An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
I Cannot well conjecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may be, which you propound unto us. As touching the fathers we have given you your answer, and have plainly proved, that they afford no foundation for you to build your cause upon. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you judged it not safe for you to rest in them, unless you brought forth certain foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselves. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might show you esteemed their sayings as divine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would jump with you in that point, you now endeavour by certain foundations to fortify and strengthen the authority of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinews of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers have searched the Scriptures most diligently, they have heaped up store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they have attributed the chief place to these: therefore we ought to be content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sin we may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verily I profess you have laid these things down so faintly and loosely, that I can hardly discern their scope: for what, I pray you, can be spoken more loosely? The fathers have diligently laboured to understand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they have never erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will give you one example for a thousand.
that at Antioch he withstood Peter to his face: what a kind of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your self find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and haply you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you go to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome,
and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latin Church. What do they tell you? Augustine think that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thought Hierome that he spoke feignedly. If you approve the one, you must needs reject the other; for you cannot consent with both. Six hundred of this kind I could propound unto you.
I Cannot wel cōiecture, Campion, what these new foundations of the fathers may bee, which you propound vnto vs. As touching the fathers we haue giuen you your answere, and haue plainely prooued, that they affoord no foundation for you to build your cause vpō. And it is probable that you thought so your self; therefore you iudged it not safe for you to rest in them, vnlesse you brought foorth certaine foundations by which you might strengthen the fathers themselues. For after you had said what you could remember touching the fathers, that you might shew you esteemed their sayings as diuine Oracles, because you saw that was too slender, and that no man would iumpe with you in that point, you now indeuour by certaine foundations to fortifie and strengthen the authoritie of the Fathers. Now the strength, and as it were the bond and sinewes of this disputation is this ⟨p. 150⟩aThe Fathers haue searched the Scriptures most diligently, they haue heaped vp store of testimonies out of the holy Scriptures, they haue attributed the chiefe place to these: therefore wee ought to bee content with their exposition of Scriptures; and without sinne wee may desire no better. This either is the sense of this place, or else there is no sense in it. And verely I professe you haue laid these things downe so faintlie and looselie, that I can hardlie discerne their scope: for what, I pray you, can bee spoken more loosely? The fathers haue diligently laboured to vnderstand the Scriptures: therefore in their exposition of them they haue neuer erred. But we find many strange differing and dissenting expositions in the Fathers; which all may well be false, but more then one of them cannot be true. I will giue you one example for a thousand.b S. Paul writeth,3⟨p. 151⟩that at Antioch hee withstood Peter to his face: what a kinde of opposition this was you would know, but cannot of your selfe find it out. You wonder that Paul would oppose Peter, one Apostle another, and happely you suspect some mystery may be hid in it: you goe to the fathers, you enquire of Hierome, 4and of Augustine, two very famous lights of the Latine Church. What do they tell you? Augustine thinke that S. Paul spoke ingenuously and as he thoughte Hierome that he spoke fainedly. If you approue the one, you must needs reiect the other; for you cannot consent with both. Sixe hundred of this kind I could propound vnto you.
aDVR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reprove you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, who flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confess, I swerved not much from his sense. But think you the reason is of force? The ancient Fathers have diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they never erred in their interpretation. If i• hold in the Fathers, why not in others which do search the Scriptures as well as they? which if you once grant, you overturn your own cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet were there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, who either writ nothing at all, or their writings are perished; so that what they delivered, we possibly cannot know: what a vain thing is it then to brag of the consent of all, when you can hardly name twenty in the most flourishing age that ever was, whose books came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controversy can you bring against us, except it were in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gave to his Church, were men, such as might err, and who had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures.DVR. Campian doth not dispute so; but say he do, what reproue you? for he speaketh not of one Father, but of the consent of all, vvho flourished in one age, whom Saint Paul saith, Christ hath made Pastors and teachers of his Church, Eph. 4.11. WHIT. pag. 408. Then, as you confesse, I swarued not much from his sense. But thinke you the reason is of force? The auncient Fathers haue diligently read and searched the Scriptures, therefore they neuer erred in their interpretation. If i• hold in the Fathers, why not in others vvhich do search the Scriptures as vvell as they? vvhich if you once grant, you ouerturne your owne cause. And though they were Pastors of the Church, yet vvere there many other Pastors and teachers of the Church, vvho either vvrit nothing at all, or their vvritings are perished; so that vvhat they deliuered, vve possibly cannot knovv: vvhat a vaine thing is it then to bragge of the consent of all, vvhen you can hardly name tvventy in the most flourishing age that euer vvas, vvhose bookes came to our hands. Besides, the consent of all in one age in no controuersie can you bring against vs, except it vvere in the most corrupt ages. Lastly, the Pastors Christ gaue to his Church, vvere men, such as might erre, and vvho had no promise to be kept from error, if at any time they turned aside from the Scriptures.
bDVR. We confess every Father may err•, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did ever fall into any error, which was contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this were not a matter of faith, whether S. Paul lied, or whether he ingenuously reproved S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, then may it be lawful for us to dissemble, and after confirm it with a lye; both which are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissentions you stand not upon, you desire to see some general, when you grant every particular may err, vvill it not follow that all may? But see an example. In the Councell of Constantinople held under Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell under Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree was again condemned. One of these certainly must needs be deceived. Again, have you forgotten that Augustine with Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did think it necessary that the Eucharist should be given to Infants? which error continued a long time in the Church. Think you these are not points of faith?DVR. VVe confesse euery Father may err•, but we deny that all the Fathers of one age did euer fall into any error, which vvas contrary to faith. WHIT. pag. 412. As if this vvere not a matter of faith, vvhether S. Paul lyed, or vvhether he ingenuously reproued S. Peter as he professed he did. For if S. Paul did it dissemblingly, then may it be lavvfull for vs to dissemble, and after confirme it vvith a lye; both vvhich are contrary to sound doctrine. But particular dissentions you stand not vpon, you desire to see some generall, vvhen you grant euery particular may erre, vvill it not follovv that all may? But see an example. In the Councell of Constantinople held vnder Leo the Pope, the Fathers there decreed to abolish Images out of Churches. But the Nicene Councell vnder Iren. condemned this Canon, yea and by a third Councell held in Germany, this decree vvas againe condemned. One of these certeinly must needs be deceiued. Againe, haue you forgotten that Augustine vvith Innocent the Bishop of Rome, & other Bishops of the Church, did thinke it necessary that the Eucharist should be giuen to Infants? vvhich error continued a long time in the Church. Thinke you these are not points of faith?
I know how, saith Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. 1They ever sp••k• the tr•••, these as man have erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conversant in them, and spent themselves wholly in meditating upon them. From these you may discern how your accusation is most unjust, and our defence most equal and just. I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations: so you will confess they are men, extol them with all the praises you can to the very heavens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer us to do: then I doubt not but this fight would have a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his own voice, and commended to our diligent search, you fly from and abhor, as thieves do the gallows, ⟨p. 152⟩you abandon them out of mens sight, and yet you have never done searching; for you compass sea and land to find out old traditions and customs long ago dead and buried, mens inventions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, feigned and forged books, diriges, scraps; dreams and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, cas Christ hath commanded,3 and the ancient fathers have done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would do that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, unwritten verities, the Popes Canons, we would willingly set up our rest there; but when we are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, do not much blame us, if we so far, as you speak, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot justly blame that in us which you confess is commendable in them.d For Christ commanded us aswell as them, to search ⟨p. 159⟩the Scriptures. That therefore which is enjoined us both, to search, it ought to be the purpose of both to find out. And do you judge it equal,e that if they have erred in searching, we should tread in their steps, and reject the trueth we have found out? For wheresoever they find out the truth they sought after, we receive it and consent with them.
I know how, sayth Hierome, otherwise to account of the Apostles, then of other writers. 1They euer sp••k• the tr•••, these as man haue erred in some things. Yet they read the Scriptures, they were conuersant in them, and spent themselues wholly in meditating vpon them. From these you may discerne how your accusation is most vniust, and our defence most equall and iust. I desire not to diminish the fathers due and worthy commendations: so you will confesse they are men, extoll them with all the prayses you can to the very heauens, where they are now free Denizens. I could wish, that that which they constantly did, either you would do, search the Scripture, or suffer vs to do: then I doubt not but this fight would haue a good issue. But the Scriptures which Christ ratified with his owne voice, and commended to our diligent search, you flie from and abhorre, as theeues doe the gallowes, ⟨p. 152⟩you abandon them out of mens sight, and yet you haue neuer done searching; for you compasse sea and land to find out old traditions and customes long ago dead and buried, mens inuentions, decrees of Popes, the corruptions of Churches, fained and forged bookes, diriges, scrappes; dreames and fables, but the holy Scripture you touch not at all, lest, as I suppose, they would make against you. At length for shame cast away those your trifles which you so busily hunt after, and search the Scriptures, cas Christ hath commaunded,3 and the ancient fathers haue done. And would to God (as Origen writeth) we all would doe that which is written, Search the Scriptures) If we were commanded to search the fathers of the Church, vnwritten verities, the Popes Canons, wee would willingly set vp our rest there; but when wee are called from them to the diligent search of the Scriptures, doe not much blame vs, if we so farre, as you speake, subscribe to the fathers, as they agree with the Scriptures. For you cannot iustly blame that in vs which you confesse is commendable in them.d For Christ commanded vs aswell as them, to search ⟨p. 159⟩the Scriptures. That therefore which is inioyned vs both, to search, it ought to be the purpose of both to finde out. And doe you iudge it equall,
1Hieron. in Epist. ad Theophilis.
cDVR. We allow all to read the Scriptures, as many as can well and safely do it. And then we account the search good and sound, when men are able to interpret them not out of their own heads, but by the authority of the ancient Fathers. WHIT pag. 415. You show your good nature, that you will not reprove that which is well done. But may none else read the Scriptures, but men qualified as you write? then very few must spend their labour in them. But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures, not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers, yea and he commanded all whosoever to seek eternal life, and desire to know Christ, Joh. 5.39. and not the learned only.DVR. VVe allow all to read the Scriptures, as many as can vvell and safely do it. And then vve account the search good and sound, vvhen men are able to interpret them not out of their ovvne heads, but by the authority of the auncient Fathers. WHIT pag. 415. You shew your good nature, that you will not reproue that which is well done. But may none else reade the Scriptures, but men qualified as you write? then very few must spend their labour in them. But Christ commanded to search the Scriptures, not the opinions and exposition of the Fathers, yea and he commaunded all whosoeuer to seeke eternall life, and desire to know Christ, Joh. 5.39. and not the learned only.
3Origen. in Isas. hom. 1.
dDVR. If you think Christ commanded all, you are greatly deceived, for how should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures? who as Augustine witnesseth must be saved, not by sharpness of understanding, but by simplicity of believing. Moreover Christ gave unto the people, Pastors and Doctors, and not the books of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people, not to the learned, and if he commanded all the Jews to search the Scriptures, why not all Christians? but that they ought, is proved by these places, Act. 17.11. Coll. 3.16. Chrysostom upon that place, Hom. 9. Hierome upon the same. Origen. in Jsaiam hom. 2. Chrysost. in Evangel. Joan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant, you take the way to keep them so. But they verily ought to have knowledge; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect. Augustine as you would have it, doth not maintain the ignorance of the people, only he requireth not of them any subtle knowledge: all must believe, which none can do without the knowledge of the Scripture, but the same quickness of understanding is not required in all. Finally Christ who gave them teachers, gave them also the Word; neither were the Pastors to teach them any thing, but the Scriptures; why then speak you thus? as if these things ordained one under another were contrary: It is worthy the observing, that in your judgement Christ gave not the Scriptures unto the people; if then they read them, they meddle with other mens right.
And therefore, Campian, make you no doubt, we speak unfeignedly; we will subscribe to the fathers, while they consent to the Scriptures. Doth this thing please you? so it seemeth. For you say, You will see that these most ancient writers, S. Denis, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostom, S. Augustine, and S. Gregory the great, shall come forth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible. But what if they will not obey your commandment, neither serve for wages in your tents? will you compel them against their wills to bear arms in your camps? It is more then you can do: they will not endure themselves to be thus compelled or forced. You call them man by man, but they will not answer to those names: yea, both these now named by you, and all ancient fathers do proclaim open war against ⟨p. 160⟩you, and if you please, let us spend a little time in the trial of it.
And therefore, Campian, make you no doubt, we speake vnfeinedly; wee will subscribe to the fathers, while they consent to the Scriptures. Doth this thing please you? so it seemeth. For you say, You will see that these most ancient writers, S. Denys, S. Cyprian, S. Athanasius, S. Basil, S. Gregory Nazianzene, S. Ambrose, S. Hierome, S. Chrysostome, S. Augustine, and S. Gregory the great, shall come foorth well armed with the whole furniture of the bible. But what if they will not obey your commandement, neither serue for wages in your tents? will you compell them against their willes to beare armes in your campes? It is more then you can doe: they will not indure themselues to bee thus compelled or forced. You call them man by man, but they wil not answere to those names: yea, both these now named by you, and all auncient fathers doe proclaime open warre against ⟨p. 160⟩you, and if you please, let vs spend a little time in the triall of it.
This Denis whosoever he was cannot be on your side, while you maintainf private Mass. For he hath described the public communion of the whole Church, such as Christ at the first instituted, and the ancient Church ever held. The very same thing doth Justine the Philosopher and martyr,2 who in his Apology before Anthony the Emperor, laid open the order of discipline, which Christ held in his holy assembly. At that time the whole people receivedg bread & wine, now with you they receive neither.h Cyprian makes all the Apostles equal with Peter, 5and directly affirmeth that they have like honour and authority with him, and forbids all appeals to the Bishop of Rome. Therefore he must needs deest your Pope, who preferreth himself both in dignity ⟨p. 161⟩& authority before all other Bishops, & from all parts draws unto his courts all appeals.i Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without question.7kThere can be no religion wheresoever there is an image. If he now lived and saw your Churches full of images, would he acknowledge any sign of true Religion? Athanasius affirmeth,9 That the holy Scriptures given by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth: wherein with one word he hath put to slight the whole armies of yourl traditions. Epiphanius sharply reproveth certain foolish women,11 who worshipped the virgin Mary with a certain new kind of worship, and condemneth all that superstition. ⟨p. 160⟩[…] ⟨p. 161⟩[…] ⟨image 100⟩mLet none, saith he, worship the Virgin Mary. What would he say if he now saw not only foolish women, but also men, and all mortal wightsn offering up sacrifices and vows to the Virgin Mary? 14Basil is the author, that in his days there was ao custom in all Churches, that the people repeated the Psalms in the holy assemblies. But in your Churches the people canp neither hear nor understand those things which are read; but are only deluded with ridiculous gestures and pompous shows.q18Nazianzene speaketh no less honourably of this civill and sociable life, than of the solitary life of Monks: which ⟨image 100⟩your cloister men cannot endure.19rAmbrose inveigheth bitterly against them, who think it necessary for them, when they would go to God to use some mediators, as men do in courts of Princes, before they can be brought to the King himself, they must seek the favour of some of his near attendants.
This Deuis whosoeuer he was cannot be on your side, while you maintainef priuate Masse. For he hath described the publike communion of the whole Church, such as Christ at the first instituted, and the ancient Church euer held. The very same thing doth Iustine the Philosopher and martyr,2 who in his Apologie before Anthony the Emperour, layd open the order of discipline, which Christ held in his holy assembly. At that time the whole people receiuedg bread & wine, now with you they receiue neither.h Cyprian makes all the Apostles equall with Peter, 5and directly affirmeth that they haue like honour and authoritie with him, and forbids all appeales to the Bishop of Rome. Therefore he must needes deest your Pope, who preferreth himselfe both in dignity ⟨p. 161⟩& authority before all other Bishops, & from all parts drawes vnto his courts all appeales.i Lactantius writeth that it is a thing without questiō.7kThere can be no religion wheresoeuer there is an image. If hee now liued and saw your Churches full of images, would he acknowledge any signe of true Religion? Athanasius affirmeth,9 That the holy Scriptures giuen by inspiration are sufficient to instruct men in all trueth: wherein with one word hee hath put to slight the whole armies of yourl traditions. Epiphanius sharply reprooueth certaine foolish women,11 who worshipped the virgine Mary with a certaine new kind of worship, and condemneth all that superstition. ⟨p. 160⟩
fDVR. We Catholics neither defend nor acknowledge a private Mass•, for all Masses are said by a public Minister of the Church, in the name of the whole, and for the salvation of all the children of the Church is it offered. WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word, you defend such a Mass as the Church knew not in the days when Denis lived; for your Masses are performed by one, but the form he speaketh of, is performed by many. And what if a public Minister do it, yet that being done of one must needs be private, specially when either there are no people present, or if they be present, yet they do nothing but look on: and what profit can come to them by that he doth? as if that meat the Priest eateth feedeth the people. Besi•es Christ never ordained such an offering, himself once offered, is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church. Again, what needeth the people once to communicant with him, or what greater fruits shall they have by it, if they do? Lastly if the whole people may receive salvation from that Mass which they neither taste, see, nor yet dream of, why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith, though we be far disjoined from his body.DVR. VVe Catholikes neither defend nor acknowledge a priuate Mass•, for all Masses are said by a publike Minister of the Church, in the name of the whole, and for the saluation of all the children of the Church is it offered. WHIT. pag. 428. It is childish to contend about the Word, you defend such a Masse as the Church knew not in the daies when Denys liued; for your Masses are performed by one, but the forme he speaketh of, is performed by many. And what if a publike Minister do it, yet that being done of one must needs be priuate, specially when either there are no people present, or if they be present, yet they do nothing but looke on: and what profit can come to them by that hee doth? as if that meate the Priest eateth feedeth the people. Besi•es Christ neuer ordained such an offering, himselfe once offered, is the sacrifice which is profitable to the whole Church. Againe, what needeth the people once to communicant with him, or what greater fruits shall they haue by it, if they doe? Lastly if the whole people may receiue saluation from that Masse which they neither tast, see, nor yet dreame of, why will you not grant that Christ may be present to our faith, though we be farre disioyned from his body.
2Justin. Apol. 2.Iustin. Apol. 2.
gDVR. Jf you had but lightly read over Justine, you would never have been so impudent, for he altogether alloweth our judgement, and no where speaketh he of bread and wine given to the people. WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place, you might have seen the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say, his own words shall manifest all. They, who with us are called Deacons, give to every one that is present part of the bread, wine and water, for which thanks are given. Can any thing be said more contrary to your, and more manifest for our opinion.
Doth not this thing touch you, doth not this speech draw blood of you? who never ask any thing of God in your prayers, but first you seek some of the Saints to be a mediator for you, to whom you commend the care of your business and requests.1sHierome did too much contemn your Pope, and other your glorious Bishops, when he writeth that a Priest and a Bishop, by the law of God ⟨image 101⟩are all one; do you judge him worthy to be a Father of the Romish Church, the Bishop whereof you make not only to be far above all Priests, but also all Bishops?t Gelasius who himself was a Bishop of Rome, condemneth your dry and maimed supper as Sacrilegious, and strictly commandeth, 4that either the whole be received, or it be wholly omitted. Will the authority of the Pope move you no whit at all? Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from us in his humane nature.u The Son of God in his humane nature is gone from us: but in his divine nature he is always with us, whereas you say Christ is present in both natures.* Chrysostom exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles,7 read the Scriptures, and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife, the father with his children, would confer among themselves of the ⟨p. 165⟩Scriptures. But this neither can, nor lawfully may be done in your Church, yea, it is a certain proof of an heretic, for any to have the Bible in his house. What shall I say of Augustine, who in the greatest and most principal controversies, as of grace, predestination, free will, justification, the Scripture, the Law, the Gospel, sin, good works, Sacraments, and Church is wholly and fully ours. I should never make an end if I should pursue particulars, and collect but a little of every thing.8 Gregory the great, though he was a Bishop of Rome, yet will he take our part against you: For tell me, doth he not touch your Pope to the quick, when peremptorily he affirmed, that whosoever should call himself thex universal Bishop, undoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome. John of Constantinople being a proud man, and very insolent, and ambitious, first challenged this unto himself: Gregory while he lived earnestly and constantly withstood him.
Doth not this thing touch you, doth not this speech draw blood of you? who neuer aske any thing of God in your prayers, but first you seeke some of the Saints to bee a mediatour for you, to whom you commend the care of your businesse and requests.1sHierome did too much contemne your Pope, and other your glorious Bishops, when hee writeth that a Priest and a Bishop, by the law of God ⟨image 101⟩are all one; doe you iudge him worthy to bee a Father of the Romish Church, the Bishop whereof you make not onely to be farre aboue all Priests, but also all Bishops?t Gelasius who himselfe was a Bishop of Rome, condemneth your drie and maimed supper as Sacrilegious, and strictly commandeth, 4that either the whole be receiued, or it be wholly omitted. Will the authoritie of the Pope moue you no whit at all? Vigilius writeth that Christ is departed from vs in his humane nature.u The Sonne of God in his humane nature is gone from vs: but in his diuine nature hee is alwayes with vs, whereas you say Christ is present in both natures.* Chrysostome exhorteth lay men and all the people that they would get them Bibles,7 reade the Scriptures, and that at home in their houses the husband with the wife, the father with his children, would conferre among themselues of the ⟨p. 165⟩Scriptures. But this neither can, nor lawfully may be done in your Church, yea, it is a certaine proofe of an heretique, for any to haue the Bible in his house. What shall I say of Augustine, who in the greatest and most principall controuersies, as of grace, predestination, free will, iustification, the Scripture, the Law, the Gospel, sinne, good workes, Sacraments, and Church is wholly and fully ours. I should neuer make an end if I should pursue particulars, and collect but a little of euery thing.8 Gregory the great, though he was a Bishop of Rome, yet will he take our part against you: For tell mee, doth hee not touch your Pope to the quicke, when peremptorily he affirmed, that whosoeuer should call himselfe the
1Hieron. Ep.
sDVR Hierome never writeth thus, but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest, and a Deacon, as was betwixt Aaron, and his sons and the Levites. Epist. ad Evagr. And if there be equality, it is in jurisdiction, not in power of order. WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely, that the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Bishop, and a Priest are all one: and this he proveth by many testimonies of the Scripture. And upon the 1. chap. to Titus, he affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is above a Priest by custom, not by Gods ordinance. And so must that be understood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle. And where you acknowledge the same jurisdiction of both by the law of God (which haply slipped from you unawares) their unequal power must needs be only by the law of man.DVR Hierome neuer vvriteth thus, but affirmeth that there is the like difference betwixt a Bishop a Priest, and a Deacon, as was betwixt Aaron, and his sonnes and the Leuites. Epist. ad Euagr. And if there be equality, it is in iurisdiction, not in povver of order. WHIT. pag. 447. It is strange that you deny that which Hierome directly affirmeth in the beginning of the same Epistle namely, that the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Bishop, and a Priest are all one: and this he proueth by many testimonies of the Scripture. And vpon the 1. chap. to Titus, hee affirmeth plainly that a Bishop is aboue a Priest by custome, not by Gods ordinance. And so must that be vnderstood you bring out of the forenamed Epistle. And where you acknowledge the same iurisdiction of both by the law of God (which happely slipped from you vnawares) their vnequall power must needs be only by the law of man.
tDVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all, and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it, least any of the Manichees. who superstitiously and wickedly abstained from blood, might look among the Catholics. WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answer, though your Gratian be against it. But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause, who make the Manichees the first author of the dismembering of the Supper. But whosoever did it, Gelatius censureth it thus. The division of one and the same mystery cannot be without great sacrilege. And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacrilege.DVR Leo the Pope did decree this first of all, and Gelatius the fourth after him confirmed it, least any of the Manichies. vvho superstitiously and vvickedly abstained from blood, might looke among the Catholikes. WHIT pag. 451. I will accept your answere, though your Gratian bee against it. But who seeth not what a goodly patron you are of the popish cause, who make the Manichies the first author of the dismembring of the Supper. But whosoeuer did it, Gelatius censureth it thus. The diuision of one and the same mystery cannot bee without great sacriledge. And so by a Pope is the whole Popish Church condemned of sacriledge.
And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople, and given to the Bishop of Rome. Leave trifling, Campian, and even tell me plainly,y if that name in the Bishop of ⟨p. 166⟩Constantinople was a sign of the approaching of Antichrist, why may we not judge it in the Bishop of Rome, a notable ensign of the same Antichrist? now I have given you a taste by which you may judge other things: you must either get you other fathers, or for all these you must needs yield as overcome. Do we at length speak without riddles? what is it you else desire of us? wherefore Campian, get you into this camp, and show forth all your valour: you shall verily find you have to deal, not with naked and unarmed beggars, but with well appointed and well harnessed adversaries.
And within a while after this title was taken from the Bishop of Constantinople, and giuen to the Bishop of Rome. Leaue trifling, Campian, and euen tell me plainely,y if that name in the Bishop of ⟨p. 166⟩Constantinople was a signe of the approching of Antichrist, why may wee not iudge it in the Bishop of Rome, a notable ensigne of the same Antichrist? now I haue giuen you a taste by which you may iudge other things: you must either get you other fathers, or for all these you must needes yeeld as ouercome. Doe wee at length speake without riddles? what is it you els desire of vs? wherefore Campian, get you into this campe, and shew forth all your valour: you shall verily finde you haue to deale, not with naked and vnarmed beggars, but with well appointed and well harnessed aduersaries.
yDVR. Who seeth not in what sense th•se Bishops of Rome would not this name unto themselves, though they always professed them Bishops of the universal and Catholic Church, and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not mean to be understood of any who speak on this manner: but tell us, is the Pope universal Bishop or no? If he be, how cometh the change, that, that which was Antichristian in the Patriarch of Constantinople by the judgement of Pelagius & Gregory, both Bishops of Rome, should be Catholic and holy in the Pope? For that which so insolently John of Constantinople took unto himself, and enjoyed for a while, not long after Boniface the third earnestly took unto himself, and translated to his successors, as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca. They then have not only the thing, but the name, and so are Antichristian.DVR. VVho seeth not in vvhat sense th•se Bishops of Rome vvould not this name vnto themselues, though they alwaies professed them Bishops of the vniuersall and Catholike Church, and the Vicars of Christ. WHIT pag. 463. It seemeth you did not meane to be vnderstood of any who speake on this manner: but tell vs, is the Pope vniuersall Bishop or no? If he be, how commeth the change, that, that which was Antichristian in the Patriarke of Constantinople by the iudgement of Pelagius & Gregorie, both Bishops of Rome, should be Catholike and holy in the Pope? For that which so insolently Iohn of Constantinople tooke vnto himselfe, and enioyed for a while, not long after Boniface the third earnestly tooke vnto himselfe, and translated to his successors, as saith Platina in vita Bonifac. 3. & Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. Vispergensis in Phoca. They then haue not only the thing, but the name, and so are Antichristian.
The ancient Histories of former times, do plainly discover the true form of the Primitive Church, thither do I appeal: as for the ancient Historiographers,1 whose authority all the adversaries do sometime usurp, these are well nigh all of them. Eusebius, Damasus, Hierome, Ruffinus, Orosas, Socrates, Sozomenus, Theodoretus, Cassiodorus, Gregory of Tours, Oswaldus, Regino, Marianus, Sigibertus, Sonoras, Cedrenus, Nicephorus. ⟨p. 167⟩What song, I pray you, do these men sing? a song in praise of Catholics of their prosperous proceedings, of their interchangeable alterations, & what enemies they had; yea moreover (which I would have you well to mark) these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake,2 to wit, Philip Melanchthon, Pantalion, Functius, and the Magdeburgeans, when they went about, to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiastical History, they should have had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. years after Christ, except they had gathered together the acts of those men, that take our part, and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church. Consider also the particular Historiographers of some special countries,3 who bended themselves curiously and busily to search out the special affairs of every such people as they undertook to write of. These as men desirous by all means they possibly could to enrich and beautify that work they had in hand, omitted not so much as banqueting feasts, or long sleeved coats, or strange hafts of daggers, or gilded spurs, and such like trifles, but they made mention thereof, if it had any smack of novelty. These men doubtless, if there had been any alteration in religion, or any digression, from their former faith, which was in the Primitive Church, that had come to their ears, many of them would have recorded it: if not many, yet some few of them at the least; if not some few, yet some one or other doubtless would have made mention thereof.* But no body at all, neither friend nor foe, made any muttering, or gave any inkling of any such matter. As for example sake, the adversaries grant (because they cannot otherwise choose) that the Church of Rome, was once an holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, even then when it deserved these commendations ofa S. Paul, Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. I cease not to remember you in my prayers.
THe auncient Histories of former times, do plainly discouer the true forme of the Primitiue Church, thither doe I appeale: as for the auncient Historiographers,1 whose authority all the aduersaries doe sometime vsurpe, these are well nigh all of them. Eusebius, Damasus, Hierome, Ruffinus, Orosas, Socrates, Sozomenus, Theodoretus, Cassiodorus, Gregory of Tours, Oswaldus, Regino, Marianus, Sigibertus, Sonoras, Cedrenus, Nicephorus. ⟨p. 167⟩What song, I pray you, doe these men sing? a song in praise of Catholikes of their prosperous proceedings, of their interchangeable alterations, & what enemies they had; yea moreouer (which I would haue you wel to mark) these men which are our daily enemies for our Religion sake,2 to wit, Philip Melangthon, Pantalion, Functius, and the Magdeburgeans, when they went about, to write either Chronicle or Ecclesiasticall History, they should haue had nothing at all to write of for the space of 1500. yeares after Christ, except they had gathered together the acts of those men, that take our part, and put in writing the treacheries and outrages of the enemies of our Church. Consider also the particular Historiographers of some speciall countries,3 who bended themselues curiously and busily to search out the speciall affaires of euery such people as they vndertooke to write of. These as men desirous by all meanes they possibly could to enrich and beautifie that worke they had in hand, omitted not so much as banquetting feasts, or long sleeued coates, or strange haftes of daggers, or gilded spurres, and such like trifles, but they made mention thereof, if it had any smacke of noueltie. These men doubtlesse, if there had been any alteration in religion, or any digression, from their former faith, which was in the Primitiue Church, that had come to their eares, many of thē would haue recorded it: if not many, yet some few of them at the least; if not some few, yet some one or other doubtlesse would haue made mention thereof.* But no body at all, neither friend nor foe, made any muttering, or gaue any inkling of any such matter. As for example sake, the aduersaries grant (because they cannot otherwise chuse) that the Church of Rome, was once an holy Catholike and Apostolike Church, euen then when it deserued these commendations ofa S. Paul, Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. I cease not to remember you in my prayers.
1Generals Historici.Generales Historici.
2Hareticorū Chronica & Historica. Anno Dom. 1500.Hareticorū Chronica & Historica. Anno Dom. 1500.
3Historici certarum Gentium.
*This is false, for many have made mention of the corruption of the Church.This is false, for many haue made mention of the corruption of the Church.
Ib know that when I come ⟨p. 168⟩unto you; I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of cChrist. All the Churches of Christ do greet you, for your obedience is spread abroad in all places. Then also, when S. Paul having freed liberty of the prison, there preached the Gospel abroad. Then also, when S. Peter governed the Church, gathered together long ago in that City of Rome, which he called by thee name of Babylon.* The when that same S. fClement, whom theg Apostle so highly commendeth, was chief head of that Church: then also, whenh Heathen Emperors, as Domitian, Nero, Trajan, and Antonius most cruelly murdered the Bishops of Rome. Then also,* Calvin himself doth witness,* when Damasus, Syticius, Anastasius, and Innocentius were governors of the Sea Apostolic. For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swerved, especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospel. At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul? when fainted faith which before so flourished? In what age, under what Pole, upon what occasion, by whose compulsion, by whose power, hath a new strange Religion invaded, not only that city of Rome, but the whole world besides? what outcries, what rufflings, what weeping and wailing hath it caused? were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleep, while Rome, I say, Rome brought forth new Sacraments, new sacrifice, and new doctrine of religion? There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greek, neither abroad nor at home, which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his books of so notable a matter, though it had been never so slenderly. Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough, if the History which is a faithful witness of antiquity, and the life of memory, do in many and sundry places copiously entreat and spoke of that faith which we profess: and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirm, that, that faith which the adversaries ⟨p. 169⟩do thrust upon us, was […] allowed in the Catholic Church; then are all the Historiographers on our part, and the invasions of the adversaries are not frivolous, and such as can make no man afraid, except it be first granted, that all Christians throughout every age, have fallen to gross infidelity and consequently into the deep pit of hell;
Ib know that when I come ⟨p. 168⟩vnto you; I shall come in the abundance of the blessings of cChrist. All the Churches of Christ do greet you, for your obedience is spread abroad in all places. Then also, when S. Paul hauing freed liberty of the prison, there preached the Gospell abroad. Then also, when S. Peter gouerned the Church, gathered together long agoe in that Citie of Rome, which hee called by thee name of Babylon.* The whē that same S. fClement, whom theg Apostle so highly commendeth, was chiefe head of that Church: then also, whenh Heathen Emperours, as Domitian, Nero, Traiane, and Antonius most cruelly murthered the Bishops of Rome. Then also,* Caluin himselfe doth witnes,* when Damasus, Syticius, Anastasius, and Innocentius were gouernours of the Sea Apostolike. For at this time he freely confesseth that men nothing swarued, especially at Rome from the true doctrine of the Gospell. At what time then hath Rome lost this faith so highly commended by S. Paul? when fainted faith which before so flourished? In what age, vnder what Pole, vpon what occasion, by whose compulsion, by whose power, hath a new strange Religion inuaded, not only that citie of Rome, but the whole world besides? what outcries, what rufflings, what weeping and wailing hath it caused? were all men in all the world besides in a dead sleepe, while Rome, I say, Rome brought forth new Sacraments, new sacrifice, and new doctrine of religion? There hath not been found any one Historiographer either Latin or Greeke, neither abroad nor at home, which hath vouchsafed so much as to make a little note in his bookes of so notable a matter, though it had been neuer so slenderly. Wherefore this is a matter manifest enough, if the Historie which is a faithfull witnes of antiquity, and the life of memory, do in many and sundry places copiously entreate and spoake of that faith which we professe: and if no History at all since the creation of the world do affirme, that, that faith which the aduersaries
Now you call us to History, the witness of times and reporter of Antiquity: and all that have taken pains in publishing the Ecclesiastical History, their names you set down, and like dumb shows, you carry them in great pomp: as though, Campian, the particular naming of all that have published any History were sufficient for the remembrance, and searching out the monuments of Antiquity. What insolent new kind of Logic is this, to reckon up the Historians of the whole world, and of particular countries, and then conclude they are your own? Have you of late from above procured this privilege, that whatsoever you lay your hands upon, shall by and by become yours? we have long since perused the ancient Chronicles, wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set ⟨p. 170⟩down, and we find not that they favour you more then us. If in them be some things against us, many moe, and more weighty testimonies they have against you, and such as give you a deadly wound; else would we never have collected the Histories of the ancient Church so accurately, and diligently, penning them exactly, and distinguishing the several ages and times; neither would we have published them in the world, if they were so contrary unto us, as you surmise: for who have taken more pains to find out, or more faithfully restored the Ecclesiastical Histories, then our men, without whose labours many monuments of Antiquity had been buried in darkness? We therefore will never deny this trial of Antiquity, and seeing you appeal to ancient Histories, we condescend; yet with this caution, that we be not tied to those things which were apparently blemishes in the ancient Church. Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a narration of things done, do not so much teach us what ought to be done, but have an eye to that which was then performed, and by that means set down many things worthy of reprehension, rather than imitation: and for the most part it happens, that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ; and ever the later writer the more corrupt. But here you exclaim that we seek evasions, and very perversely you slander us, that because we do not allow all, we refuse all. They that reform what is amiss, do not blame the rest that is not faulty.
NOw you call vs to Historie, the witnes of times and reporter of Antiquity: and all that haue taken paines in publishing the Ecclesiasticall Historie, their names you set downe, and like dumbe showes, you carry them in great pompe: as though, Campian, the particular naming of all that haue published any Historie were sufficient for the remembrance, and searching out the monuments of Antiquitie. What insolent new kind of Logicke is this, to recken vp the Historians of the whole world, and of particular countries, and then conclude they are your owne? Haue you of late from aboue procured this priuiledge, that whatsoeuer you lay your hands vpon, shall by and by become yours? we haue long since perused the auncient Chronicles, wherein the beginning and proceeding of the Church is set ⟨p. 170⟩downe, and we find not that they fauour you more then vs. If in them be some things against vs, many moe, and more waightie testimonies they haue against you, and such as giue you a deadlie wound; else would wee neuer haue collected the Histories of the auncient Church so accuratelie, and diligentlie, penning them exactlie, and distinguishing the seuerall ages and times; neither would wee haue published them in the world, if they were so contrarie vnto vs, as you surmise: for who haue taken more paines to finde out, or more faithfullie restored the Ecclesiasticall Histories, then our men, without whose labours many monuments of Antiquitie had been buried in darlinesse? We therefore will neuer denie this triall of Antiquitie, and seeing you appeale to auncient Histories, wee condiscend; yet with this caution, that we be not tied to those things which were apparantly blemishes in the auncient Church. Especially seeing that writers of Histories intending to make a natration of things done, doe not so much teach vs what ought to bee done, but haue an eye to that which was then performed, and by that meanes set downe many things worthie of reprehension, rather than imitation: and for the most part it happens, that Historiographers are possessed with the errors of the times wherein they writ; and euer the later writer the more corrupt. But here you exclaime that wee seeke euasions, and very peruersly you slaunder vs, that because wee doe not allowe all, wee refuse all. They that reforme what is amisse, doe not blame the rest that is not faultie.
Strive while you list (Campian) and cry out of mazes and labyrinths, at length will you, nill you, by the cares must we bring you to the judgement of the Scriptures.
Striue while you list (Campian) and crie out of mazes and labyrinths, at length will you, nill you, by the cares must wee bring you to the iudgement of the Scriptures.
that if they haue erred in searching, wee should treade in their steps, and reiect the trueth wee haue found out? For wheresoeuer they find out the truth they sought after, wee receiue it and consent with them.
DVR. If you thinke Christ commanded all, you are greatly deceiued, for hovv should the rude and ignorant search the Scriptures? vvho as Augustine vvitnesseth must be saued, not by sharpnesse of vnderstāding, but by simplicity of beleeuing. Moreouer Christ gaue vnto the people, Pastors and Doctors, and not the bookes of the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 417. Christ verily spake to the people, not to the learned, and if he commanded all the Iewes to search the Scriptures, why not all Christians? but that they ought, is proued by these places, Act. 17.11. Coll. 3.16. Chrysostome vpon that place, Hom. 9. Hierome vpon the same. Origen. in Jsaiam hom. 2. Chrysost. in Euangel. Ioan. hom. 13. Further if the people be ignorant, you take the way to keepe them so. But they verily ought to haue knowledge; and you very learnedly make an argument from their defect. Augustine as you would haue it, doth not maintaine the ignorance of the people, only he requireth not of them any subtile knowledge: all must beleeue, vvhich none can doe vvithout the knovvledge of the Scripture, but the same quicknes of vnderstanding is not required in all. Finally Christ who gaue them teachers, gaue them also the Word; neither vvere the Pastors to teach them any thing, but the Scriptures; vvhy then speake you thus? as if these things ordeined one vnder another vvere contrary: It is vvorthy the obseruing, that in your iudgement Christ gaue not the Scriptures vnto the people; if then they reade them, they meddle vvith other mens right.
eDVR. Who vvill believe that you have found out, that they could not? or who are you that accuse them of ignorance and error? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning, I am so far from accusing them of ignorance. But if the Fathers have often and greatly erred, which you must confess whether you vvill or no: why may not we, who are commanded to read the Scriptures aswvell as they, hold fast the truth we have found, and reject the errors they have delivered? who while they lived, ingenuously confessed themselves ignorant of many things, and that they erred not in a few, and would also do no less if they were alive again.DVR. VVho vvill beleeue that you haue found out, that they could not? or vvho are you that accuse them of ignorance and error? WHIT. pag. 423. I verily acknowledge that the Fathers excelled in all kind of learning, I am so farre from accusing them of ignorance. But if the Fathers haue often and greatly erred, which you must confesse vvhether you vvill or no: vvhy may not vve, vvho are commanded to reade the Scriptures asvvvell as they, hold fast the truth vve haue found, and reiect the errors they haue deliuered? vvho vvhile they liued, ingenuously confessed themselues ignorant of many things, and that they erred not in a fevv, and vvould also doe no lesse if they vvere aliue againe.
Ambrose enueigheth bitterly against them, who thinke it necessary for them, when they would goe to God to vse some mediatours, as men doe in courts of Princes, before they can bee brought to the King himselfe, they must seeke the fauour of some of his neere attendants.
DVR. Jf you had but lightly read ouer Iustine, you would neuer haue been so impudent, for hee altogether alloweth our iudgement, and no vvhere speaketh he of bread and wine giuen to the people. WHIT. pag. 430. If you had read the place, you might haue seene the contrary to your opinion and to all that you say, his owne words shall manifest all. They, who with vs are called Deacons, giue to euery one that is present part of the bread, wine and water, for which thankes are giuen. Can any thing be said more contrary to your, and more manifest for our opinion.
hDVR. Yet Cyprian writ thus Epist. 55. The premacie is given to S. Peter that it might appear there is one Church and one chair. WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words, but Pamelius who hath corrupted Cyprian, bringing out of the margin into the text, as appeareth by ancient copies. And Gratian also observed the same, Causa. 24.9.1. loquitur.DVR. Yet Cyprian vvrit thus Epist. 55. The premacie is giuen to S. Peter that it might appeare there is one Church and one chaire. WHIT. pag. 433. They are not Cyprians words, but Pamelius vvho hath corrupted Cyprian, bringing out of the margent into the text, as appeareth by auncient copies. And Gratian also obserued the same, Causa. 24.9.1. loquitur.
5Cyprian. de Simplicitat. praelat. Lib. 1. Epist. 4.
iDVR. Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeal. WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well, you shall find that he inveigheth against certain false Bishops, who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Africa for just causes, would have the causes pleaded again at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop. And in his discourse. 1. He showed that causes ought to be heard where the crimes are committed. And so not things done in Africa, at Rome. 2. He affirmeth that every Bishop hath his portion of the flock, for which he must give an account. Then not the Bishop of Rome the whole, nor the administration of all causes: finally he calleth them desperate and forlorn men, who thought the authority of the Bishops of Africa to be less then of the Bishops of other countries, and so with reproach he rejecteth the supreme authority of the Bishop of Rome. Is there here any thing less then we have affirmed?DVR. Cyprian in this place speaketh not at all touching any appeale. WHIT. pag. 434. If you consider the place well, you shall find that he inueigheth against certaine false Bishops, who being condemned by the voices and censures of the Bishops of Afrike for iust causes, vvould haue the causes pleaded againe at Rome before Cornelius the Bishop. And in his discourse. 1. He shevved that causes ought to be heard vvhere the crimes are committed. And so not things done in Afrike, at Rome. 2. He affirmeth that euery Bishop hath his portion of the flocke, for which he must giue an account. Then not the Bishop of Rome the vvhole, nor the administration of all causes: finally he calleth them desperate and forlorne men, vvho thought the authority of the Bishops of Afrike to bee lesse then of the Bishops of other countries, and so vvith reproach hee reiecteth the supreame authoritie of the Bishop of Rome. Is there heere any thing lesse then vve haue affirmed?
7Lactan. 2. cap. 19.
kDVR. Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians, but of the Idols of the Heathen, which he condemneth because they are made of the earth: besides the Jeves had their Cherubins. WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols, but Images, such as your Church is full of, and so can there be no religion in it. Besides your Images are no more heavenly then theirs, but made of the earth as theirs, who pretended for themselves, as he writeth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do, that they worshipped not the Images, but the God, expressed by them. Further for the Cherubins, they were placed in the most holy place, into which the people might not enter, not yet look in: and show us particular precepts for yours, as they had for theirs, and we have done. But he that commanded theirs, forbiddeth every where all others.DVR. Lactantius speaketh not of the Images of Christians, but of the Idols of the Heathen, vvhich he condemneth because they are made of the earth: besides the Ieves had their Cherubins. WHIT. pag. 436. He nameth not Idols, but Images, such as your Church is full of, and so can there be no religion in it. Besides your Images are no more heauenly then theirs, but made of the earth as theirs, who pretended for themselues, as he vvriteth lib. 2. cap. 2. as you do, that they vvorshipped not the Images, but the God, expressed by them. Further for the Cherubins, they were placed in the most holy place, into vvhich the people might not enter, not yet looke in: and shevv vs particular precepts for yours, as they had for theirs, and vve haue done. But he that commanded theirs, forbiddeth euery vvhere all others.
9Athanas. conts a Gentas.
lDVR. VVill not all your University men account you a cosener, when Athanasius joineth the books of the Fathers with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius, say asmuch as I affirm: The Scriptures are sufficient of themselves, why do you reptoach me? but he addeth the books of the Fathers: he doth, but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures, but as Commentaries upon them. For, saith he, by reading of them a man may in some measure understand the sense of the Scripture. These words make not for you, neither against us, therefore I used neither cozening nor deceit.DVR. VVill not all your Ʋniuersity men account you a cosener, vvhen Athanasius ioyneth the bookes of the Fathers with the Scriptures. WHIT. pag. 438. If Athanasius, say asmuch as I affirme: The Scriptures are sufficient of themselues, vvhy do you reptoach me? but he addeth the bookes of the Fathers: he doth, but not as traditions differing from the Scriptures, but as Commentaries vpon them. For, saith he, by reading of them a man may in some measure vnderstand the sense of the Scripture. These vvords make not for you, neither against vs, therefore I vsed neither cosening nor disceite.
11Epipham. lib. 3. Haeres. 79.
mDVR. Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints, but reproveth •omen for offering up sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a• to a G••ld•••e. WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honouring of Saints and not of sacrificing only; his words are plain. •et none of the Saints be adored. The word he useth signifieth to bow and prostrate our selves, and to worship one with Divine honour; which being proper to God you impiously give to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable SaintsDVR. Epiphanius speaketh nothing of the adoring of the Saints, but reproueth •omen for offering vp sacrifices to the Virgin Mary a• to a G••ld•••e. WHIT. pag. 440. Nay he speaketh against the adoration and honoring of Saints and not of sacrificing only; his vvords are plaine. •et none of the Saints be adored. The vvord he vseth signifieth to bovv and prostrate our selues, and to vvorship one vvith Diuine honor; vvhich being proper to God you impiously giue to the Virgin Mary and to other innumerable Saints
nDVR No C•t•o•ike doth offer up sacrifice or perform vows to the Virgin Mary. WHIT. Yet you confess you do such things to the honour of the Virgin and other Saints: I pray you what may be the meaning of this; you offer up sacrifices and vows to God in honour of the Saints? let me demand of you as Epiphanius of these women; what Scriputre •peaketh any thing of this matter? Then answer; your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary, or for her? whether soever, Epiphanius saith It is foolish, strange, and that which proceeded from the spirit of Devils Again, who knoweth not that you offer up prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints? And no man is found either so greatly covetous, or so little superstitious, but he voweth somewhat to some Saint, specially to the Virgin MaryDVR No C•t•o•ike doth offer vp sacrifice or performe vowes to the Virgin Mary. WHIT. Yet you confesse you do such things to the honor of the Virgin and other Saints: I pray you what may be the meaning of this; you offer vp sacrifices and vowes to God in honor of the Saints? let me demaund of you as Epiphanius of these women; what Scriputre •peaketh any thing of this matter? Then answere; your Masses are they offered to the Virgin Mary, or for her? whether soeuer, Epiphanius saith It is foolish, strange, and that vvhich proceeded from the spirit of Diuels Againe, who knoweth not that you offer vp prayers and intercessions to the Virgin Mary and all Saints? And no man is found either so greatly couetous, or so little superst•tious, but he voweth somewhat to some Saint, specially to the Virgin Mary
14Basil. in Epist. ad Cleric Neocaesariae.
oDVR. Basil doth not say it was the custom of all Churches. WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you have not read Basil, read the place and you shall find these words there. The c••ome we now keep, is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. And he reckoneth the Churches of Egypt, Africa, Thebes, Palestine, and all who use singing of Psalms.DVR. Basil doth not say it was the custome of all Churches. WHIT. pag. 442. It seemeth you haue not read Basil, reade the place and you shall find these words there. The c••ome we now keepe, is consonant and agreeable to all the Churches of God. And he reckoneth the Churches of Aegypt, Afrike, Thebes, Palestine, and all who vse singing of Psalmes.
pDVR. As if the public prayers of the Church did not profit the people, unless they understand the […]: what a foolish dream is this. WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dream with the Apostle, then watch with you; for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6. He that speaketh a strange tongue, speaketh not unto men, but unto God, vers. 6. If I come unto you speaking divers tongues, what shall I profit you? Strange tongues then profit not, unless your tongues have some more Divine power then the Apostles tongue had.DVR. As if the publike prayers of the Church did not profit the people, vnlesse they vnderstand the 〈…〉: what a foolish dreame is this. WHIT. pag. 443. We had rather dreame with the Apostle, then watch with you; for thus S. Paul speaketh 1. Cor. 14 4.5.6. He that speaketh a strange tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God, vers. 6. If I come vnto you speaking diuers tongues, what shall I profit you? Strange tongues then profit not, vnlesse your tongues haue some more Diuine power then the Apostles tongue had.
qDVR. Gregory never thought so, but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition; neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians, but of that which is spent in the duties of charity. WHIT. pag. 444. I prove it easily out of his words. Hierome the Philosopher, saith he, proposed unto himself to know whether of our lives was more to be wished for, and more profitable, to the end he might make choice of it. And when he knew that every man was not borne for himself only, but for all others, who bear the same nature with him, he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life. Doth he not now prefer this life? and from the praise he giveth the other, he hath somewhat detracted, when he showeth that it is only for themselves, and so less profitable and fruitful? Finally what is a Christian life, but that which is spent in the duties of charity, for all Christians are bound unto these duties. Then notwithstanding all these, Gregory is still with us.DVR. Gregorie neuer thought so, but in the same place he commendeth the solitary life as more excellent then any humane condition; neither speaketh he of the common life of Christians, but of that vvhich is spent in the duties of charity. WHIT. pag. 444. I proue it easily out of his words. Hierome the Philosopher, saith he, proposed vnto himselfe to know whether of our liues vvas more to be vvished for, and more profitable, to the end he might make choice of it. And when he knew that euery man was not borne for himselfe only, but for all others, who beare the same nature with him, he embraced this common life rather then that solitary life. Doth he not now preferre this life? and from the praise he giueth the other, he hath somewhat detracted, when he sheweth that it is only for themselues, and so lesse profitable and fruitfull? Finally what is a Christian life, but that which is spent in the duties of charity, for all Christians are bound vnto these duties. Then notwithstanding all these, Gregorie is still with vs.
rDVR. Ambrose codemneth suffragators, not intercessors, that is, such as might inform God, what we are, not such as might commend our wants to him. WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants, without an intercessor, as what we are without a suffragator. If he do, why should the one be allowed more then the other? This new distinction of yours, I think our University men, neither know, not will acknowledge: or what is intercession but a suffragation? or what do you else desire of the Saints, but that they would speak favourably for you to God?DVR. Ambrose codemneth suffragators, not intercessors, that is, such as might informe God, what we are, not such as might commēd our vvants to him. WHIT. pag. 446. As if God did not know as well our wants, without an intercessor, as what we are without a suffragator. If he do, why should the one be allowed more then the other? This new distinction of yours, I thinke our Vniuersity men, neither know, not wil acknowledge: or what is intercessiō but a suffragation? or what do you els desire of the Saints, but that they would speake fauourablie for you to God?
vniuersall Bishop, vndoubtedly was the forerunner of Antichrist? Touching which title there hath been deadly hatred and bloody contentions betwixt the Bishops of Constantinople and Rome. Iohn of Constantinople being a proud man, and very insolent, and ambitious, first challenged this vnto himselfe: Gregory while hee liued earnestly and constantly withstood him.
uDVR. Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrew from the world the visible presence of his humanity, and not the humane nature himself. WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after show the clean contrary. He therefore is with us, and not with us, because whom he left, and from whom he departed in his humanity, he hath not left, nor forsaken in his Divinity. And again, in lib. 4. contr. Eutych. when he was in the earth, he was not in heaven: and now that he is in heaven, he is not in the earth. And again: he was circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature, and not contained in a place according to his Divinity: this is the Catholic confession and faith, which the Apostles have delivered; the Martyrs have confirmed, and the faithful have kept to this day. If this be the Catholic faith, then are not you Catholics who judge far otherwise of the humanity of Christ.DVR. Vigilius meaneth that Christ withdrevv from the vvorld the visible presence of his humanity, and not the humane nature himselfe. WHIT. pag. 453. But the words that follow after shew the cleane contrary. He therfore is vvith vs, and not vvith vs, because whom he left, and from whom he departed in his humanity, he hath not left, nor forsaken in his Diuinity. And againe, in lib. 4. contr. Eutych. vvhen he vvas in the earth, hee vvas not in heauen: and novv that he is in heauen, hee is not in the earth. And againe: hee vvas circumscribed in a place according to his humane nature, and not conteined in a place according to his Diuinity: this is the Catholike confession and faith, vvhich the Apostles haue deliuered; the Martyrs haue confirmed, and the faithfull haue kept to this day. If this be the Catholike faith, then are not you Catholikes vvho iudge farre othe•vvise of the humanity of Christ.
*DVR. Chrysostom, because he saw many so addicted and given to theatres, stage plays, and impious Interludes, did thus admonish them, lest they should distaste the reading of the Scriptures. WHIT pag. 458. Be it so: have you also no impious places and spectacles and profane exercises? And yet with you any thing is lawful, save reading of the Scriptures. But who so readeth Chrysostom, in Joan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloss. hom. 9. de Lazaro hom. 3. shall find that he required this simply, necessarily, and generally of all men.DVR. Chrysostome, because hee savv many so addicted and giuen to theaters, stage plaies, and impious Interludes, did thus admonish them, lest they should distast the reading of the Scriptures. WHIT pag. 458. Be it so: haue you also no impious places and spectacles and prophane exercises? And yet vvith you any thing is lawfull, saue reading of the Scriptures. But vvho so readeth Chrysostome, in Ioan. hom. 13. in Epist. ad Coloss. hom. 9. de Lazaro hom. 3. shall find that he required this simplie, necessarily, and generally of all men.
7Chrysost ad Coloss. hom. 9. & in Joan. hom. 8.Chrysost ad Coloss. hom. 9. & in Ioan. hom. 8.
8Gregor. lib. 4. Epist. 30. & 34.
xDVR. Gregory condemned John, because he sought for such an authority over all Bishops, as the Emperor had over the Kings, who are subject unto them. WHIT. pag. 460. Whether John of Constantinople sought such a power or no; it is not certain: but no man can be ignorant, how the Pope affecteth it: And long ago hath not only got authority over the Bishops, but hath subdued the Emperor himself: which John of Constantinople never once assayed to do. Gregory telleth us what he meaneth by universal Bishop, he who endeavoureth to bring into subjection to himself all the members of Christ by the title of universal. Whereby he toucheth home your Pope, who subjecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head: neither did ever any Emperor rule more tyrannously over his Kings and vassals, then the Pope hath over the Bishops of all Churches.DVR. Gregory condemned Iohn, because he sought for such an authority ouer all Bishops, as the Emperour had ouer the Kings, vvho are subiect vnto them. WHIT. pag. 460. Whether Iohn of Constantinople sought such a povver or no; it is not certaine: but no man can be ignorant, how the Pope affecteth it: And long ago hath not only got authority ouer the Bishops, but hath subdued the Emperour himselfe: which Iohn of Constantin•ple neuer once assayed to do. Gregory telleth vs what he meaneth by vniuersall Bishop, he vvho endeuoureth to bring into subiection to himselfe all the members of Christ by the title of vniuersall. Whereby he toucheth home your Pope, who subiecteth all the members of Christ to himself as to their head: neither did euer any Emperour rule more tyrannously ouer his Kings and vassals, then the Pope hath ouer the Bishops of all Churches.
⟨p. 169⟩
do thrust vpon vs, was 〈…〉 allowed in the Catholike Church; then are all the Historiographers on our part, and the inuasions of the aduersaries are not friuolous, and such as can make no man afraid, except it bee first granted, that all Christians throughout euery age, haue fallen to grosse infidelity and consequently into the deepe pit of hell;
