greatly couetous, or so little superst•tious, but he voweth somewhat to some Saint, specially to the Virgin Mary
14Basil. in Epist. ad Cleric Neocaesariae.
oDVR. Basil doth not say it was the custom of all Churches. WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you have not read Basil, read the place and you shall find these words there. The c••ome we now keep, is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. And he reckoneth the Churches of Egypt, Africa, Thebes, Palestine, and all who use singing of Psalms.DVR. Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches. WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil, reade the place and you shall find these words there. The c••ome we now keepe, is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt, Afrike, Thebes, Palestine, and all who vse singing of Psalmes.
pDVR. As if the public prayers of the Church did not profit the people, unless they understand the […]: what a foolish dream is this. WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dream with the Apostle, then watch with you; for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6. He that speaketh a strange tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God, vers. 6. If I come unto you speaking divers tongues, what shall I profit you? Strange tongues then profit not, unless your tongues have some more Divine power then the Apostles tongue had.DVR. As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people, vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈…〉: what a foolish dreame is this. WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle, then watch with you; for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6. He that speaketh a strange tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God, vers. 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues, what shall I profit you? Strange tongues then profit not, vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had.
qDVR. Gregory never thought so, but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition; neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians, but of that which is spent in the duties of charity. WHIT. pag. 444. I prove it easily out of his words. Hierome the Philosopher, saith he, proposed unto himself to know whether of our lives was more to be wished for, and more profitable, to the end he might make choice of it. And when he knew that every man was not borne for himself only, but for all others, who bear the same nature with him, he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life. Doth he not now prefer this life? and from the praise he giveth the other, he hath somewhat detracted, when he showeth that it is only for themselves, and so less profitable and fruitful? Finally what is a Christian life, but that which is spent in the duties of charity, for all Christians are bound unto these duties. Then notwithstanding all these, Gregory is still with us.DVR. Gregorie neuer thought so, but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition; neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians, but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity. WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words. Hierome the Philosopher, saith he, proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for, and more profitable, to the end he might make choice of it. And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only, but for all others, who beare the same nature with him, he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life. Doth he not now preferre this life? and from the praise he giueth the other, he hath somewhat detracted, when he sheweth that it is only for themselues, and so lesse profitable and fruitfull? Finally what is a Christian life, but that which is spent in the duties of charity, for all Christians are bound vnto these duties. Then notwithstanding all these, Gregorie is still with vs.
rDVR. Ambrose codemneth suffragators, not intercessors, that is, such as might inform God, what we are, not such as might commend our wants to him. WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants, without an intercessor, as what we are without a suffragator. If he do, why should the one be allowed more then the other? This new distinction of yours, I think our University men, neither know, not will acknowledge: or what is intercession but a suffragation? or what do you else desire of the Saints, but that they would speak favourably for you to God?DVR. Ambrose codemneth suffragators, not intercessors, that is, such as might informe God, what we are, not such as might commēd our vvants to him. WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants, without an intercessor, as what we are without a suffragator. If he do, why should the one be allowed more then the other? This new distinction of yours, I thinke our Vniuersity men, neither know, not wil acknowledge: or what is intercessiō but a suffragation? or what do you els desire of the Saints, but that they would speake fauourablie for you to God?
Gregory the great, though he was a Bishop of Rome, yet will he take our part against you: For tell me, doth he not touch your Pope to the quick, when peremptorily he affirmed, that whosoever should call himself the
universal Bishop, undoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome. John of Constantinople being a proud man, and very insolent, and ambitious, first challenged this unto himself: Gregory while he lived earnestly and constantly withstood him.
Doth not this thing touch you, doth not this speech draw blood of you? who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers, but first you seeke some of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you, to whom you commend the care of your businesse and requests.1sHierome did too much contemne your Pope, and other your glorious Bishops, when hee writeth that a Priest and a Bishop, by the law of God ⟨image 101⟩are all one; doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romish Church, the Bishop whereof you make not onely to be farre aboue all Priests, but also all Bishops?t Gelasius who himselfe was a Bishop of Rome, condemneth your drie and maimed supper as Sacrilegious, and strictly commandeth, 4that either the whole be receiued, or it be wholly omitted. Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all? Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from vs in his humane nature.u The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vs: but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vs, whereas you say Christ is present in both natures.* Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles,7 reade the Scriptures, and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife, the father with his children, would conferre among themselues of the ⟨p. 165⟩Scriptures. But this neither can, nor lawfully may be done in your Church, yea, it is a certaine proofe of an heretique, for any to haue the Bible in his house. What shall I say of Augustine, who in the greatest and most principall controuersies, as of grace, predestination, free will, iustification, the Scripture, the Law, the Gospel, sinne, good workes, Sacraments, and Church is wholly and fully ours. I should neuer make an end if I should pursue particulars, and collect but a little of euery thing.8 Gregory the great, though he was a Bishop of Rome, yet will he take our part against you: For tell mee, doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke, when peremptorily he affirmed, that whosoeuer should call himselfe thex vniuersall Bishop, vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome. Iohn of Constantinople being a proud man, and very insolent, and ambitious, first challenged this vnto himselfe: Gregory while hee liued earnestly and constantly withstood him.
1Hieron. Ep.
sDVR Hierome never writeth thus, but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest, and a Deacon, as was betwixt Aaron, and his sons and the Levites. Epist. ad Evagr. And if there be equality, it is in jurisdiction, not in power of order. WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely, that the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Bishop, and a Priest are all one: and this he proveth by many testimonies of the Scripture. And upon the 1. chap. to Titus, he affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is above a Priest by custom, not by Gods ordinance. And so must that be understood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle. And where you acknowledge the same jurisdiction of both by the law of God (which haply slipped from you unawares) their unequal power must needs be only by the law of man.DVR Hierome neuer vvriteth thus, but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest, and a Deacon, as was betwixt Aaron, and his sonnes and the Leuites. Epist. ad Euagr. And if there be equality, it is in iurisdiction, not in povver of order. WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely, that the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Bishop, and a Priest are all one: and this he proueth by many testimonies of the Scripture. And vpon the 1. chap. to Titus, hee affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is aboue a Priest by custome, not by Gods ordinance. And so must that be vnderstood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle. And where you acknowledge the same iurisdiction of both by the law of God (which happely slipped from you vnawares) their vnequall power must needs be only by the law of man.
tDVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all, and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it, least any of the Manichees. who superstitiously and wickedly abstained from blood, might look among the Catholics. WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answer, though your Gratian be against it. But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause, who make the Manichees the first author of the dismembering of the Supper. But whosoever did it, Gelatius censureth it thus. The division of one and the same mystery cannot be without great sacrilege. And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacrilege.DVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all, and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it, least any of the Manichies. vvho superstitiously and vvickedly abstained from blood, might looke among the Catholikes. WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answere, though your Gratian bee against it. But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause, who make the Manichies the first author of the dismembring of the Supper. But whosoeuer did it, Gelatius censureth it thus. The diuision of one and the same mystery cannot bee without great sacriledge. And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacriledge.
uDVR. Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrew from the world the visible presence of his humanity, and not the humane nature himself. WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after show the clean contrary. He therefore is with us, and not with us, because whom he left, and from whom he departed in his humanity, he hath not left, nor forsaken in his Divinity. And again, in lib. 4. contr. Eutych. when he was in the earth, he was not in heaven: and now that he is in heaven, he is not in the earth. And again: he was circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature, and not contained in a place according to his Divinity: this is the Catholic confession and faith, which the Apostles have delivered; the Martyrs have confirmed, and the faithful have kept to this day. If this be the Catholic faith, then are not you Catholics who judge far otherwise of the humanity of Christ.DVR. Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrevv from the vvorld the visible presence of his humanity, and not the humane nature himselfe. WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after shew the cleane contrary. He therfore is vvith vs, and not vvith vs, because whom he left, and from whom he departed in his humanity, he hath not left, nor forsaken in his Diuinity. And againe, in lib. 4. contr. Eutych. vvhen he vvas in the earth, hee vvas not in heauen: and novv that he is in heauen, hee is not in the earth. And againe: hee vvas circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature, and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity: this is the Catholike confession and faith, vvhich the Apostles haue deliuered; the Martyrs haue confirmed, and the faithfull haue kept to this day. If this be the Catholike faith, then are not you Catholikes vvho iudge farre othe•vvise of the humanity of Christ.
*DVR. Chrysostom, because he saw many so addicted and given to theatres, stage plays, and impious Interludes, did thus admonish them, lest they should distaste the reading of the Scriptures. WHIT pag. 458. Be it so: have you also no impious places and spectacles and profane exercises? And yet with you any thing is lawful, save reading of the Scriptures. But who so readeth Chrysostom, in Joan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloss. hom. 9. de Lazaro hom. 3. shall find that he required this simply, necessarily, and generally of all men.DVR. Chrysostome, because hee savv many so addicted and giuen to theaters, stage plaies, and impious Interludes, did thus admonish them, lest they should distast the reading of the Scriptures. WHIT pag. 458. Be it so: haue you also no impious places and spectacles and prophane exercises? And yet vvith you any thing is lawfull, saue reading of the Scriptures. But vvho so readeth Chrysostome, in Ioan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloss. hom. 9. de Lazaro hom. 3. shall find that he required this simplie, necessarily, and generally of all men.
7Chrysost ad Coloss. hom. 9. & in Joan. hom. 8.Chrysost ad Coloss. hom. 9. & in Ioan. hom. 8.
8Gregor. lib. 4. Epist. 30. & 34.
xDVR. Gregory condemned John, because he sought for such an authority over all Bishops, as the Emperor had over the Kings, who are subject unto them. WHIT. pag. 460. Whether John of Constantinople sought such a power or no; it is not certain: but no man can be ignorant, how the Pope affecteth it: And long ago hath not only got authority over the Bishops, but hath subdued the Emperor himself: which John of Constantinople never once assayed to do. Gregory telleth us what he meaneth by universal Bishop, he who endeavoureth to bring into subjection to himself all the members of Christ by the title of universal. Whereby he toucheth home your Pope, who subjecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head: neither did ever any Emperor rule more tyrannously over his Kings and vassals, then the Pope hath over the Bishops of all Churches.DVR. Gregory condemned Iohn, because he sought for such an authority ouer all Bishops, as the Emperour had ouer the Kings, vvho are subiect vnto them. WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Constantinople sought such a povver or no; it is not certaine: but no man can be ignorant, how the Pope affecteth it: And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Bishops, but hath subdued the Emperour himselfe: which Iohn of Constantin•ple neuer once assayed to do. Gregory telleth vs what he meaneth by vniuersall Bishop, he vvho endeuoureth to bring into subiection to himselfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuersall. Whereby he toucheth home your Pope, who subiecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head: neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannously ouer his Kings and vassals, then the Pope hath ouer the Bishops of all Churches.
DVR. VVho seeth not in vvhat sense th•se Bishops of Rome vvould not this name vnto themselues, though they alwaies professed them Bishops of the vniuersall and Catholike Church, and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not meane to be vnderstood of any who speake on this manner: but tell vs, is the Pope vniuersall Bishop or no? If he be, how commeth the change, that, that which was Antichristian in the Patriarke of Constantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius & Gregorie, both Bishops of Rome, should be Catholike and holy in the Pope? For that which so insolently Iohn of Constantinople tooke vnto himselfe, and enioyed for a while, not long after Boniface the third earnestly tooke vnto himselfe, and translated to his successors, as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca. They then haue not only the thing, but the name, and so are Antichristian.
