An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof…An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof…
An answer to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Jesuit in confidence whereof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controversy of faith. Whereunto is added in brief marginal notes, the sum of the defence of those reasons by John Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Jesuit, with a reply unto it. Written first in the Latin tongue by the reverend and faithful servant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Divinity, and the Kings Professor and public reader of Divinity in the University of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the unlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authority) into the English tongue; by Richard Stock, preacher in London. ...An ansvvere to the Ten reasons of Edmund Campian the Iesuit in confidence wherof he offered disputation to the ministers of the Church of England, in the controuersie of faith. Whereunto is added in briefe marginall notes, the summe of the defence of those reasons by Iohn Duræus the Scot, being a priest and a Iesuit, with a reply vnto it. Written first in the Latine tongue by the reuerend and faithfull seruant of Christ and his Church, William Whitakers, Doctor in Diuinitie, and the Kings Professor and publike reader of Diuinitie in the Vniuersitie of Cambridge. And now faithfully translated for the benefit of the vnlearned (at the appointment and desire of some in authoritie) into the English tongue; by Richard Stocke, preacher in London. ...
William Whitaker 1548–1595London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weaver, 1606London: printed by Felix Kyngston for Cuthbert Burby and Edmund Weauer, 1606
[40], 326 p. · 97k words · STC 25360 · ESTC S119870
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
For (saith Bernard) virginity is not commanded, 1but advised. Nay, they that cannot contain, are commanded to marry. Wherefore the Apostle was not only of opinion that those ought not to keep their virginity, but also he dissuaded them from it: nor would he have dissuaded them from it, if Christ had persuaded them to it. Neither are these positions proper to Luther: for all good men do both acknowledge and defend them.
For (saith Bernard) virginitie is not commaunded, 1but aduised. Nay, they that cannot conteine, are commaunded to marrie. Wherefore the Apostle was not onely of opinion that those ought not to keepe their virginitie, but also he disswaded them from it: nor would he haue disswaded them from it, if Christ had perswaded them to it. Neither are these positions proper to Luther: for all good men doe both acknowledge and defend them.
But let us hear the rest:h The more wicked that thou art, (saith he) so much the nearer art thou unto grace. The grace of Christ is sufficient not only for small sins, but also for the greatest: nor are small offenders only invited by Christ to come to him, ⟨p. 250⟩but they also that are laden with the burden of their sins. Luther exhorts thee not to go forward in sin, but that thou shouldest not despair of pardon. And certainly thei more wicked that thou hast been in thy life by-past, so much the more abundant grace shall embrace thee, if thou be truly penitent for thy sins.
For where sin hath abounded, grace hath overabounded. If you condemn Luther, who will think that you let Paul pass free? For you have the same action against both, sith they be of one and the same judgement. What followeth? All good actions be sins; of God be severe in judgement, they are damnable sins; if he be favourable, they be but small ones,
though never so excellent, there is some fault, which may wholly mar the action, and make it odious to God, if that which is done be weighed in the balance of divine justice. But after that the Lord hath received us wholly to favour in Christ, those things which are but begun in us, & besprinkled with some blots,
yet they please him as if they were entire and pure, because he looketh upon our persons, and he doth not make search into the worth and merit
⟨p. 252⟩
of the work. These things spake Luther and confirmed them by the sentences of sacred Scriptures and holy Fathers: which you could much more easily pass by than confute. Go forward. No man of himself thinketh evil. This is maliciously objected, as are all the rest. God doth throw into no man an evil thought, he compelleth the will of none to sin: yet nothing is done by chance or fortune: and in the very sins of men the providence of God ruleth. Those thoughts of men which are evil, spring out of a certain inbred naughtiness proper to every one: and yet the Lord can apply them to his own will. For so Joseph answereth his brethren: Ye thought evil against me, but the Lord turned it to good.
But let vs heare the rest:h The more wicked that thou art, (saith he) so much the neerer art thou vnto grace. The grace of Christ is sufficient not onely for small sinnes, but also for the greatest: nor are small offenders onely inuited by Christ to come to him, ⟨p. 250⟩but they also that are laden with the burthen of their sinnes. Luther exhorts thee not to goe forward in sinne, but that thou shouldest not despaire of pardon. And certainely thei more wicked that thou hast been in thy life by-past, so much the more aboundant grace shall imbrace thee, if thou be truely penitent for thy sinnes.3 For where sinne hath abounded, grace hath ouerabounded. If you condemne Luther, who will thinke that you let Paul passe free? For you haue the same action against both, sith they be of one and the same iudgement. What followeth? All good actions be sinnes; of God be seuere in iudgement, they are damnable sinnes; if hee bee fauourable, they be but small ones, kLuther said this, and hee saide it truely. For in euery action of a man, ⟨p. 251⟩lthough neuer so excellēt, there is some fault, which may wholy marre the action, and make it odious to God, if that which is done bee weighed in the ballance of diuine iustice. But after that the Lord hath receiued vs wholy to fauour in Christ, those things which are but begun in vs, & besprinkled with some blots,m yet they please him as if they were entire and pure, because he looketh vpon our persons, and he doth not make search into the worth and merit ⟨p. 252⟩of the worke. These things spake Luther and confirmed them by the sentences of sacred Scriptures and holy Fathers: which you could much more easilie passe by than confute. Goe forward. No man of himselfe thinketh euill. This is maliciously obiected, as are all the rest. God doth throw into no man an euill thought, he compelleth the will of none to sinne: yet nothing is done by chaunce or fortune: and in the very sinnes of men the prouidence of God ruleth. Those thoughts of men which are euill, spring out of a certaine inbred naughtines proper to euery one: and yet the Lord can applie them to his owne will. For so Ioseph answereth his brethren: Ye thought euill against me, but the Lord turned it to good.7
hDVR. Do you not think therefore that the devil himself is nearest of all to grace? WHIT. pag. 6•6. It is devilish so to dispute; Luther meant nothing else, but to stay mens consciences afflicted and troubled with the greatness of sin, and to comfort them with the mercy of God which, the greater sinner thou art, the greater is it on thee, when thou dost truly turn unto the Lord, as the Apostle saith, where sin abounded, grace abounded much more. Rom. 5.20.DVR. Doe you not thinke therefore that the diuell himselfe is neerest of all to grace? WHIT. pag. 6•6. It is diuellish so to dispute; Luther meant nothing els, but to stay mēs consciences afflicted and troubled with the greatnes of sin, and to comfort them vvith the mercie of God which, the greater sinner thou art, the greater is it on thee, vvhen thou dost truly turne vnto the Lord, as the Apostle saith, vvhere sinne abounded, grace abounded much more. Rom. 5.20.
iDVR. Where learned you to call him a wicked man, that is truly penitent for his sins? WHIT. pag. 697. Christ saith, Luk. 15.7 There shall be joy in heaven over one sinner that repenteth. Ask now, who taught Christ to call him a sinner that repenteth him of his sins; or why do you not quarrel with the Apostle, when he saith, God justifieth the ungodly. Rom 4.5? For he that is ungodly is not justified.DVR. VVhere learned you to call him a wicked man, that is truly penitent for his sins? WHIT. pag. 697. Christ saith, Luk. 15.7 There shal be ioy in heauen ouer one sinner that repenteth. Aske novv, vvho taught Christ to call him a sinner that repenteth him of his sinnes; or vvhy do you not quarrell with the Apostle, vvhen he saith, God iustifieth the ungodly. Rom 4.5? For he that is vngodly is not iustified.
kDVR. The Apostle S. Paul then said not truly; If thou take a wife thou sinnest not. 1 Cor. 7. Then S. Peter said not truly, 2. Pet. 1.10. For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. Neither said Saint John truly, 1. Joh 3.8. For this purpose the Sonne of God appeared, that heo might loose the works of the Devil. Neither did S. Paul well to compare good works to silver, gold, and precious stones. 1. Cor. 3.12. Neither did the Prophets and Apostle• well to exhort us to good works. And if all our actions (though good) be sin, do not you your selves sin whilst you believe to be justified by faith? For faith is a work, seeing Christ saith, This is the work of God, that you believe. WHIT. pag. 698. That even our good actions are tainted with some sin, no man can doubt, that either knoweth the Scriptures, or himself. As Isay saith 64.10. Now it even all our righteous actions be like unto a stinking & filthy clout, they are surely tainted with some sin. The Prophet David prayeth Psal. 143.2. Wherefore no work, (though good) can deliver us from the just judgement of God. And this is that which the Apostle Paul speaketh Gal. 5.17. and Rom. 7.21. also Job 9.2. Upon which place Gregory Moral. lib. 9. cap. 1. thus writeth. The holy man because he seeth, that even all the merit of our very virtue is sin, if by an inward judgement it be rightly judged of, doth well add &c. Here Gregory calleth the merits of our virtue, that is, our very best works, sins. And again the same Gregory cap. 14. As we have often said, all humane righteousness is convinced to be unrighteousness, if it be rightly judged of. Now he that calleth our rigeteousnes unrighteousness, what saith he else, then that which Luther said, That there is some sin in every good work? This Paradox therefore Luther learned our of the Scriptures and ancient Fathers. But to come to your slender reasons. If thou take a wife, thou sinnest not. I answer here is a fallacy. For we say not to marry a wise is sin, but that they who marry wives intermix some sin in that good action. And to the place of S. Peter. I say that there you use also a fallacy: for to fall, in that place signifieth to fall away wholly and altogether from grace and salvation. For the place of S. John, we mean not that good works are sins, but that they have some sin mixed with them. For it followeth not that silver is dross, because it hath some dross mingled with it. And Christ came not to the end there should be no sin left in his Saints whilst they live here, but that he might take away the guilt of sin. And what if S. Paul hath compared our good works to silver, gold, or precious stones? Know you not that even in the best metals, and in such stones there may some dross be found? But the Apostle compareth sound doctrine to these things; than which there is nothing more precious if it be kept pure and incorrupted. The Prophets and Apostles do well to exhort us to do good works: but if they bid us do our duty, doth it therefore follow, that we may not commit some sin in doing thereof? Last of all touching your demand concerning faith, you bewray your ignorance; for we are not justified by faith, as it is a work or action of ours, for it is imperfect: but because it is as the hand whereby we lay hold on Christ, and Christ calleth faith a work either by imitation, or because it is the work of the holy Ghost that kindleth it in our hearts.DVR. The Apostle S. Paul then said not truly; If thou take a vvife thou sinnest not. 1 Cor. 7. Then S. Peter said not truly, 2. Pet. 1.10. For if yee do these things, yee shall neuer fall. Neither said Sa•nt Iohn truly, 1. Ioh 3.8. For this purpose the Sonne of God appeared, that heo might loose the workes of the Diuell. Neither did S. Paul vvell to compare good vvorkes to siluer, gold, and precious stones. 1. Cor. 3.12. Neither did the Prophets and Apostle• well to exhort vs to good vvorks. And if all our actions (though good) be sinne, doe not you your selues sinne vvhilest you beleeue to be iustified by faith? For faith is a vvorke, seeing Christ saith, This is the worke of God, that you beleeue. WHIT. pag. 698. That euen our good actions are tainted vvith some sinne, no man can doubt, that either knoweth the Scriptures, or himself. As Isay saith 64.10. Now it euen al our righteous actiōs be like vnto a stincking & filthie clout, they are surely tainted with some sin. The Prophet Dauid prayeth Psal. 143.2. Wherefore no worke, (though good) can deliuer vs from the iust iudgement of God. And this is that which the Apostle Paul speaketh Gal. 5.17. and Rom. 7.21. also Job 9.2. Vpon which place Gregorie Moral. lib. 9. cap. 1. thus writeth. The holy man because he seeth, that euen all the merit of our very vertue is sinne, if by an invvard iudgement it be rightly iudged of, doth vvell adde &c. Heere Gregorie calleth the merits of our vertue, that is, our very best workes, sinnes. And againe the same Gregorie cap. 14. As vve haue often said, all humane righteousnes is conuinced to be v•righteousnes, if it be rightly iudged of. Now he that calleth our rigeteousnes vnrighteousnes, what saith he else, then that which Luther said, That there is some sinne in euery good vvorke? This Paradoxe therefore Luther learned our of the Scriptures and auncient Fathers. But to come to your slender reasons. If thou take a vvife, thou sinnest not. I answere heere is a fallacie. For we say not to marrie a wise is sinne, but that they vvho marrie wiues intermixe some sinne in that good action. And to the place of S. Peter. I say that there you vse also a fallacy: for to fall, in that place signifieth to fall away wholy and altogether from grace and saluation. For the place of S. Iohn, vve meane not that good workes are sinnes, but that they haue some sinne mixed with them. For it followeth not that siluer is drosse, because it hath some drosse mingled with it. And Christ came not to the end there should be no sinne left in his Saints whilest they liue here, but that he might take away the guilt of sinne. And what if S. Paul hath compared our good workes to siluer, gold, or precious stones? Know you not that euen in the best mettals, and in such stones there may some drosse be found? But the Apostle compareth sound doctrine to these things; than which there is nothing more precious if it be kept pure and incorrupted. The Prophets and Apostles do well to exhort vs to doe good workes: but if they bid vs do our duty, doth it therefore follow, that vvee may not commit some sinne in doing thereof? Last of all touching your demaund concerning faith, you bewray your ignorance; for we are not iustified by faith, as it is a worke or action of ours, for it is imperfect: but because it is as the hand wherby we lay hold on Christ, and Christ calleth faith a worke either by imitation, or because it is the worke of the holy Ghost that kindleth it in our hearts.
lDVR. Therefore no action can ever be either excellent or good. Well said Dionysius, That that which is good, must needs come of a cause perfectly good. WHIT. pag. 701. Is there any so dull, as to say that there is no health not soundness in the body at all, because there is only some thing in the body not so sound as it should be? As for Dionysius, he speaketh of that entire and perfect good which we never attain to in this life. For as long as the flesh lusteth against the spirit, there can be no such entire good in us, proceeding from entire and perfect causes.DVR. Therefore no action can euer be either excellent or good. VVell said Dionysius, That that vvhich is good, must n•edes come of a cause perfectly good. WHIT. pag. 701. Is there any so dull, as to say that there is no health not soundnes in the body at all, because there is onlie some thing in the body not so sound as it should be? As for Dionysius, he speaketh of that entire and perfect good which we neuer attaine to in this life. For as long as the flesh lusteth against the spirit, there can be no such entire good in vs, proceeding from entire and perfect causes.
mDVR. What a monstrous speech is this? Is it possible that even sins should please God? WHIT. pag. 702. Can you put no difference between the corruption of the action, and the action it self? A good father loveth the obedience and duty of his sonne, which he knoweth nevertheless is not such as it ought to be, and how much more doth God accept the slender and weak endeavours of his children?DVR. VVhat a monstrous speech is this? Is it possible that euen sinnes should please God? WHIT. pag. 702. Can you put no difference betvveene the corruption of the action, and the action it selfe? A good father loueth the obedience and dutie of his sonne, vvhich he knovveth neuerthelesse is not such as it ought to be, and how much more doth God accept the slender and vveake endeuours of his children?
Now you add:n The decalogue belongeth not to Christians. God doth not care for our works. Touching the decalogue and works, this answer I make you briefly. In the law the old covenant is contained; Do this and live: 2oCursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. The law promiseth life to them, which ⟨p. 253⟩obey the Law in all things: they that offend in any thing, to them it threateneth death and damnation.p An hard condition, and which no man can ever satisfy. Christ doth propose to us another condition much easier:5 Believe and thou shalt be saved. By this new Covenant the oldq is abrogated; so as whosoever believeth the Gospel, is freed from the condition of the Law.7 For they that rbelieve are not under the Law, but under grace. What needs many words? ⟨p. 254⟩sChristians are delivered from the curse of the law, but not from the obedience of it. As for our works, surely God regardeth them: and if they be good, he rewardeth them: if contrary, he judgeth them worthy of punishment:t but in justifying of us, God hath no respect to our works:u for the just shall live, not by his works, but by his faith. Now go ⟨p. 255⟩on.* Only they do rightly receive the Lords Supper, who bring sorrowful, afflicted, & confounded consciences. And so it is indeed, for they are no right receivers, who trusting to their own merits come audaciously, but they who heing oppressed with the greatness of their sins,13 do desire to be eased. For they which are whole desire not the Physician. A contrite and broken hart is an acceptable sacrifice to God. wherefore they which have greatest feeling of their sins and sorrow for them, to them that heavenly food is wont to be most wholesome. Good Lord, who would ever think it might come to pass, that any Christian should dislike these things! But is there any thing else?x You may confess you sins, but to any ⟨p. 256⟩body, ywho if he do absolve you but in jest, so as you believe, you are absolved. And why not? for it is not need full, either to number sins by our fingers, or to use a Priest or a Friar, such a one as your self.16 We may confess our faults one to another, so as Friars may be idle hereafter. And whosoever believeth that his sins are forgiven him, him saith it self absolves, whether he be absolved in jest or in earnest.
Now you adde:n The decalogue belongeth not to Christians. God doth not care for our workes. Touching the decalogue and workes, this answere I make you briefely. In the law the olde couenant is contained; Doe this and liue: 2oCursed is euery one that continueth not in all things which are written in the booke of the law to do them. The law promiseth life to them, which ⟨p. 253⟩obey the Law in all things: they that offend in any thing, to them it threatneth death and damnation.p An hard condition, and which no man can euer satisfie. Christ doth propose to vs another condition much easier:5 Beleeue and thou shalt bee saued. By this new Couenant the oldq is abrogated; so as whosoeuer beleeueth the Gospell, is freed from the condition of the Law.7 For they that rbeleeue are not vnder the Law, but vnder grace. What needs many words? ⟨p. 254⟩sChristians are deliuered from the curse of the law, but not from the obedience of it. As for our works, surely God regardeth them: and if they be good, he rewardeth them: if contrarie, he iudgeth them worthy of punishment:t but in iustifying of vs, God hath no respect to our works:u for the iust shall liue, not by his works, but by his faith. Now goe ⟨p. 255⟩on.* Only they do rightly receiue the Lords Supper, who bring sorrowful, afflicted, & cōfounded consciences. And so it is indeed, for they are no right receiuers, who trusting to their owne merits come audaciously, but they who heing opprested with the greatues of their sinnes,
nDVR. Then why answered Christ the young man in the Gospel with this, keep the Commandments? And how do thieves and adulterers sin? or how is it a sin now to omit the duties of the moral Law, more then to omit offering up of sacrifices? WHIT. pag. 703. That which Christ answered to the young man Matth. 19.17. may well be said unto you. For you seek righteousness by the Law: wherefore keep the Law if you vvill enter into life. But here you shall find no way to enter. Luther nor any of us, ever denied that the Law pertaineth unto Christians. For the righteousness of the Law is eternal, and every man ought with all endeavour to frame his life according to the same. But it is one thing to be bound by the Law, and another thing to conform and fr•me our lives by the rule of the Law. Wherefore thieves do sin, and are justly punished; and much more they that establish the ceremonies of Moses Law, which are wholly abrogated.DVR. Then vvhy ansvvered Christ the yong man in the Gospell vvith this, keepe the Cō mandements? And hovv doe theeues and adulterers sinne? or hovv is it a sinne novv to omit the duties of the morall Lavv, more then to omit offering vp of sacrifices? WHIT. pag. 703. That vvhich Christ ansvvered to the yong man Matth. 19.17. may vvell bee said vnto you. For you seeke righteousnes by the Lavv: vvherefore keepe the Lavv if you vvill enter into life. But here you shall find no vvay to enter. Luther nor any of vs, euer denied that the Lavv pertaineth vnto Christians. For the righteousnes of the Lavv is eternall, and euery man ought vvith all endeuour to frame his life according to the same. But it is one thing to bee bound by the Lavv, and another thing to conforme and fr•me our liues by the rule of the Lavv. Wherfore theeues do sinne, and are iustly punished; and much more they that establish the ceremonies of Moses Lavv, vvhich are vvholy abrogated.
oDVR Moses denounceth not the curse against the breaches of every small precept, but to those only, which he there reckoneth up: which were certainly very heinous sins. WHIT. pag. 708. If that curse be only proper to those, who are guilty of the sins there numbered and set down, what shall we then think of blasphemers, adulterers, and of other horrible malefactors? are they free from this curse? if this be impious and absurd, then must it be understood of all, even as many as do transgress the Law. And so S. Paul interpreteth the place, who undoubtedly understood the meaning of Moses better then all Jesuits. For he instructing the Galatians, as concerning the justice of the Law, proveth by this testimony,
Well, make haste. To read prayers by the hour, belongeth not to Priests, but to lay men. What your Priests do, or what they think they ought to do, it concerns me not. Let them read, let them pray, let them say Mass, let them drink, let them play, and in a word, let them be always like themselves. It behoveth a Minister of the Gospel not to recite certain ⟨p. 257⟩Collects by an hour-glass, and to make his walk in them certain spaces of hours, but to give daily diligence unto reading,1 exhortation, and doctrine; which things your Priests have ever thought to be far different from their office. But these same prayers by the hour albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests, who unless they should spend the time on this fashion, would never go out of Stews and Taverns, yet are they unworthy of a Christian man, because of their infinitez superstition. Let us hear the rest. Christians are free from the laws of men. That never came into Luther's mind, to pluck in pieces the authority of the Magistrates, which he did always defend most diligently against the Anabaptists.a Christians are free, not that they may obey no laws, and live only to themselves, but that they may understand that their consciences and minds are freed from making the laws of men to ⟨p. 258⟩be religion. The Pope of Rome hath bound the consciences of Christian men with his Decrees and Canons, and thereby hath laid such a snare upon their minds, as that they might think they are no less bound by the Popes Canons, then by Christs precepts. Therefore Luther freeth Christian liberty from those evil opinions wherein it had been infolded, and bringeth it into that state in which Christ would have it to be, that we should acknowledge him only to be the Lord of our conscience, and that we should obey the laws of men with a free conscience. We are now at length come to the bottom of this puddle, which although you have stirred with all your diligence, yet you have not found so much as one paradox, or a piece of a paradox of ours.
Well, make haste. To reade prayers by the houre, belongeth not to Priests, but to lay mē. What your Priests do, or what they thinke they ought to do, it concernes me not. Let them reade, let them pray, let them say Masse, let them drinke, let them play, and in a word, let them be alwayes like themselues. It behoueth a Minister of the Gospell not to recite certaine ⟨p. 257⟩Collects by an houre-glasse, and to make his walke in them certaine spaces of houres, but to giue daily diligence vnto reading,1 exhortation, and doctrine; which things your Priests haue euer thought to be farre different from their office. But these same prayers by the houre albeit they do not ill agree to your sacrificing priests, who vnlesse they should spēd the time on this fashion, would neuer goe out of Stewes and Tauernes, yet are they vnworthie of a Christian man, because of their infinitez superstition. Let vs heare the rest. Christians are free from the lawes of men. That neuer came into Luthers mind, to pluck in peeces the authority of the Magistrates, which he did alwaies defend most diligently against the Anabaptists.a Christians are free, not that they may obey no lawes, and liue only to themselues, but that they may vnderstand that their consciences and minds are freed from making the lawes of men to ⟨p. 258⟩be religion. The Pope of Rome hath bound the consciences of Christian men with his Decrees and Canons, and thereby hath laid such a snare vpon their minds, as that they might thinke they are no lesse bound by the Popes Canons, then by Christs precepts. Therfore Luther freeth Christian liberty from those euill opinions wherein it had bene infolded, and bringeth it into that state in which Christ would haue it to be, that we should acknowledge him only to be the Lord of our conscience, and that we should obey the lawes of men with a free conscience. We are now at length come to the bottome of this puddle, which although you haue stirred with all your diligence, yet you haue not found so much as one paradoxe, or a peece of a paradoxe of ours.
zDVR. Js it superstition to sing Psalms unto God, to pray for remission of sins, and other temporal and spiritual graces, and to perform other exercises of religion? who knoweth not, that Christians had their night Psalms? that the Hymns of Ambrose were at set times. In the Acts we read, that Peter and John went into the Temple at the ninth hour of prayer. WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproved not as superstitious and impious, but that all the time, which should be bestowed in instructing the people, should be spent in saying their daily appointed hours, specially in that tongue which not the people, and often times not the Priest himself doth understand. No man is ignorant that Christians had their night hours, but it was because they might not assemble themselves in the day time: vvill you keep this custom, and not be accounted superstitious? The Hymns of Ambrose are full of piety, and far from superstitious chanting As for the Apostles, they went not up to sacrifice nor to keep Canonical hours, but to instruct the people who came thither to the evening sacrifice in great multitudes.DVR. Js it superstition to sing Psalmes vnto God, to pray for remission of sinnes, and other temporall and spirituall graces, and to performe other exercises of religion? vvho knovveth not, that Christians had their night Psalmes? that the Hymnes of Ambrose vvere at set times. In the Acts vve read, that Peter and Iohn vvent into the Temple at the ninth houre of prayer. WHIT. pag. 726. These things I reproued not as superstitious and impious, but that all the time, which should be bestovved in instructing the people, should be spent in saying their daily appointed houres, specially in that tongue vvhich not the people, and often times not the Priest himselfe doth vnderstand. No man is ignorant that Christians had their night houres, but it vvas because they might not assemble themselues in the day time: vvill you keepe this custome, and not be accounted superstitious? The Hymnes of Ambrose are full of piety, and sarre from superstitious chaunting As for the Apostles, they vvent not vp to sacrifice nor to keepe Canonicall houres, but to instruct the people who came thither to the euening sacrifice in great multitudes.
aDVR. It they be bound to obey, how are their consciences free from the religion of them? Jf was a humane law, Act. 15.20. touching, strangled and blood. And Rom. 13.2.5. and
But now if I would but a little make search into the most filthy puddles of your writers, as to reckon up what they have affirmed, of God, of the Providence of God, of Predestination, of the Person and Offices of Christ, of Original sin, of the Law, of Righteousness, of the Sacraments, of Purgatory, of the Pope of Rome, and of the rest of the greatest controversies in Religion, how many Carts should I fill with paradoxes, horrible to be spoken, or thought? But it is ⟨p. 259⟩better not at this time to stir this common Sewer: and otherwhere (I hope) occasion will be given to speak hereof. Now in that you would join the Lutherans and Zwinglians together, therein surely you have not offended us, for we both reverence Luther as a father, and we embrace them as very deer brethren in Christ. And verily we hope it will come to pass, that this controversy, which is between us being compounded, we shall all with joint minds and studies set upon the common enemy. As for that you say touching your self, I am easily persuaded to think it to be true, whether it be that you speak it heartily or feignedly. For what (I beseech you) have you alleged, for which we should not rather think you to be some Rhetorical Actor upon a Stage, then a learned and experienced Divine? Campian, if you be wise, be quiet, for (believe me) you cannot endure the force and violence of this combat. Let those choice and old soldiers put themselves into the camp, who are, if not more bold to provoke, yet more wary to avoid blows, and much more skilful in all discipline of war. To enter combat with these, both the Universities have many worthy men, and I trust there will never want excellent Divines to wage perpetual war with the broken bands of Antichrist.
But now if I would but a little make search into the most filthy puddles of your writers, as to recken vp what they haue affirmed, of God, of the Prouidence of God, of Predestination, of the Person and Offices of Christ, of Originall sin, of the Law, of Righteousnes, of the Sacraments, of Purgatory, of the Pope of Rome, and of the rest of the greatest controuersies in Religion, how many Carts should I fill with paradoxes, horrible to be spoken, or thought? But it is ⟨p. 259⟩better not at this time to stirre this common Sewre: and otherwhere (I hope) occasion will be giuen to speake hereof. Now in that you would ioine the Lutherans and Zwinglians together, therein surely you haue not offended vs, for we both reuerence Luther as a father, and we embrace them as very deere brethren in Christ. And verily we hope it will come to passe, that this controuersie, which is betweene vs being compounded, we shall all with ioint minds and studies set vpon the common enemie. As for that you say touching your selfe, I am easily perswaded to thinke it to be true, whether it be that you speake it hartily or sainedly. For what (I beseech you) haue you alledged, for which wee should not rather thinke you to be some Rhetoricall Actor vpon a Stage, then a learned and experienced Diuine? Campian, if you be wise, be quiet, for (beleeue me) you cannot indure the force and violence of this combate. Let those choise and old souldiers put themselues into the camp, who are, if not more bold to prouoke, yet more wary to auoid blowes, and much more skilfull in all discipline of warre. To enter combate with these, both the Vniuersities haue many worthie men, and I trust there will neuer want excellent Diuines to wage perpetuall warre with the broken bands of Antichrist.
IT is an ancient Proverb, that a pore-blind man may be a King amongst the blind. Amongst the ignorant sort of people many times a coloured argument taketh place, the which the Philosophers school doth hiss at. The* Adversary herein much offendeth, but namely in four kinds of fallaces he is well practised, which I had rather disclose in the University schools, then in the common streets, whither only rude people do resort. The first fault is called Schiamachia, 2which is a forcible striking of the air, and beating of shadows on this sort, against those that are single and have* sworn and solemnly vowed to live in Chastity, because Marriage is good, but Virginity is better. They bring scriptures that speak very* honourably of Matrimony:5 Whom do they pierce with their darts? Against the* merits of a Christian man dipped in Christs blood, without the which there is no merit at all. They recite testimonies, which command us to put our affiance neither in nature nor in the law, but in the blood of Christ; whom do they confute? Against those that honour Saints, as the most acceptable servants of Christ, there are vouched whole pages of scripture, which prohibit the* worshipping of many gods? Such Arguments as these, which I see swarm amongst the Adversaries, cannot hurt us, well may they be loathsome unto you.
IT is an auncient Prouerb, that a pore-blinde man may be a King amongst the blinde. Amongst the ignorant sort of people many times a coloured argument taketh place, the which the Philosophers schoole doth hisse at. The* Aduersarie herein much offendeth, but namely in foure kinds of fallaces he is well practised, which I had rather disclose in the Vniuersitie schooles, then in the common streets, whither only rude people do resort. The first fault is called Schiamachia, 2which is a forcible striking of the ayer, and beating of shadowes on this sort, against those that are single and haue* sworne and solemnely vowed to liue in Chastity, because Marriage is good, but Virginitie is better. They bring scriptures that speake very* honorably of Matrimony:5 Whom do they pierce with their darts? Against the* merits of a Christian man dipped in Christes bloud, without the which there is no merit at all. They recite testimonies, which commaund vs to put our affiance neither in nature nor in the lawe, but in the bloud of Christ; whom do they confute? Against those that honor Saints, as the most acceptable seruants of Christ, there are vouched whole pages of scripture, which prohibit the* worshipping of many gods? Such Arguments as these, which I see swarme amongst the Aduersaries, cannot hurt vs, well may they be loathsome vnto you.
*This is false: you can produce none of our sophisms: and those you speak of are yours, not oursThis is false: you can produce none of our sophismes: and those you speake of are yours, not ours
2Schiamachia.
*Those oaths and vows are taken and made against the scriptures.Those oathes and vovves are taken and made against the scriptures.
*Marriage is honourable in all conditions of men, therefore in Ministers.Marriage is honorable in all conditions of men, therefore in Ministers.
*All he can do are his duties, therefore there can be no merits.
*They who worship many Saints, worship many Gods. Papists worship many Saints ergo.They vvho vvorship many Saints, vvorship many Gods. Papists vvorship many Saints ergo.
The second fault is Logomachia, 1which is a leaning of the matter it self, and contentiously to strive about ⟨p. 261⟩a bare word. Find if thou canst (say they) this word Missa, 1. Mass, or Purgatorium. 1. Purgatory in the scripture. What if I cannot? Is there not a* Trinity, a consubstantiality, or the person of God to be proved out of the Bible, because these words Trinitas 1. a trinity, Homoousios, 1. of the same substance, Persona, 1. a person be not there found? Of great alliance to this fault is Literarum aucupium, when neglecting the common usage and true meaning of the speakers, which is the very life of the word, they cavil against the bare letters. For thus they argue: Presbyter 1. a Priest, is nothing else in Greek but Senior, 1. an Elder. Sacramentum 1. a Sacrament, signifieth all kind of mystery. But S. Thomas herein as in all other matters saith most wisely, that in words we must mark not so much from whence, as to what purpose they are spoken. The third fault is Homonymia, 3which they most commonly use, as when they say to what purpose was the order of* Priesthood instituted, seeing that S. John hath called us all Priests?5 So hath he also added this, We are all Kings and shall reign upon the earth. Wherefore then were Kings ordained? Again, they say, the Prophet biddeth us observe a spiritual feast, that is, that we should refrain from our old sins: Farewell all* change of meats, and prescript times of fasting. Is the matter so indeed? Then Moses, David, Elijah, S. John Baptist, and the Apostles were stark fools, who ended their fasting from usual food after two days, three days, and certain weeks, whereas their fast from sin should have endured so long as they lived. What this fallacy is you have now seen, I hast forward. The fourth fault added to this,7 is Circulatio, a going about the bush in this manner: Tell me (I say to one of them) the true marks of the Church. He answereth the word of God, and the purest ministering of the Sacraments. Are these marks to be found amongst you, say I? who doubteth of that, saith he? I utterly deny it. Then quoth he peruse ⟨p. 262⟩the word of God. I* have already perused it, and I think worse of your side then I did before. Tush, saith he for all that the matter is most plain; prove me that, say I: because (saith he) we swerve not a finger breadth from the word of God.
The second fault is Logomachia, 1which is a leaning of the matter it selfe, and contentiously to striue about ⟨p. 261⟩a bare word. Find if thou canst (say they) this word Missa, 1. Masse, or Purgatorium. 1. Purgatorie in the scripture. What if I cannot? Is there not a* Trinity, a consubstantiality, or the person of God to be proued out of the Bible, because these words Trinitas 1. a trinity, Homoousios, 1. of the same substāce, Persona, 1. a person be not there found? Of great alliance to this fault is Literarum aucupium, when neglecting the common vsage and true meaning of the speakers, which is the very life of the word, they cauill against the bare letters. For thus they argue: Presbyter 1. a Priest, is nothing else in Greeke but Senior, 1. an Elder. Sacramentum 1. a Sacrament, signifieth all kind of mysterie. But S. Thomas herein as in all other matters saith most wisely, that in words we must marke not so much from whence, as to what purpose they are spoken. The third fault is Homonymia, 3which they most commōly vse, as whē they say to what purpose was the order of* Priesthood instituted, seeing that S. Iohn hath called vs all Priests?5 So hath he also added this, We are all Kings and shall raigne vpon the earth. Wherefore then were Kings ordained? Againe, they say, the Prophet biddeth vs obserue a spirituall feast, that is, that we should refraine from our old sinnes: Farewell all* change of meates, and prescript times of fasting. Is the matter so indeed? Then Moyses, Dauid, Helias, S. Iohn Baptist, and the Apostles were starke fooles, who ended their fasting from vsuall food after two dayes, three dayes, and certaine weekes, whereas their fast from sinne should haue endured so long as they liued. What this fallacy is you haue now seene, I hast forward. The fourth fault added to this,7 is Circulatio, a going about the bush in this manner: Tell me (I say to one of them) the true marks of the Church. He answereth the word of God, and the purest ministring of the Sacraments. Are these marks to be found amongst you, say I? who doubteth of that, saith he? I vtterly deny it. Then quoth he peruse
1Logomachia.
*A most foolish and unjust comparison.A most foolish and vniust comparison.
3Homonymia.
*Here is no Homonymy, for there are now no Priests in a Christian Church.Heere is no Homonymy, for there are now no Priests in a Christian Church.
*Campian placeth fasting in the choice of meats, and observation of days, which in mere Judaism.Campian placeth fasting in the choise of meates, and obseruation of daies, vvhich in meere Iudaisme.
7Circulatio.
*If you had consulted with the word of God, you should easily have perceived that it was so: but you consult with the Church of Rome and not with the word.If you had consulted with the vvord of God, you should easily haue perceiued that it vvas so: but you consult vvith the Church of Rome and not with the word.
Where is thy sharp wit thou braggest of? Wilt thou still for thy proof infer that which is in controversy? How often have I blamed thee for this. Wilt thou not awake out of thy dreams. Must thou have a torch lighted that thou mayest see to speak? I tell thee once again, that thou doest maliciously misconstrue the word of God. I have for my witnesses fifteen hundred years. Stand to the judgement, neither thine nor mine, but of these 1500. years. I will stand, saith he, to the judgement of the word of God.1 The spirit doth breath where he listeth. Behold what roundabouts he fetcheth, what round rings he treadeth. I know not to whom this jester and coiner of so many waste words and foolish fallaces may be a terror; troublesome peradventure he will be: may it please your wisdoms to tolerate his troublesomeness; as for the fear, the cause it self hath already quite taken away.
Where is thy sharp wit thou braggest of? Wilt thou still for thy proofe inferre that which is in controuersie? How often haue I blamed thee for this. Wilt thou not awake out of thy dreames. Must thou haue a torch lighted that thou maist see to speake? I tell thee once againe, that thou doest malitiously miscōstrue the word of God. I haue for my witnesses fifteene hundred yeares. Stand to the iudgement, neither thine nor mine, but of these 1500. yeares. I will stand, saith he, to the iudgemēt of the word of God.1 The spirit doth breath where he listeth. Behold what roundabouts he fetcheth, what round rings he treadeth. I know not to whom this iester and coyner of so many waste words and foolish fallaces may be a terror; troublesome peraduenture he will be: may it please your wisedomes to tollerate his troublesomnesse; as for the feare, the cause it selfe hath alreadie quite taken away.
IT is a goodly thing that Sophisters complain of fallacies, and that you, who your selves are altogether compact of fraud, lies, and impostures, do upbraid us with Sophistry. All your Divinity, which ought to be honest and sincere without deceit and fraud, hath of late ⟨p. 263⟩degenerated into a subtle sleight of disputing like School-boys and Sophisters: for after that you had abandoned true Divinity out of the Churches, and as it were exiled the light from mens eyes, then you began at last to put forth curious questions in the Schools; and so, as pore blind men, to be admired of those who saw nothing. Hence arose that innumerable army of Sophisters, who confounded themselves with their refined idle disputes, as with mutual wounds, in so much as who so could best skill of counterfeit and captious trifling conclusions, he should be reputed as some King or petty God over those blind and squint-eyed smatterers in Divinity. And this hope of domineering amongst so many blind ones hath egged on you Jesuits thus diligently to dwell upon this craft, and to put down all the ancient Sophisters for deceit and fraud, your selves being yet but upstarts: For if there were ever any kingdom of pore-blind men over the stark blind, questionless it is now wholly descended unto you, to whom the ancienter orders of Monks and Friars do willingly yield the garland, because they think▪ you see something. Play your prizes now you noble Sophisters, and execute with all diligence the Sophistical dominion which you have gotten, lest some hereafter happily sly dispossess you of this honour: for shortly some one or other new family and sect of Sophisters will gather strength, which (if you look not well about you) will at last shoulder and shuffle you violently out of place, and enter upon this sovereignty over the school of Sophistry, which now for some years you have possessed. For out of doubt, kingdoms themselves entitled upon petty sleights and deceitful conveyances of words, cannot long continue. Seeing therefore this your whole show of new learning consists in furbishing up of untruths, and refining the former ⟨p. 264⟩Sophistry, verily I make no question, but as it is of yesterdays building, so it will shortly fall to ruin.
IT is a goodly thing that Sophisters complaine of fallacies, and that you, who your selues are altogether compact of fraud, lies, and impostures, do vpbraid vs with Sophistrie. All your Diuinitie, which ought to be honest and sincere without deceipt and fraud, hath of late ⟨p. 263⟩degenerated into a subtle fleight of disputing like Schoole-boyes and Sophisters: for after that you had abandoned true Diuinitie out of the Churches, and as it were exiled the light from mens eyes, then you began at last to put forth curious questions in the Schooles; and so, as pore blind men, to be admired of those who saw nothing. Hence arose that innumerable army of Sophisters, who confounded themselues with their refined idle disputes, as with mutuall wounds, in so much as who so could best skill of counterfet and captious trifling conclusions, he should be reputed as some King or petie God ouer those blind and squint-eyed smatterers in Diuinitie. And this hope of domineering amongst so many blind ones hath egged on you Iesuites thus diligently to dwell vpon this craft, and to put downe all the ancient Sophisters for deceipt and fraude, your selues being yet but vpstarts: For if there were euer any kingdome of pore-blind men ouer the starck blind, questionlesse it is now wholly descended vnto you, to whom the ancienter orders of Monks and Friers do willingly yeeld the garland, because they thinke▪ you see something. Play your prizes now you noble Sophisters, and execute with all diligence the Sophisticall dominion which you haue gotten, lest some hereafter happily sleely dispossesse you of this honor: for shortly some one or other new family and sect of Sophisters will gather strength, which (if you looke not well about you) will at last shoulder and shuffle you violently out of place, and enter vpon this soueraigntie ouer the schoole of Sophistrie, which now for some yeares you haue possessed. For out of doubt, kingdomes themselues entitled vpon pety sleights and deceiptfull conueiances of words, cannot long continue. Seeing therefore this your whole shew of new learning consists in furbushing vp of vntruths, and refining the former ⟨p. 264⟩Sophistrie, verily I make no question, but as it is of yesterdayes building, so it will shortly fall to ruine.
But for as much as you mention certain Sophisms as ours, and persuade your favourites that we use very much sophistry; before I answer to these your falsehoods which you lay to our charge, I will give the reader a taste of your own most notorious false-groundeda disputations, and deceitful Elenches; that so,2 whether you or we be more truly to be termed Sophisters, the School and University it self may determine betwixt us, where you desire rather these things should be discussed, then amongst the vulgar. I for my part do appeal unto this school of Philosophers, and University of Divines; and I earnestly beseech all men who have understanding in the principles either of Divinity or Logic, and as many as ever tasted of any School-learning, that they will heedfully observe how current these your conclusions be, and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation.
But for as much as you mention certain Sophismes as ours, and perswade your fauorites that we vse very much sophistrie; before I answere to these your falshoods which you lay to our charge, I will giue the reader a tast of your owne most notorious false-groundeda disputations, and deceiptfull Elenches; that so,2 whether you or we be more truly to be tearmed Sophisters, the Schoole and Vniuersitie it selfe may determine betwixt vs, where you desire rather these things should be discussed, then amongst the vulgar. I for my part do appeale vnto this schoole of Philosophers, and Vniuersitie of Diuines; and I earnestly beseech all men who haue vnderstanding in the principles either of Diuinitie or Logick, and as many as euer tasted of any Schoole-learning, that they will heedfully obserue how current these your conclusions be, and examine them by the rules of right and true disputation.
aDVR. Our Ancestors, otherwise most wise men, having not always to deal with wilful spirits, did not strictly stand upon exact form of teaching. WHIT. pag. 734. The cause is the more desperate when such wise men could find no better arguments to maintain it, but such as even your self confess to be but weak: and both their hearers were then too credulous to believe, and you are now ridiculous to defend such loose arguments.DVR. Our Auncestors, otherwise most wise men, hauing not alvvaies to deale with wilfull spirits, did not strictly stand vpon exact forme of teaching. WHIT. pag. 734. The cause is the more desperate whē such wise mē could find no better arguments to maintaine it, but such as euen your self confesse to be but weake: and both their hearers were then too credulous to beleeue, and you are now ridiculous to defend such loose arguments.
And indeed to choose, I will there begin, where you your self have made an entrance. We maintain, that it is lawful for Ministers of the Gospel, and for Deacons, to be married. You scorn the arguments whereby we make it good. Wherefore let us consider what goodly stuff is brought on your side for the contrary.
And indeed to chuse, I will there begin, where you your selfe haue made an entrance. We mainteine, that it is lawfull for Ministers of the Gospell, and for Deacons, to be maried. You skorne the arguments whereby we make it good. Wherefore let vs consider what goodly stuffe is brought on your side for the contrarie.
Pope Innocent, the second of that name,1 thus concludeth (you must suppose) by divine inspiration against these marriages: They which are inb the flesh ⟨p. 265⟩cannot please God:3 Unto the pure, all things are pure, but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving, is nothing pure. Be ye holy, because I the Lord your God am holy. And because S. Paul permitteth married people (by consent) to sleep apart for a season, to the end they may more conveniently give themselves to fasting & prayer;4 here hence the Pope gathereth, that this is much morec to be done of Priests, whose office is to pray always, & to offer that daily sacrifice.6 Last of all, seeing they must be a temple of the Lord, and an oratory of the spirit,d they ought not to abase themselves with bed-pleasures & uncleannesses. Now out of all these he concludeth that which he propounded, that Deacons and Priests are flatly forbidden to marry.8 If these things be absurdly disputed, let us hear others. Several Pastors have rule over several flocks:c therefore the Pope ought to ⟨p. 266⟩have dominion over all Churches. Christ said to Peter feed my sheep;f therefore Peter is the chief & principal Pastor of the Church. The Lord made two great lights, the Sun,g & the Moon: therefore the Pope excelleth the Emperor in honour and greatness. Here are two swords; therefore theh Pope must ⟨p. 267⟩bear both swords. The servant is not above his master: thereforei it is lawful for no man to accuse or reprove the Pope. Christ prayed that Peters faith should not fail him:k therefore the Pope cannot err. The vulgar people cometh seldom and negligently to the Lords Supper:l therefore the Priest may celebrate private Mass. Christ admitted only his Apostles to Sup: therefore Priests alone mustm receive the Sacrament; the people ought to be contented only with one part. The title which Pilate fastened upon the Cross, was written in Hebrew, ⟨p. 268⟩Greek, & Latin: thereforen prayers must be read in the Churches in no language, but either Hebrew, or Greek, or Latin.18 That which is holy must not be given to dogs:o therefore the vulgar people must be forbidden to read the Scriptures. This is my body: therefore thep bread is turned into Christs body. Fall down before his footstool:q therefore the Sacrament must be worshipped. God is no respectre of persons:22rtherefore he chooseth no ⟨p. 269⟩man to life eternal, but with respect of merits. S.
Pope Innocent, the second of that name,1 thus concludeth (you must suppose) by diuine inspiration against these mariages: They which are inb the flesh ⟨p. 265⟩cannot please God:3 Vnto the pure, al things are pure, but vnto them that are defiled and vnbeleeuing, is nothing pure. Be yee holy, because I the Lord your God am holy. And because S. Paul permitteth married people (by consent) to sleepe apart for a season, to the end they may more conueniently giue themselues to fasting & praier;4 here hēce the Pope gathereth, that this is much morec to be done of Priests, whose office is to pray alwaies, & to offer that daily sacrifice.6 Last of al, seeing they must be a tēple of the Lord, and an oratory of the spirit,d they ought not to abase themselues with bed-pleasures & vncleannesses. Now out of all these he cōcludeth that which he propounded, that Deacons and Priests are flatlie forbidden to marry.8 If these things be absurdly disputed, let vs heare others. Seuerall Pastors haue rule ouer seuerall flockes:c therefore the Pope ought to ⟨p. 266⟩haue dominion ouer all Churches. Christ said to Peter feed my sheepe;f therefore Peter is the chiefe & principall Pastor of the Church. The Lord made two great lights, the Sunne,g & the Moone: therfore the Pope excelleth the Emperour in honour and greatnes. Heere are two swords; therfore theh
bDVR. Pope Innocent spake of Priests, who had vowed single life of their own accord, but afterward yielded to lust. WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spake that of all Deacons and Priests, for he saith further (Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti) It is not lawful to admit them to holy offices, which use carnal company •ith their wives, because it is written, ••e ye holy, for […] the Lord your God am holy: for then he esteemed marriage duty to be an unholy thing in it self; not in respect of their vow, of which he speaketh not a word.DVR. Pope Innocent spake of Priests, who had vowed single life of their ovvne accord, but aftervvard yeelded to lust. WHIT. pag. 735. Nay he spake that of all Deacons and Priests, for hee saith further (Distinct. 82. cap. proposuisti) It is not lawfull to admit them to holy offices, which vse carnall companie •ith their wiues, because it is written, ••e yee holy, for 〈…〉 the Lord your God am holy: for then hee esteemed marriage duty to bee an vnholie thing in it selfe; not in respect of their vow, of which he speaketh not a word.
cDVR. This argument is good and can have no show of error. For, above all men, a Priest must be chaste, saith Origen, Homil. 6 4. in Levit. Also Jerome and Ambrose, and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you er•e and mistake S. Paul in theree things: 1. What he wrote to all Christians, you expound of Lay-men only. 2. He speaketh only of extraordinary fasts & prayer, but you apply it unto all sorts thereof. That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinary, appears, 1. Because he hath joined fasting with them, 1. Cor. 7.5.2. Because Christ and his Apostle have commanded all to pray continually, and so all ought to l•ue a single life. 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men, you childishly would prove a perpetual single life to be necessary for Ministers. You abuse also Origens words, (& play the heretic) as if chastity were contrary to matrimony; whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Councell, consented to Paphnutius, who said openly, that society with a lawful wie, is chastity: Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony, seeking victory more then verity, as himself confessed. Ambrse and Epiphanius dissuaded Ministers only from second marriages, allowing their fist.
James commandeth that sick persons should be anointed:s therefore we must now ever and anon anoint the sick. This is a great mystery:t therefore Matrimony is a Sacrament. Elijah and John Baptist lived in the wilderness:u therefore they invented the manner of life and discipline of Monks. There are seven deadly sins:x therefore there are just seven Sacraments. God made man after his image:y therefore images must be set up in Churches. The chiefest of these is charity:z therefore we are justified more by charity than by faith. I will go,7 saith the Lord, to my place, until they ponder ⟨p. 270⟩in their heart, and seek my face: (which indeed he spakea ironically, and after the manner of men) therefore men may be converted unto the Lord, by their own mere will and disposition. The Lord commandeth us to do many things:b therefore those things may be performed of us. Christ descended to the dead: therefore he deliveredc the Fathers out of Limbus. The Church discerneth the Scriptures:d therefore the authority of the Church is greater than the authority of the Scriptures. Saint Paul commandeth the Thessalonians,12 that they keep the ordinances which they had learned: ⟨p. 271⟩thereforee all things are not written which are necessary to salvation.14 He himself shall be safe, yet as it were through fire: ftherefore men pass through the fire of Purgatory to life eternal.
Iames commaundeth that sicke persons should be anointed:s therefore we must now euer and anon anoint the sicke. This is a great mysterie:t therefore Matrimonie is a Sacrament. Elias and Iohn Baptist liued in the wildernesse:u therefore they inuented the manner of life and discipline of Monkes. There are seuen deadly sinnes:x therefore there are iust seuen Sacraments. God made man after his image:y therefore images must be set vp in Churches. The chiefest of these is charitie:z therefore we are iustified more by charitie than by faith. I will goe,7 saith the Lord, to my place, vntill they ponder ⟨p. 270⟩in their heart, and seeke my face: (which indeede he spakea ironically, and after the manner of men) therefore men may be conuerted vnto the Lord, by their owne meere will and disposition. The Lord commaundeth vs to doe many things:b therefore those things may be performed of vs. Christ descended to the dead: therefore he deliueredc the Fathers out of Limbus. The Church discerneth the Scriptures:d therefore the authoritie of the Church is greater than the authoritie of the Scriptures. Saint Paul commaundeth the Thessalonians,12 that they keepe the ordinances which they had learned: ⟨p. 271⟩thereforee
sDVR. The sick want health now as well as then, and therefore must now have the same helping remedy. WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a sign of healing in those times of extraordinary gifts in the Church; your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health; and so is frivolous.DVR. The sicke vvant health novv as vvell as then, and therefore must novv haue the same helping remedie. WHIT. pag. 763. Anointing was a signe of healing in those times of extraordinarie giftes in the Church; your anointing healeth nothing that wanteth health; and so is friuolous.
tDVR. The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte. WHIT. pag. 764. Nay, he himself expounds it of the mystical union between Christ and the Church.DVR. The Apostle speaketh that properly of Matrimonte. WHIT. pag. 764. Nay, he himselfe expoundes it of the mysticall vnion betweene Christ and the Church.
uDVR. These men left a famous example of Monkish life. WHIT. pag. 765. The Monks life is not proved by their examples: for Elijah was commanded to go into the desert during peril; they do that without both precept and peril: John Baptist indeed lived in the desert, but wherein men did dwell, to whom also he preached; and there were many cities and towns in that desert, Josh. 15.61. what is this to idle Monkish life?DVR. These men left a famous example of Monkish life. WHIT. pag. 765. The Monkes life is not proued by their examples: for Elias was commaunded to goe into the desert during perill; they doe that without both precept and perill: John Baptist indeede liued in the desert, but wherein men did dwell, to whom also he preached; and there were many cities and townes in that desert, Josh. 15.61. what is this to idle Monkish life?
xDVR. Name him that thus disputeth. WHIT. pag. 766. It is John L•d•wicke, in a book entitled. The golden work of true contrition, leaf 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church, &c.DVR. Name him that thus disputeth. WHIT. pag. 766. It is Iohn L•d•vvicke, in a booke intituled. The golden vvorke of true contrition, leafe 128. Where are abunuen sorts of men in the Church, &c.
To what purpose should I rehearse innumerable others your disputations like these? Now, Campian, let us hear a few of your own. Augustine wrote three books of free will: therefore Augustine approved that man hath free will. Christ was ignorant of some thing: therefore Christ was not without sin. The Fathers diligently searched the Scriptures: therefore it is never lawful to dissent from the Fathers.
To what purpose should I rehearse innumerable others your disputations like these? Now, Campian, let vs heare a few of your owne. Augustine wrote three bookes of free will: therefore Augustine approued that man hath free will. Christ was ignorant of some thing: therefore Christ was not without sinne. The Fathers diligently searched the Scriptures: therefore it is neuer lawfull to dissent from the Fathers.
doe desire to bee eased. For they which are whole desire not the Physitian. A contrite and broken hart is an acceptable sacrifice to God. wherefore they which haue greatest feeling of their sinnes and sorrow for them, to them that heauenly food is wont to bee most wholesome. Good Lord, who would euer thinke it might come to passe, that anie Christian should dislike these things! But is there any thing else?
who if he do absolue you but in iest, so as you beleeue, you are absolued. And why not? for it is not need full, either to number sins by our fingers, or to vse a Priest or a Frier, such a one as your selfe.
We may confesse our faults one to another, so as Friers may be idle hereafter. And whosoeuer beleeueth that his sinnes are forgiuen him, him saith it selfe absolues, whether he be absolued in iest or in earnest.
. that none can be justified by the works of the Law, but he that continueth in all things. Either then deny that any law was written touching small offences, or else confess that that curse belongeth to the least offences. If the Apostle had understood it as you do, the Galatians might have answered him, that they were free from those great sins, and so from the curse, and therefore might well hope to be justified by the Law. Finally if
. Christ hath freed us from the curse of the Law, shall we think that this is only, from the curse due to a few grievous sinners? I hope by this time, you see the error of your interpretation, which you have sucked from your corrupt masters.
DVR Moses denounceth not the cursse against the breaches of euery small precept, but to those only, vvhich he there reckoneth vp: vvhich vvere certainly very haynous sinnes. WHIT. pag. 708. If that curse be only proper to those, vvho are guilty of the sinnes there numbred and set dovvne, vvhat shall vve then thinke of blasphemers, adulterers, and of other horrible malefactors? are they free from this cursse? if this be impious and absurde, then must it be vnderstood of all, euen as many as do transgresse the Lavv. And so S. Paul interpreteth the place, vvho vndoubtedly vnderstood the meaning of Moses better then all Iesuites. For he instructing the Galathians, as concerning the iustice of the Lavv, proueth by this testimonie, Gal. 3.10. that none can be iustified by the vvorks of the Lavv, but he that continueth in all things. Either then deny that any lavv vvas vvritten touching small offences, or else confesse that that cursse belongeth to the least offences. If the Apostle had vnderstood it as you doe, the Galathians might haue ansvvered him, that they vvere free from those great sinnes, and so from the cursse, and therefore might vvell hope to be iustified by the Lavv. Finally if Gal. 3.13. Christ hath freed vs from the cursse of the Law, shall vve thinke that this is only, from the cursse due to a fevv grieuous sinners? I hope by this time, you see the error of your interpretation, which you haue sucked from your corrupt maisters.
pDVR. Yet Christ Math. 11.30. saith, My youke is easy and my burden light. And S. John. 1. Epist. 2.4. Ho that saith, I know him and keepeth not his Commandments, is alayr. WHIT. pag. 705. S. Joh. 1. Epist. 5.3.4. expoundeth the speech of Christ, His Commandments are not grievous: For all that is borne of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. This yoke then to those who have faith seameth not grievous, because they are inflamed with the love of Gods Law, neither fear they the curse of it because they are ingrafted by faith into Christians for the place of S. John, I answer; they are said to keep the Commandement•, who do their best enendevour to keep them. If any do think that he so keepeth them, that he is without all sin, that is, that he perfectly keepeth them, S. John calleth him a liar, 1. Joh. 1.8.DVR. Yet Christ Math. 11.30. saith, My youke is easie and my burden light. And S. Iohn. 1. Epist. 2.4. Ho that saith, I know him and keepeth not his Commandements, is alayr. WHIT. pag. 705. S. Ioh. 1. Epist. 5.3.4. expoundeth the speech of Christ, His Commandements are not grieuous: For all that is borne of God, ouercommeth the world: and this is the victorie that ouercommeth the world, euen our faith. This yoke then to those who haue faith seameth not grieuous, because they are inflamed with the loue of Gods Law, neither feare they the curse of it because they are ingrafted by faith into Christans for the place of S. Iohn, I answere; they are said to keepe the Commandement•, who do their best enendeuour to keepe them. If any do thinke that he so keepeth them, that hee is without all sinne, that is, that he perfectly keepeth them, S. Iohn calleth him a lyar, 1. Ioh. 1.8.
qDVR. If it be abrogated, how are we not freed from the obedience of it? If God require only that you believe; then by believing you fulfil the Law, and so have not only an imputed, but an inherent righteousness. WHIT. pag. 614. I say not, that the Law is simply abolished, but in some respect. Therefore it vvill not follow that we are freed from the obedience of it. Again, we say not, that faith fulfilleth the Law, as if it did perform perfect obedience to it, but because it layeth hold on Christ, who is the end and perfection of the Law, and on his righteousness. Therefore is it not an inherent, but an imputative justice.DVR. If it be abrogated, how are we not freed from the obedience of it? If God require only that you beleeue; then by beleeuing you fulfill the Lavv, and so haue not only an imputed, but an inherent righteousnes. WHIT. pag. 614. I say not, that the Law is simplie abolished, but in some respect. Therefore it vvill not follovv that vve are freed from the obedience of it. Againe, vvee say not, that faith fulfilleth the Law, as if it did performe perfect obediēce to it, but because it layeth hold on Christ, vvho is the end and perfection of the Lavv, and on his righteousnes. Therefore is it not an inherent, but an imputatiue iustice.
rDVR. Christ saith not as you write, but He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, Now they who are baptised, have received from God a good will to keep the whole Law, which they determine afterwards by the grace of Christ to observe. WHIT. pag. 715. The words of Christ confirm as ••ch as I brought them for. For Baptism is not a work of the Law, but a wale of faith. And Christ showeth that our salvation consisteth only in faith. And though the baptised frame theirlives according to the rule of the Law, and are endued with new wills and new strength, yet they do it not with that mind to justify themselves by their obedience before the Lord. Then should they lose the righteousness of faith, which doth not consist in our merits and good works, but is such as the Apostle describeth Rom. 4.5.DVR. Christ saith not as you write, but Hee that beleeueth and is baptised shall be saued, Now they who are baptised, haue receiued from God a good will to keepe the whole Law, which they determine afterwards by the grace of Christ to obserue. WHIT. pag. 715. The words of Christ confirme as ••ch as I brought them for. For Baptisme is not a worke of the Law, but a wale of faith. And Christ sheweth that our saluation consisteth only in faith. And though the baptised frame theirliues according to the rule of the Law, and are endued with new wills and new strength, yet they do it not with that mind to iustifie themselues by their obedience before the Lord. Then should they lose the righteousnes of faith, which doth not consist in our merits and good vvorkes, but is such as the Apostle describeth Rom. 4.5.
sDVR. This is your new Divinity, that we should be freed from the curse of the Law, which we cannot fully obey, when as Christ at the last shall pronounce the curse against those who have not obered And Christ (as S. Paul saith) hath freed us from the curse, because by his death be •ath deserved grace for us, whereby we may keep the Law. WHIT. pag. 713. This is your ignorance in Divinity. For who is ignorant of that, which the Apostle affirmeth plainly, Gal. 3.13. that Christ hath freed us from the curse of the Law? Though then we cannot fully keep the Law, yet being ingrafted into Christ, and he communicating his righteousness unto us, we escape the curse of the Law. At the last day it is no marvel if Christ pronounce the curse of the Law against the reprobates, who never were freed from the cursle. And if Christ by his death brought us grace to keep the Law, why might not the Galatians have kept the Law, and obtained righteousness by it? But the Apostle showeth them, that Christ took the cursle, because he took both the sin and the punishment upon him, & not that thereby he procured thē grace to fulfil the Law.DVR. This is your new Diuinitie, that vvee should be freed from the cursse of the Lavv, vvhich vvee cannot fully obey, vvhen as Christ at the last shall pronounce the cursse against those vvho haue not obered And Christ (as S. Paul saith) hath freed vs from the cursse, because by his death be •ath deserued grace for vs, vvhereby we may keepe the Lavv. WHIT. pag. 713. This is your ignorance in Diuinity. For who is ignorant of that, which the Apostle affirmeth plainely, Gal. 3.13. that Christ hath freed vs from the cursse of the Law? Though then we cannot fully keepe the Law, yet being ingrafted into Christ, and he communicating his righteousnes vnto vs, wee escape the cursse of the Lavv. At the last day it is no maruell if Christ pronounce the cursse of the Law against the reprobates, vvho neuer vvere freed from the cursle. And if Christ by his death brought vs grace to keepe the Law, why might not the Galathians haue kept the Lavv, and obtained righteousnes by it? But the Apostle shevveth them, that Christ tooke the cursle, because he tooke both the sinne and the punishment vpon him, & not that therby he procured thē grace to fulfill the Law.
tDVR. Jn those who are justified, God much respecteth their works, as in Abraham Jam 2.21. and 1. Joh. 3.7. And in Phinehas, Psal. 106.31. his work imputed for righteousness. WHIT. pag. 716. To the places of Saint James and Saint John you have been answered before. The fact of Phinehas proceeded from faith, and so the praise of it to be given to faith, not to the work. If you accounted of Thomas, as you make show of, your judgment would be sounder in these things. For thus he writeth on Galat. 3. Works are not the cause that any one is just before God. but they are affects and manifestations of righteousness. Neither Luther, not any of us say any more.DVR. Jn those vvho are iustified, God much respecteth their vvorkes, as in Abraham Iam 2.21. and 1. Ioh. 3.7. And in Phinehas, Psal. 106.31. his vvorke imputed for righteousnes. WHIT. pag. 716. To the places of Saint Iames and Saint Iohn you haue been ansvvered before. The fact of Phin•ha• proceeded from faith, and so the praise of it to bee giuen to faith, not to the worke. If you accounted of Th•mas, as you make shew of, your iudgment vvould bee sounder in these things. For thus he vvriteth on Galat. 3. VVorkes are not the cause that any one is iust before God. but they are aff•ctes and manifestations of righteousnes. Neither Luther, not any of vs say any more.
uDVR. The Prophet saith not that a man is just, because be beleeneth, but that be who is just, doth live by his faith, that is, doth uphold himself by his faith, and sainteth not. It is as absurd to be just by another mans justice, as to live by another mans life. WHIT. pag. 716. I could admit of your exposition, but that I am persuaded the Apostle understood the Prophers mind beaver then you. For the Apostle hath used it to prove, that we are justified by faith, and not by the works of the Law: no not by those which are wrought after faith; for thus he reasoneth, Gal. 3.11. That […] man is justified by the Law in the sight of God, it is evident, for the just shall live by faith. And the Law is not of faith. What hath he concluded but that you demy? that is, that the Prophet hath said, that a man is justified, because he believeth. So Chrysast in Gal. 3. showeth that saith justifieth by the testi•••nie of the Prophet Abakuk. Which if it were not, what concerneth it the Galatians, who were endued with faith, and joined their works with their faith. If it be absurd to be just by another mans righteousness, I pray you tell me, how the Scripture calleth Christ both the curse and sin? As for us we had rather be absurd with the holy Ghost, then wise with you.DVR. The Prophet saith not that a man is iust, because be beleeneth, but that be vvho is iust, doth liue by his faith, that is, doth vphold himselfe by his faith, and sainteth not. It is as absurd to be iust by another mans iustice, as to liue by another mans life. WHIT. pag. 716. I could admit of your exposition, but that I am persvvaded the Apostle vnderstood the Prophers mind beuer then you. For the Apostle hath vsed it to proue, that we are iustified by faith, and not by the workes of the Law: no not by those which are wrought after faith; for thus he reasoneth, Gal. 3.11. That 〈…〉 man is iustified by the Law in the sight of God, it is euident, for the iust shall liue by faith. And the Law is not of faith. What hath he concluded but that you demy? that is, that the Prophet hath said, that a man is iustified, because hee beleeueth. So Chrysast in Gal. 3. sheweth that saith iustifieth by the testi•••nie of the Prophet Abakuk. Which if it were not, what concerneth it the Galathians, who vvere endued vvith faith, and ioyned their vvorkes vvith their faith. If it be absurd to be iust by another mans righteousnes, I pray you tel me, hovv the Scripture calleth Christ both the cursse and sinne? As for vs we had rather be absurd vvith the holy Ghost, then vvise vvith you.
*DVR. Then where is your faith which assureth you of the remission of your sins, and quiteth all your troubled thoughts? But holy men diligently prepared themselves, and so came to this Sacrament. having quiet minds, free from guilt of sin. And in the Primitive times they who had fallen, were not admitted to the Eucharist, but after confession & full satisfaction made for their sins. And then a Deacon was wont to cry. Holy things are for holy men. WHIT. pag. 718. You have not tasted what true faith is, if you think all sorrows & doubts are removed, so soon as faith is begotten. The Prophet often remembereth his sorrows, Psal. 42.5.6. & 32.4. And this all the faithful have experience of, and yet are upheld by their faith. They are the best prepared who have the greatest sorrows for their sins, and in the word and Sacrament seek a salve for them. For wherefore was the supper ordained, but to strengthen and confirm our faith. Therefore the best prepared have many temptations and sorrows in themselves. The custom of the Church proveth nothing against this. For will you account them wicked and profane, whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrows for their sins? So shall you wickedly condemn the most holy servants of God.DVR. Then where is your faith which assureth you of the remission of your sinnes, and quiteth all your troubled thoughts? But holy men diligently prepared themselues, and so came to this Sacrament. hauing quiet minds, free frō guilt of sinne. And in the Primitiue times they who had fallen, were not admitted to the Eucharist, but after cō fession & full satisfaction made for their sins. And then a Deacon was wont to crie. Holy things are for holy men. WHIT. pag. 718. You haue not tasted what true faith is, if you thinke all sorrowes & doubts are remoued, so soone as faith is begotten. The Prophet often remembreth his sorrowes, Psal. 42.5.6. & 32.4. And this all the faithfull haue experience of, and yet are vpheld by their faith. They are the best prepared who haue the greatest sorrowes for their sins, and in the word and Sacrament seeke a salue for them. For wherefore was the supper ordained, but to strengthen and confirme our faith. Therfore the best prepared haue many temptations and sorrowes in themselues. The custome of the Church proueth nothing against this. For will you account them wicked and prophane, whose consciences are frighted with the sense and bitter sorrowes for their sinnes? So shall you wickedly condemne the most holie seruants of God.
xDVR. Who knoweth not that the Novatians were condemned of the whole Church for denying this authority to the Priests? And that it was an old custom of the Church, as Tertullian hath it, that penitentials were sent to none but to the Priests: to whom, as Ambrole, Hierome, & Chrysostom writ, the keys and power of binding and loosing are committed. WHIT. pag. 720. That you speak of the Novatians and the custom of the Church toucheth not Luther, for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church: did Luther ever any such thing? or did he ever reprove the custom of the Church, that they who had offended publicly, did publicly testive their repentance. It was a private auricular confession of all sins which he reproved, which is without testimony either of Scripture of sincere Antiquity: which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon. For the Fathers by which you would establish your keys, we have against them Augustine in Joan. tract. 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18.DVR. VVho knoweth not that the Nouatians vvere condemned of the vvhole Church for denying this authoritie to the Priests? And that it vvas an old custome of the Church, as Tertullian hath it, that penitentials vvere sent to none but to the Priests: to whom, as Ambrole, Hierome, & Chrysostome writ, the keyes and power of binding and loosing are committed. WHIT. pag. 720. That you speake of the Nouatians and the custome of the Church toucheth not Luther, for they admitted neither repentance not confession in the Church: did Luther euer any such thing? or did he euer reproue the custome of the Church, that they who had offended publikely, did publikely testiue their repentance. It was a priuate auricular confession of all sinnes which hee reproued, which is without testimonie either of Scripture of sincere Antiquitie: which made Nectarius Bishop of Constantinople put it out of the Church for the offence of a Deacon. For the Fathers by which you would establish your keyes, we haue against them Augustine in Ioan. tract. 124. and Theophil in Matth. 18.
yDVR. Uvhat is then more manifest then that he may give a Sacrament which never intended […]? We believe that Priests as Judges can absolve the guilty from their sins. WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth upon no mans will, and faith bringeth remission of sins, another mans will cannot hinder, but that they who believe, may have the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion, Mat. 8.13. is to every man▪ As thou believest, so b••t ••to thee, & not as another will. If absolution were then in the Ministers will, it should not be as men believe, but as their Minister thinketh: than which nothing can be more abs••d. What skilleth it, whether the Minister be in •est or earnest? if I believe seriously his jest shall not hurt me. And what is more miserable, then to ba•g the dignity of the Sacrament upon the thought and intention of the Minister? which if it were true of Sacraments, yet what is that to absolution, which never was a Sacrament? whereas you say you believe that the Pries•• do absolve men, as Judges do, I do not find fault with it. And such •u•ges are they, as Priests under the Law were of diseases. The chief Pr••st judged of the Leprosy, which he neither inflicted nor cured. So the Minister doth pronounce and judge all believers to be absolved, and the contrary upon the wicked and unbelievers.DVR. ƲVhat is then more manifest then that hee may giue a Sacrament which neuer intēded 〈…〉? VVe beleeue that Priests as Iudges can absolue the guilty from their sins. WHIT pag. 722. When as faith dependeth vpon no mans will, and faith bringeth remission of sins, another mans will cānot hinder, but that they who beleeue, may haue the pardon of their sins For that to the Centurion, Mat. 8.13. is to eu•ry man▪ As thou beleeuest, so b••t ••to thee, & not as another wil. If absolution were then in the Ministers will, it should not be as men beleeue, but as their Minister thinketh: than vvhich nothing can be more abs••d. What skilleth it, vvhether the Minister be in •est or earnest? if I beleeue seriously his iest shall not hurt mee. And what is more mi•erable, then to ba•g the dignitie of the Sacrament vpon the thought and intention of the Minister? which if it were true of Sacramēts, yet what is that to absolution, which neuer was a Sacramēt? wheras you say you beleeue that the Pries•• do absolue men, as Iudges do, I do not find fault with it. And such •u•ges are they, as Priests vnder the Law were of diseases. The chiefe Pr••st iudged of the Leprosie, which he neither inflicted nor cured. So the Minister doth pronounce and iudge all beleeuers to be absolued, and the contrarie vpon the wicked and vnbeleeuers.
.13. WHIT. pag. 730. To the first I answer, that some things may be done, whereunto we are not bound in conscience: we must •bey humane and politic laws, because they are necessary for peace and public tranquillity. Yet we must distinguish humane laws from Divine. For the Laws of God must simply be obeyed without any difference of time, place and circumstance: but the laws of men as he circumstances require. For example, he that is a Roman and liveth at Rome must obey the Roman laws? If he go into Persia, he is not bound to keep there the Roman lawea upon any necessity. Then they bind not the conscience, for then should they in all places bind alike. 2. That Law of the Apostles did not simply bind the conscience, but in respect of the weak brother lest he should be offended: whom the law of God bindeth not to offend. Again this was the law, not of men, but of the spirit of God. 3. For the places of S. Paul and S. Peter, I answer, the Apostles doth not ensnare the conscience with every particular precept of the Magistrate, but they speak of his authority, which is sacred and holy, and cannot with any good conscience be contemned. It is the commandment of God, that we obey Magistrates, and this doth bind the conscience: in general therefore he is to be obeyed for conscience sake; but his particular laws do not bind the conscience. Again, when we observe their particular laws, we do not so stand upon the precepts, as if doing of them would quiet the conscience and satisfy it: but we look to the end, that is, the will of God, which commandeth obedience to honest and just laws.
DVR. It they be bound to obey, hovv are their consciences free from the religion of them? Jf vvas a humane lavv, Act. 15.20. touching, strangled and blood. And Rom. 13.2.5. and 1. Pet. 2.13.13. WHIT. pag. 730. To the first I answere, that some things may be done, vvhereunto vve are not bound in conscience: vve must •bey humane and politike lavves, because they are necessary for peace and publike tranquillitie. Yet vve must distinguish humane lavves from Diuine. For the Lawes of God must simplie bee obeyed without any difference of time, place and circumstance: but the lawes of men as he circumstances require. For example, he that is a Romane and liueth at Rome must obey the Romane lavves? If hee goe into Persia, he is not bound to keepe there the Romane lavvea vpon any necessitie. Then they bind not the conscience, for then should they in all places bind alike. 2. That Law of the Apostles did not simplie binde the conscience, but in respect of the weake brother lest he should be offended: vvhom the lavv of God bindeth not to offend. Againe this was the law, not of mē, but of the spirit of God. 3. For the places of S. Paul and S. Peter, I answere, the Apostles doth not insnare the conscience vvith euery particular precept of the Magistrate, but they speake of his authoritie, which is sacred and holy, and cannot with any good conscience bee contemned. It is the commandement of God, that we obey Magistrates, and this doth bind the conscience: in generall therefore he is to be obeyed for conscience sake; but his particular lawes do not bind the conscience. Againe, when we obserue their particular lawes, wee doe not so stand vpon the precepts, as if doing of them would quiet the conscience and satisfie it: but wee looke to the end, that is, the will of God, vvhich commandeth obedience to honest and iust lavves.
haue already perused it, and I thinke worse of your side then I did before. Tush, saith he for all that the matter is most plaine; proue me that, say I: because (saith he) we swarue not a finger breadth from the word of God.
Pope must
⟨p. 267⟩
beare both swords. The seruant is not aboue his master: therefore
man to life eternall, but with respect of merits. S.
•
•
•
DVR. This argument is good and can haue no shew of error. For, aboue all men, a Priest must be chaste, saith Origen, Homil. 6 4. in Leuit. Also Ierome and Ambrose, and Epiphanius taught the same WHIT. pag. 736. Yea you er•e and mistake S. Paul in theree things: 1. What he wrote to all Christians, you expound of Lay-men only. 2. He speaketh only of extraordinarie fasts & prayer, but you applie it vnto all sorts thereof. That the Apostle speaketh of extraordinarie, appeares, 1. Because he hath ioyned fasting with them, 1. Cor. 7.5.2. Because Christ and his Apostle haue commanded all to pray continually, and so all ought to l•ue a single life. 3. From a short abstinence of Lay-men, you childishly would proue a perpetuall single life to be necessary for Ministers. You abuse also Origens words, (& play the heretike) as if chastitie were contrary to matrimony; whereas the Fathers of the Nicene Councell, consented to Paphnutius, who said openly, that society with a lavvfull wi•e, is chastitie: Socrates lib. 1. cap. 11. Jerome indeed disputed too sophistically against matrimony, seeking victory more then verity, as himself confessed. Ambr•se and Epiphanius disswaded Ministers only from second m••riages, allowing their fi•st.
6Distinct. 28 Decernimus
dDVR. Tertullian used this same argument against second marriage. WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus, (as all the learned know) condemning second marriages, of uncleanness, not only in Ministers, but in all Christians: yet he himself being a Priest, was married, and lived with his wife, continuing his Ministry: so that he neither judged marriage to be uncleanness, nor unlawful in Ministers, simply; but only second marriages.DVR. Tertullian vsed this same argument against second marriage. WHIT. pag. 739. Tertullian therein erred with Montanus, (as all the learned know) condemning second marriages, of vncleannes, not only in Ministers, but in all Christians: yet he himselfe being a Priest, was married, and liued with his wife, continuing his Ministery: so that he neither iudged marriage to be vncleanenes, nor vnlavvfull in Ministers, simplie; but only second marriages.
8Harding and Dorman and others.
cDVR. The Pope challengeth no Lordship over the Churches, but professeth himself the severuant of Gods servants. WHIT. pag. 740. But his dee•s bewray his tyranny: for he prescribeth, commandeth, threateneth, punisheth, and doth whatsoever any Lord can do. DVR. You can disprove this consequent by no argument. WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument, like these; Every several man hath one head; therefore all men must have one head: Every several flock hath his shepherd; therefore all flocks must have one to rule them. Again: no one man can possibly teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithful Pastor should, and may do in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed all particular Churches, which can never be made one visible body, and therefore can have none but Christ the general head and Pastor over them. DVR. Jerome, Cyprian, and Ireneus, have written the same we do. WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them. First, Jerome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church, not as a matter of accessitie, but of conveniency, to prevent schisms: and saith, that the Church is founded upon all the Apostles alike, and that every one equally hath received the keys of the kingdom of heaven; even in that place where you quote him: (against Jovinian, lib. 1.) Secondly, Cyprian concludeth only, that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and never thought upon the Popes primacy; but saith plainly, that every particular Bishop hath all whatsoever any one hath by right; in the same book which you allege, of the Churches unity. Lastly, Ireneus called the Roman, the chief Church, not for any superiority, but because she excelled all others in constancy, largeness, fame, and soundness of faith.DVR. The Pope challengeth no Lordship ouer the Churches, but professeth himselfe the seueruant of Gods seruants. WHIT. pag. 740. But his dee•s bewray his tyranny: for he prescribeth, commandeth, threatneth, punisheth, and doth whatsoeuer any Lord can do. DVR. You can dispro•e this consequent by no argument. WHIT. pag. 741. It is an absurd argument, like these; Euery seuerall man hath one head; therefore all men must haue one head: Euery seuerall flocke hath his shepheard; therefore all flockes must haue one to rule them. Againe: no one man can possiblie teach and feed the whole Church with the Word and Sacrament as a faithfull Pastor should, and may doe in a particular Church Christ only can thus feed al particular Churches, which can neuer be made one visible body, and therefore can haue none but Christ the generall head and Pastor ouer them. DVR. Ierome, Cyprian, and Ireneus, haue written the same we doe. WHIT. pag 742. Not one of them. First, Ierome defendeth the superiority of one Pastor in the Church, not as a matter of accessitie, but of conueniency, to preuent schismes: and saith, that the Church is founded vpon all the Apostles alike, and that euery one equally hath receiued the keies of the kingdome of heauen; euen in that place where you quote him: (against Iouinian, lib. 1.) Secondly, Cyprian cōcludeth only, that there should be but one Pastor in one Church and neuer thought vpon the Popes primacie; but saith plainly, that euery particular Bishop hath all whatsoeuer any one hath by right; in the same booke which you alleadge, of the Churches vnity. Lastly, Ireneus called the Romane, the chiefe Church, not for any superiority, but because she excelled all others in constancie, largenes, fame, and soundnes of faith.
fDVR. Jt is manifest by this place, that Christ gave greater authority of feeding to Peter, than to the other Apostles, and so made him head of all his Church. WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow upon this place, that Peter had greater authority to feed, or that he only must feed all: for he said to them all alike, Matth. 28.19. Go ye, teach all nations: and Job. 20 21. As the Father sent me, so I send you: Therefore he spake so often then to Peter, to confirm him after his grievous fall, that he might not doubt of his Apostolical calling, as saith Augustines treatise on John 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope.DVR. Jt is manifest by this place, that Christ gaue greater authoritie of feeding to Peter, than to the other Apostles, and so made him head of all his Church. WHIT. p. 744. It will not follow vpon this place, that Peter had greater authority to feed, or that he only must feede all: for he said to them all alike, Matth. 28.19. Goe yee, teach all nations: and Iob. 20 21. As the Father sent me, so I send you: Therefore he spake so often then to Peter, to confirme him after his grieuous fall, that he might not doubt of his Apostolicall calling, as saith Augustines treatise on Iohn 123. so that it no whit concerneth the Pope.
gDVR. The Pope useth this as a similitude to amplify, not as an argument to prove by authority. WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift; a similitude is an argument, and Johannes Andraeas would prove hereby, that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignity, seventy times seven degrees.DVR. The Pope vseth this as a similitude to amplifie, not as an argument to prooue by authoritie. WHIT. pag. 746. This is an idle shift; a similitude is an argument, and Johannes Andraeas would prooue hereby, that the Pope excelleth the Emperor in dignitie, seuentie times seuen degrees.
hDVR. We gather nothing hence, but what Bernard did: saying, This sword (of temporal power) is thine also, happily at thy command, though not to be drawn with thy hand: speaking to the Pope. WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophism, bu• yet he fathereth it upon Bernard, which also Johannes a Capistrano (of the Pope and Councels, p 77.) and others of them have handled▪ and Pope Boniniface girt himself with a sword in sign hereof: but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power.DVR. VVe gather nothing hence, but vvhat Bernard did: saying, This sword (of temporall povver) is thine also, happily at thy commaund, though not to be drawne with thy hand: speaking to the Pope. WHIT. pag. 747. Duraeus is ashamed of this sophisme, bu• yet he fathereth it vpon Bernard, which also Iohannes a Capistrano (of the Pope and Councels, p 77.) and others of them haue handled▪ and Pope Boniniface girt himselfe with a sword in signe hereof: but this place speaketh nothing at all for any such power.
iDVR. What Catholic ever taught, or wrote thus? howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said. The chief seat is judged of no man. WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholic who saith (Dist. 40. si P•pa) The Pope may be reproved of no mortal man, though he lead with him innumerable people unto hell. And who knoweth not these two pillars of Popery; the Church of Rome cannot err, whatsoever it teacheth: and the Pope may not be accused whatsoever •e doth? The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synod spake to Marcellinus the Pope, who had denied Christ, and committed Idolatry, and might be accused by the Popes own laws, so that in citing that authority, you contradict both your self and your laws.DVR. What Catholike euer taught, or wrote thus? howbeit the Fathers of the Sinuessan Councell said. The chiefe seate is iudged of no man. WHIT. pag. 749. Thus you will make the Pope no Catholike who saith (Dist. 40. si P•pa) The Pope may bee reproued of no mortall man, though he leade with him innumerable people vnto hell. And who knoweth not these two pillers of Popery; the Church of Rome cannot erre, whatsoeuer it teacheth: and the Pope may not be accused whatsoeuer •e doth? The Bishops of the Sinuessan Synode spake to Marcellinus the Pope, who had denied Christ, and committed Idolatrie, and might bee accused by the Popes owne lawes, so that in citing that authoritie, you contradict both your selfe and your lawes.
kDVR. Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth, and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not fail; by force whereof the Pope cannot err: as Augustine and Cyprian also perceived. WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar, nor doth it follow; Peters faith failed not, therefore no Popes faith hath failed, who are his successors: for Popes have done, and may fall into heresies, as you will confess; and may err in faith, saith Pope Boniface (D•st 40. Papa:) which he could not do it this argument of yours were true. Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles, and the whole Church: shall we say Christs prayer was less effectual for the rest then for Peter? If it be not, then none of their successors could err no more then Peters: which I suppose you will not affirm. And Augustine, and Cyprian never reasoned as you do; you abuse their names.DVR. Christ made Peter his Vicar on earth, and by his prayer obtained that his Vicars faith might not faile; by force vvherof the Pope cannot erre: as Augustine and Cyprian also perceiued. WHIT pag. 750. It is not true that Christ made Peter his Vicar, nor doth it follow; Peters faith failed not, therefore no Popes faith hath failed, who are his successors: for Popes haue done, and may fall into heresies, as you will confesse; and may erre in faith, saith Pope Boniface (D•st 40. Papa:) which he could not do it this argument of yours vvere true. Further Christ prayed for all his Apostles, and the whole Church: shal we say Christs prayer was lesse effectuall for the rest then for Peter? If it be not, then none of their successors could erre no more then Peters: which I suppose you will not affirme. And Augustine, and Cyprian neuer reasoned as you do; you abuse their names.
lDVR. If you believed the Prophet Malachi, or the Mass, you would confess this argument to be good. WHIT pag. 753. You can never prove your Mass by the Prophet Malachi, who speaketh of the prayers of the godly, as Tertullian, Eusebius, and Jerome expound him: and if the Mass were a sacrifice indeed, (as you call it) the peoples negligence, is no sufficient cause to make it private, and yet to profit the people, yea though they be absent: you may aswell abuse the Word it self so; and say it is enough, when it is in public, it the Priest handle it and hear it, and believe it alone, yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing, may be saved by it.DVR. If you beleeued the Prophet Malachie, or the Masse, you vvould confesse this argument to be good. WHIT pag. 753. You can neuer proue your Masse by the Prophet Malachie, who speaketh of the prayers of the godly, as Tertullian, Eusebius, and Jerome expound him: and if the Masse were a sacrifice indeed, (as you call it) the peoples negligence, is no sufficient cause to make it priuate, and yet to profit the people, yea though they be absent: you may aswel abuse the Word it selfe so; and say it is inough, when it is in publike, it the Priest handle it and heare it, and beleeue it alone, yet the people being absent and not dreaming of any such thing, may be saued by it.
mDVR. The people also receive the whole Sacrament, under one kind. WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so; as though one part of a thing, were the whole; or, as if Christ appointing both bread and wine, ordained more then a whole Sacrament: that Pope was wiser, which said of certain heretics that refrained from the Cup, as you do•, (De concil. dist. 2. cap. Comperimus:) Let them either receive the whole Sacrament, or refuse all. DVR. Christs words, Drink ye all of this, prove n•t that all Christians must do so. WHIT. pag. 755. They do prove it, as those words, take eat, do prove that all must eat: and you may as well keep both the elements from the people, as one, contrary to S. Paul, 1. Cor. 11.23. DVR. The Passover might be eaten without wine. WHIT. pag. 756. It might, because God had not commanded wine, but Christ himself commandeth it in his Supper, 1. Cor. 11.45. DVR. The common people are a•t bound to drink of the Cap: for S. Paul saith, As oft as ye drink it, to signify they were not commanded so to do. WHIT. So he saith of the bread also, As of, as ye eat, 1. Cor. 11.26. so that, by your argument, neither is the bread commanded them.DVR. The people also receiue the vvhole Sacrament, vnder one kind. WHIT pag. 754. It is childish dotage to say so; as though one part of a thing, were the vvhole; or, as if Christ appointing both bread and wine, ordained more then a whole Sacrament: that Pope was wiser, vvhich said of certaine heretikes that refrained from the Cup, as you do•, (De concil. dist. 2. cap. Comperimus:) Let them either receiue the vvhole Sacrament, or refuse all. DVR. Christs vvords, Drinke yee all of this, proue n•t that all Christians must doe so. WHIT. pag. 755. They doe proue it, as those vvords, take eate, doe proue that all must eate: and you may as vvell keepe both the elements from the people, as one, contrarie to S. Paul, 1. Cor. 11.23. DVR. The Passeouer might be eaten vvithout vvine. WHIT. pag. 756. It might, because God had not commaunded vvine, but Christ himselfe commaundeth it in his Supper, 1. Cor. 11.45. DVR. The common people are a•t bound to drinke of the Cap: for S. Paul saith, As oft as ye drinke it, to signifie they were not commanded so to doe. WHIT. So he saith of the bread also, As of, as yee eate, 1. Cor. 11.26. so that, by your argument, neither is the bread commanded them.
nDVR. No Catholic doth so reason; we say, that title had in it a mystery: and Augustine proveth by it, that the word, coessential, [Greek or Hebrew], may be used in the Creed. WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus, as all men know which read their writings, though you be ashamed of it. Tell us what mystery you mean, if it be worth the labour; as for Augustine, he speaks no word that makes here for your cause, yet you blush not to quote him.DVR. No Catholike doth so reason; we say, that title had in it a mysterie: and Augustine proueth by it, that the vvord, coessent•all, 〈non-Latin alphabet〉, may be vsed in the Creede. WHIT. pag. 757. Papists often reason thus, as all men knovve which read their writings, though you bee ashamed of it. Tell vs what mysterie you meane, if it bee worth the labour; as for Augustine, hee speakes no word that makes here for your cause, yet you blush not to quote him.
18Harding.
oDVR. We say not, that all, but that some of the people may not have the Scriptures committed to them. WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that wisdom is to be used in teaching the people; and that they which show themselves dogs, and hogs, must be barred from the Scriptures: but this is nothing to the present question; whether this reason be good, which Papists sometimes use: and which here you should have spoken to, and not thus wander.DVR. VVe say not, that all, but that some of the people may not haue the Scriptures committed to them. WHIT. pag. 758. Who doubteth but that vvisedome is to be vsed in teaching the people; and that they vvhich shevv themselues dogges, and hogges, must be barred from the Scriptures: but this is nothing to the present question; vvhether this reason be good, vvhich Papists sometimes vse: and vvhich here you should haue spoken to, and not thus vvander.
pDVR. Christ said it way his body. WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an usual phrase of Scripture, called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified, because of the sacramental joint receiving of both, to wit, of the bread with the mouth, and of his body by faith. Again, if that which was in Christs hands were his real body, when he said so, then was transubstantiation before (which you deny) and then he had two bodies: but if it were bread, then is there a metonymy in his words, as we truly say.DVR. Christ said it vvay his bodie. WHIT. pag. 759. Christ by an vsuall phrase of Scripture, called the thing signifying by the name of the thing signified, because of the sacramentall ioint receiuing of both, to vvit, of the bread vvith the mouth, and of his bodie by faith. Againe, if that vvhich vvas in Christs hands vvere his reall body, vvhen he said so, then vvas transubstantiation before (vvhich you deny) and then he had tvvo bodies: but if it vvere bread, then is there a metonymie in his vvords, as vvee truly say.
qDVR. Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture. WHIT p. 761. That is false: they teach only, that we must worship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament; not the mysteries and Sacrament themselves.DVR. Ambrose and Augustine reasoned so from this Scripture. WHIT p. 761. That is false: they teach onely, that vve must vvorship Christ in the mysteries and Sacrament; not the my•teries and Sacrament themselues.
22Pighius.
rDVR. That was Pighius his error: but the judgement of Catholic Universities is, that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination. WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in words, but indeed many of your Schools defend him: saying, the kingdom of heaven is prepared for them which have merited it by their good works.DVR. That vvas Pighius his error: but the iudgement of Catholike Vniuersities is, that foreseeing of merits is no cause of Predestination. WHIT. pag. 762. Thus you fall from your champion Pighius in vvords, but indeed many of your Schooles defend him: saying, the kingdome of heauen is prepared for them vvhich haue merited it by their good works.
all things are not written which are necessarie to saluation.
therefore men passe thorow the fire of Purgatorie to life eternall.
yDVR. Pope Adrian proveth not the use of images by this place, but saith it was signified by it. WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confess he allegeth that Scripture to prove the use of images was signified by it, and who but a superstitious doctor, would have done so?DVR. Pope Adrian proueth not the vse of images by this place, but saith it vvas signified by it. WHIT. pag. 767. Then you confesse he alleageth that Scripture to proue the vse of images was signified by it, and who but a superstitious doctor, would haue done so?
zDVR. The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest virtue. WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things prefer charity before faith, but only because it endureth in the life to come, when we shall not need faith, as Chrysostom expounds it: now faith only apprehends Christ our righteousness, and therein excelleth charity. Lastly, you err grossly in effect, ascribing our justification to the merit of virtue in us; which only is merited by Jesus Christ.DVR. The chiefest gift must come from the chiefest vertue. WHIT. pag. 768. S. Paul 1. Cor. 13. doth not in all things preferre charitie before faith, but onely because it indureth in the life to come, when wee shall not neede faith, as Chrysostome expoundes it: now faith onely apprehends Christ our righteousnesse, and therein excelleth charitie. Lastly, you erre grossely in effect, ascribing our iust•fication to the merit of vertue in vs; vvhich onely is merited by Iesus Christ.
aDVR. Do you think that God calleth men to repentance ironically. WHIT. pag. 799. No; but when men will not seek God, being called thereto by his bounty; no marvel though he withdraw it from them, and (as it were) laugh at their madness: of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures.DVR. Do you thinke that God calleth men to repentace ironically. WHIT. pag. 799. No; but when men will not se•k God, being called thereto by his bountie; no maruaile though hee withdraw it from them, and (as it were) laugh at their madnes: of which ironies there be many examples in Scriptures.
bDVR. Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thin•s. WHIT. pag. 770. He expoundeth his own meaning, that Adam before his fall could, and that we in heaven shall be able to keep all Gods commandments; but he often saith, that no man in this life can fulfil the Law of God. DVR. Men use not to make laws impossible to be kept. WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans: Again, when these laws were first given, man could perform them, and we must not look that God should alter them to fit our corruption. DVR▪ God could not justly punish lawbreakers, if they could not keep it. WHIT. pag. 771. Answer then Eusebius, (Evangelical demonst. lib. 1) who saith, that Moses Law was impossible to be kept of any man: And Thomas Aquinas, upon Gal. 3. sect. 4. saying: Moses commanded many things, which no man could fulfil.DVR. Augustine denieth that God hath commanded impossible thin•s. WHIT. pag. 770. Hee expoundeth his owne meaning, that Adam before his fall could, and that we in heauen shal be able to keepe all Gods commandements; but he often saith, that no man in this life can fulfill the Law of God. DVR. Men vse not to make lavves impossible to be kept. WHIT. We must not measure Gods doing by mans: Againe, when these lawes were first giuen, man could performe them, and vvee must not looke that God should alter them to fit our corruption. DVR▪ God could not iustly punish lavvbreakers, if they could not keepe it. WHIT. pag. 771. Answere then Eusebius, (Euangelicall demonst. lib. 1) who saith, that Moses Lavv vvas impossible to be kept of any man: And Thomas Aquinas, vpon Gal. 3. sect. 4. saying: Moses commaunded many things, vvhich no man could fulfill.
cDVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel, but to deliver the Fathers from Limbus? WHIT. pag. 772. Nay, first prove you that he did go so to hell, as you think; for my part I believe it not, but that his soul went presently to heaven. Again, you beg the question, saying, he went to hell to deliver the Fathers. DVR. I prove it by these Scriptures: Zac. 9.11. Psal 68.18. Heb. 9.8. WHIT. Zachary speaketh only of the Jews delivery from the captivity of Babylon. David speaketh of Christs ascending into heaven, and triumph over his enemies; and you childishly infer hereupon, therefore he descended to hell to deliver the Patriarchs from Limbus: but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrews, the true sense whereof is; that we are not reconciled to God, by the Jewish sacrifices, but by Christ; therefore you infer, that none of the Patriarchs went to heaven, until Christ came out of hell, and opened heaven by his bodily ascension.DVR Tell me for what other cause Christ went into bel, but to deliuer the Fathers from Limbus? WHIT. pag. 772. Nay, first proue you that he did go so to hel, as you thinke; for my part I beleeue it not, but that his soule went presently to heauen. Againe, you begge the question, saying, he went to hell to deliuer the Fathers. DVR. I proue it by these Scriptures: Zac. 9.11. Psal 68.18. Heb. 9.8. WHIT. •acharie speaketh only of the Iewes deliuery from the captiuitie of Babylon. Dauid speaketh of Christs ascending into heauen, and triumph ouer his enemies; and you childishly inferre hereupon, therefore he descended to hell to deliuer the Patriarkes from Limbus: but most ridiculously you abuse that place to the Hebrewes, the true sense whereof is; that we are not reconciled to God, by the Iewish sacrifices, but by Christ; therefore you inferre, that none of the Patriarkes vvent to heauen, vntill Christ came out of hell, and opened heauen by his bodilie ascension.
dDVR. Catholics say not so. WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so; for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth: and constraineth all Christians to rest therein, be it never so false, and contrary to the Scriptures; else it doth condemn him for an heretic.DVR. Catholikes say not so. WHIT. pag. 773 But your false Church doth so; for it interpreteth Scriptures as it listeth: and constraineth all Christians to rest therein, bee it neuer so false, and contrarie to the Scriptures; else it doth condemne him for an heretike.
eDVR. What error find you in this argument? WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent: first you cannot prove hence; that the things which S. Paul spake by word, were not the same in effect which he wrote to them: secondly, if he wrote not all to them which he had taught thē, it followeth not that he taught something which is not written in the Scriptures: thirdly; admit many things were left unwritten, yet it followeth not, that all things necessary to salvation be not written: nor do the ancient Fathers say so.DVR. What error find you in this argument? WHIT. pag. 774. I find in it a threefold false consequent: first you cannot proue hence; that the things which S. Paul spake by word, were not the same in effect which hee wrote to thē: secondly, if he wrote not all to thē which he had taught thē, it followeth not that hee taught something which is not written in the Scriptures: thirdly; admit many things were left vnwritten, yet it followeth not, that all things necessary to saluatiō be not written: nor do the ancient Fathers say so.
fDVR. Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire. WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it self showeth that it cannot be meant of any such fire: for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault: but in your Purgatory faults are not consumed, but (you say) punishments are suffered for f•u••s. 2. S. Paul saith every mans work, be it gold or wood, shall be tried; but you cast nothing but wood, hay, and stubble into your feigned Purgatory. 3. S. Paul saith every mans work shall be manifest by this fire; but your Purgatory fire is obscure, and never showeth such light. 4. The word fire, is used by S. Paul Metaphorically, as also are gold, silver, hay, wood &c. but you say your Purgatory fire, is true fire. The fire which S. Paul here meaneth, is the holy Ghost, who proveth all doctrines, and severeth the false from the true. Ambrose on Psal. 118. saith, This fire is the word of Christ: Angustine indeed spake doubtfully of Purgatory, saying, (Enchiridion, cap. 69.) it may be that there is some such thing, but whether yea or no, it is a question; and in his book of the City of God; he saith, perhaps it is true: many others of the Fathers thought this purging should be at Christs coming to judgement; which much differeth from your Purgatory. Chrysostom in his Preface on Isaiah, saith; God at one instant abolisheth sin, freeth from punishment, and giveth righteousness; Tertullian in his book of Baptism, saith: Guilt and punishment are taken away together. Hierome saith, upon the 31. Psalm; the sin which is covered is not seen; that which is not seen is not imputed; that which is not imputed shall not be punished: so that nothing is left for your Purgatory, by these mens judgements.DVR. Sundry Fathers expound this place of Purgatory fire. WHIT. pag. 776. But the place it selfe sheweth that it cannot bee meant of any such fire: for 1. S. Paul speaketh of the purging away that which is a fault: but in your Purga•orie faults are not consumed, but (you say) punishments are s•ffred for f•u••s. 2. S. Paul saith euery mans worke, be it gold or wood, shall be tried; but you cast nothing but wood, hay, and stubble into your fained Purgatory. 3. S. Paul saith euery mans worke shall be manifest by this fire; but your Purgatory fire is obscure, and neuer sheweth such light. 4. The word fire, is vsed by S. Paul Metaphorically, as also are gold, siluer, hay, wood &c. but you say your Purgatory fire, is true fire. The fire which S. Paul heer• meaneth, is the holy Ghost, who proueth all doctrines, and seuereth the false from the true. Ambrose on Psal. 118. saith, This fire is the vvord of Christ: Angustine indeed spake doubtfully of Purgatory, saying, (Enchiridion, cap. 69.) it may be that there is some such thing, but whether yea or no, it is a question; and in his booke of the Citie of God; he saith, perhaps it is true: many others of the Fathers thought this purging should bee at Christs comming to iudgement; vvhich much differeth from your Purgatorie. Chrysostome in his Preface on Esay, saith; God at one instant abolisheth sin, freeth from punishment, and giueth righteousnes; Tertullian in his booke of Baptisme, saith: Guilt and punishment are taken away togither. Hierome saith, vpon the 31. Psalme; the sin which is couered is not seene; that vvhich is not seene is not imputed; that which is not imputed shall not be punished: so that nothing is left for your Purgatorie, by these mens iudgements.
