A18078:875
A reply to an answer made of M. Doctor Whitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.
printed by John Stroud?, 1573
Title page typeset from the transcription.
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
For then by reason of the persecution / those which had the gift of continency / did abstain from marriage after the death of their husbands / for that the sole life was an easier estate and less dangerous and chargeable when they were driven to fly / then the estate of those which were married. Unto all the rest until the end of the first part of the admonition I have answered already. Yet there is a point or two / which I must touch whereof the first is in the. 126. page / where he would bear men in hand / that the authors of the admonition and some other of their mind / would shut out the civil magistrate and the Prince / from all authority in Ecclesiastical matters / which surmise although I see it is not so much because either he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing / as because he meaneth hereby to lay a bait to entrap with all / thinking that where he maketh no conscience to give he careth not what authority to Princes / we will be loth to give more then the word of God will permit / whereby he hopeth to draw us into displeasure with the Prince: yet for because he shall understand / we nourish no opinions secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly / and for that we doubt not of the equity of the prince in this part / which knoweth that although her authority be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite / but is limited by the word of God / and of whom we are persuaded that as her majesty knoweth / so she will not unwillingly hear the truth in this behalf / these things I say being considered / I answer in the name of the authors of the admonition / and those some other which you speak of / that the Prince and civil magistrate hath to see / that the laws of God touching his worship / and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed & duly observed / & to see that every Ecclesiastical person do that office whereunto he is appointed / and to punish those which fail in their office accordingly. As for the making of the orders & ceremonies of the church / they do (where there is a constituted and ordered church) pertain unto the ministers of the church and to the ecclesiastical governors / and that as they meddle not with the making of civil laws and laws for the common wealth: so the civil magistrate hath not to ordain ceremonies pertaining to the church.
For then by reason of the persecution / those which had the gift of continency / dyd abstayne from mariage after the death of their husbandes / for that the sole lyfe was an easyer estate and lesse daungerous and chargeable when they were driuen to flye / then the estate of those which were maryed. Vnto all the rest vntill the ende of the first part of the admonition I haue answered alredy. Yet there is a poynt or two / which I must touch wherof the first is in the. 126. page / where he would beare men in hand / that the authors of the admonition and some other of theyr mynde / would shut out the cyuill magistrate and the Prince / from all authoritie in Ecclesiastical matters / which surmise although I see it is not so much because eyther he knoweth or suspecteth any such thing / as because he meaneth heereby to lay a bayte to entrappe with all / thinking that where he maketh no conscience to geue he careth not what authority to Princes / we will be loth to geue more then the word of God will permit / wherby he hopeth to draw vs into displeasure with the Prince: yet for because he shall vnderstande / we norish no opynions secretly which we are ashamed to declare openly / and for that we doubt not of the equitie of the prince in thys part / which knoweth that although her authoritie be the greatest in the earth yet it is not infinite / but is lymitted by the word of God / and of whome we are perswaded that as her maiesty knoweth / so shee will not vnwillingly heare the truth in thys behalfe / these things I say being considered / I answere in the name of the authors of the admonition / and those some other which you speake of / that the Prince and cyuill magistrate hath to see / that the lawes of God touching hys worshippe / and touching all matters and orders of the church be executed & dewly obserued / & to se that euery Ecclesiasticall person do that office whereunto he is appoynted / and to punish those which fayle in their office accordingly. As for the making of the orders & cerimonyes of the church / they doe (where there is a constituted and ordered church) pertayne vnto the mynisters of the church and to the ecclesiastycall gouernoures / and that as they meddle not with the making of cyuill lawes and lawes for the common wealth: so the cyuill magistrate hath not to ordayne cerimonies pertayning to the churche.
But if those to whom that doth appertain / make any orders not meet / the magistrate may and ought to hinder them / and drive them to better / for so much as the civill magistrate hath this charge to see that nothing be done against the glory of God in his dominion.
But if those to whome that doth appertayne / make any orders not meete / the magistrate may and ought to hynder them / and dryue them to better / for so much as the ciuill magistrate hath thys charge to see that nothing be done agaynst the glory of God in hys domynion.
This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not / nor hath not heard of / let him look in the. 2. book of the Chronicles / he shall see / that there were a number appointed 1for the matters of the Lord / which were priests and levites / and there were other also appointed for the Kings affairs and for matters of the common wealth / amongst which were the Levites / which being more in number then could be applied to the use of the church / were set over civil causes / being therefore most fit / for that they were best learned in the laws of God / which were the politic laws of that country. There he may learn if it please him / that the making of orders and giving of judgements in civil and Ecclesiastical / in common wealth and church matters / pertained unto divers persons / which distinction the writer to the Hebrews doth note / when he sayeth that the 2Priest was ordained in things pertaining to God.
Thys distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not / nor hath not heard of / let him looke in the. 2. booke of the Chronicles / he shall see / that there were a number appoynted 1for the matters of the Lord / which were priestes and leuites / and there were other also appoynted for the Kinges affaires and for matters of the common wealth / amongst which were the Leuites / which being more in number then coulde be applyed to the vse of the churche / were set ouer cyuill causes / being therefore most fit / for that they were best learned in the lawes of God / which were the politicke lawes of that countrey. There he may learne if it please hym / that the making of orders and geuing of iudgementes in cyuill and Ecclesiasticall / in common wealth and church matters / pertayned vnto dyuers persons / which distinction the wryter to the Hebrewes doth note / when he sayeth that the 2Priest was ordayned in things pertayning to God.
This might Master Doctor have learned by that which the noble emperor 1* Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene council and to the Ecclesiastical persons there gathered: which he doth also permit the Bishops / ⟨p. 193⟩Elders / and Deacons of churches to do / either by correcting or adding / or making new if need be. And by the continual practise of the church in the time of christian Emperors / which always permitted unto the ministers assembled in 2councils / as well the determination of controversies which rose / as the making or the abolishing of needful or hurtful ceremonies / as the case required. Also by the Emperors epistle in the first action of the council of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth / that it was the manner of 3the Emperors to confirm the ordinances which were made by the ministers / and to see them kept. The practise of this he might have also most plainly seen in Ambrose / who would by no means suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court / but would have them handled in the church / by those that had the government of the church: and therefore excuseth him self to the emperor Valentinian / for that (being convented to answer of the church matters / unto the civill court) he came not. And by whom can the matters and orders of the church be better ordained / then by the ministers of the church? And if that be a good reason of Master Doctor in the forty and seventh page / that the Bishops ought therefore to ordain ministers / because they are best able to judge of the learning and ability / of those which are the fittest / it is also as good reason / that therefore the ministers and governors of the church should appoint and decree of such ceremonies and orders as pertain to the church / for because it is to be supposed that they can best judge of those matters / bestowing their studies that ways / and further best understanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholly occupied. And this is not (Master Doctor) to shake hands with the papists. For the papists would exempt their priests from the subjection / and from the punishment of the civil magistrate / which we do not.
And the papists would that whatsoever the clergy doth determine / that that forthwith should be holden for good / and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to maintain and set forth that / be it good or evil / without further inquiry: but we say that if there be no lawful ministry to set good orders (as in ruinous decays and overthrows of religion) that then the Prince ought to do it: and if (when there is a lawful ministry) it shall agree of any unlawful or unmeet order / that the Prince ought to stay that order / and not to suffer it / but to drive them to that which is lawful and meet. And if this be to shake hands with the papists / then Master Doctor is to blame / which hath taught us once or twice before / that the appointing of ceremonies of the church / belongeth unto the church. And yet I know that there is one or two of the later writers / that think otherwise / but as I take no advantage of their authority which think as I do / so I ought not to be prejudiced by those / that think otherwise. But for so much as we have M. Doctor yet of this judgement / that the church ceremonies should be ordained by the church / I will travail no further in this matter / considering that the practise of this church commonly is to refer these matters unto the ecclesiastical persons: only this is the difference / that where it is done now of one or a few / we desire that it may be done by others also / who have interest in that behalf.
And the papistes would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determyne / that that forthwith should be holden for good / and the Prince should be forthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that / bee it good or euill / without further inquiry: but wee say that if there bee no lawfull mynistery to set good orders (as in rumous decayes and ouerthrowes of relygion) that then the Prince ought to doe it: and if (when there is a lawfull mynistery) it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order / that the Prince ought to stay that order / and not to suffer it / but to driue them to that which is lawfull and meete. And if thys be to shake handes with the papistes / then Maister Doctor is to blame / which hath taught vs once or twise before / that the appoynting of ceremonies of the church / belongeth vnto the church. And yet I know that there is one or two of the later wryters / that thinke otherwise / but as I take no aduauntage of their authoritie which thinke as I doe / so I ought not to be preiudiced by those / that thinke otherwise. But for so much as we haue M. Doctor yet of thys iudgement / that the church ceremonies shoulde bee ordayned by the church / I will trauaile no further in thys matter / consydering that the practise of thys church commonly is to referre these matters vnto the ecclesiasticall persons: only thys is the difference / that where it is done now of one or a few / wee desire that it may be done by others also / who haue interest in that behalfe.
The other point is in the hundred thirty and eight page / where he most untruly and slanderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition / and maketh wonderful outcries of them / as though they should deny that there had been any reformation at all / sithens the time that the Queens majesty began to reign / manifestly contrary / not only to their meaning / but also to their very words / which appeareth in that they move to a thorough reformation / & to contend / or to labour to perfection / denying only that the reformation which hath been made in her majesties days / is thorough and perfect. We confess willingly / that next unto the Lord God / every one of us is most deeply bound unto ⟨p. 194⟩her majesty / whom he hath used as an excellent instrument to deliver his church here / out of the spiritual Egypt of popery / and the common wealth also / and the whole land out of the slavery and subjection of strangers / whereunto it was so near: This I say we willingly confess before men / and do in our prayers daily give most humble thanks to God therefore.
The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page / where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition / and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them / as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all / sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne / manyfestly contrary / not onely to theyr meaning / but also to theyr very words / which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation / & to contende / or to labour to perfection / denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes / is thorough and perfect. We confesse willingly / that next vnto the Lorde God / euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto ⟨p. 194⟩her maiesty / whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere / out of the spirituall Egipt of popery / and the common wealth also / and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers / whereunto it was so neare: Thys I say we willingly confesse before men / and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore.
And by this humble suit and earnest desire which we have for further reformation / we are so far from unthankfulness unto her majesty / that we thereby desire the heap of her felicity / & the establishment of her royal throne amongst us / which then shall be most sure and unremoved / when our saviour Christ sitteth wholly and fully / not only in his chair to teach / but also in his throne to rule / not alone in the hearts of every one by his spirit / but also generally / and in the visible government of his church by those laws of discipline / which he hath prescribed.
And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation / we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty / that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie / & the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs / which then shall be most sure and vnremoued / when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully / not only in hys chayre to teach / but also in hys throne to rule / not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite / but also generally / and in the visible gouernment of hys church by those lawes of discipline / whiche hee hath prescribed.
And whereas M. Doctor would bring us into a foolish paradise of our selves / as though we need not to learn any thing at the churches of France & Scotland / he should have understanded / that as we have been unto them in example / & have provoked them to follow us / so the Lord will have us also profit / and be provoked by their example / and so be mutual helps one to an other / and stir up our selves with the admonition that our saviour Christ stirred up his apostles / that oftentimes those that are first / are not forwardest / but are overrun 1of others that come after. And whereas he would privily pinch at the reformation there / for so much as the Lord hath humbled the one / and exerciseth the other by civil wars and troubles / he should have in stead of rocking us a sleep in our security / put us in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang over us / and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance / and that if he have punished that people of his which have suffered so much for the profession of the Gospel / and which went with so straight a foot in it / with an universal hazard of their goods and lives / that we shall not escape unless we repent speedily of our coldness and halting in religion / and unwillingness / I will not say to hazard to put our lives in danger / but not to leese some of our wealth and honour / for the obtaining of a through reformation of the church / and advancement of the glory of the Lord.
And whereas M. Doctor woulde bring vs into a foolish paradise of oure selues / as though we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce & Scotland / he should haue vnderstanded / that as we haue bene vnto them in example / & haue prouoked them to follow vs / so the Lord will haue vs also profite / and be prouoked by their example / and so be mutuall helpes one to an other / and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christ stirred vp hys apostles / that oftentimes those that are first / are not forwardest / but are ouerrun 1of others that come after. And whereas he would priuely pinch at the reformation there / for so much as the Lord hath humbled the one / and exerciseth the other by cyuill warres and troubles / he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleepe in our securitie / put vs in remembraunce of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs / and of Gods great pacience that still taryeth for our repentaunce / and that if hee haue punyshed that people of hys which haue suffered so much for the profession of the Gospell / and which went with so strayght a foote in it / with an vniuersall hazarde of their goodes and lyues / that wee shall not escape vnlesse wee repent spedely of our coldnes and halting in relygion / and vnwillingnes / I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger / but not to leese some of our wealth and honor / for the obtayning of a through reformation of the churche / and aduauncement of the glory of the Lord.
Finally / he would rather have put us in remembrance of the sermon which our saviour Christ maketh / where he showeth that those cities are not always 1the greatest sinners / or those whom God is most angry with / which have the heaviest judgements executed upon them / but that thereby the Lord calleth us to repentance / otherwise that we shall likewise perish. This had been more fit forourestate to have been said / then to have after a sort insulted upon the afflicted / & daubed up our eyes that we should not see our misery and our nakedness. In all the rest / M. Doctor hath nothing but words of reproach against the authors of the Admonition / and calling still as his manner is / for more punishment for them / which I will not bestow the answer of.
Finally / he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ maketh / where he sheweth that those cyties are not alwares 1the greatest sinners / or those whome God is most angry with / which haue the heauiest iudgementes executed vpon them / but that thereby the Lord calleth vs to repentance / otherwyse that we shall lykewise pearish. Thys had bene more fit forourestate to haue bene sayd / then to haue after a sort insulted vpon the afflicted / & daubed vp our eyes that we should not see our mysery and our nakednes. In all the rest / M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproch agaynst the authors of the Admonition / and calling still as hys manner is / for more punishment for them / which I will not bestow the answere of.
Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti, Deus bone, quam te illud non decet.
Here M. Doctor was disposed to make him self and his reader merry / but it is with the bagpipe or country mirth / not with the Harp or Lute / which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed up together the old tale of the curst wife / and of the thief that toke away the priests purse / very familiar & homely gear: It might peradventure make M. Doctor hop about the house / but the learned & the wise can not dance by this instrument. It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their livings without just cause / to heretics / curst wives / and to thieves / but all men do understand how rightly. ⟨p. 195⟩What his troubles be within / and in his conscience / the Lord God and he knoweth best / but as for the outward persecution which he suffereth / it is not such / as he need thus to stoop or to groan / and to blow underneath it / as though he had some great burden upon his shoulders. And if he complain of the persecution of the tong / to let pass his immoderate heat of speech / which he useth with those that he hath to do with all / the tong which is more intemperate then his is in all his book / shall hardly be found. And although it be unreasonable enough / that he should not give men leave to complain of their troubles / when he glorieth in troubling them / yet that of all is most untollerable / that besides the injury which he doth them / he is angry ye they will not lay hands of them selves by casting them selves out of their livings / or ever they be cast out by him. Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria / which when he had caused Q. Scelova a singular in ā to be wounded / & saw that he dyed not of it / convented him before the judges / & being asked what he had to accuse him of / answered / for that he did not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was stricken / to enter into his body: even so M. Doctor contenteth not him self only to do injuries unto men / but accuseth them also / that they will not do it unto them selves / or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so far as he would have them. What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from his living / in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there used?
Heere M. Doctor was disposed to make hym selfe and hys reader mery / but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth / not with the Harpe or Lute / which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed vp together the olde tale of the curst wyfe / and of the theefe that toke away the priestes purse / very familiar & homely geare: It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hop about the house / but the learned & the wyse can not daunce by thys instrument. It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their lyuings without iust cause / to heretickes / curst wiues / and to theeues / but all men do vnderstand how rightly.
is it not enough to abstain from them / if there be any evil in them / or to declare the unlawfulness of them / if his calling do suffer him / when as the reformation is not in his power. And if either of this abstaining or declaration of this unlawfulness of them / troubles be moved / there is no more cause why they should give place / then the other which like of those disorders / yea there is less cause / for that they are not the causes of trouble / but the other / and for that by their departure out of their places / room is made for those which will like of those disorders which the other misliked / which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in such places. And as for M. Doctors easiness to depart from his living / rather then he would cause any trouble / he giveth men great cause to doubt of / which having divers great livings / and amongst them a benefice is very loth to go from troubling of others / to do his duty at any of them. It is true / that the church of England may have an order whereunto it may justly require the subscription of the ministers in England: And so is it likewise untrue / that we desire that every one should have his own fancy / and live as him listeth / for we also desire an uniform order / but such and in such sort / as we have before declared. As for the old accusation of Anabaptism and confusion / it is answered before: therefore according to my promise / I will leave your words / and if you have any matter / I will speak to that.
is it not enough to abstayne from thē / if there be any euill in them / or to declare the vnlawfulnes of them / if hys calling do suffer hym / when as the reformation is not in hys power. And if eyther of this abstayning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnes of them / troubles be moued / there is no more cause why they should geue place / then the other which lyke of those disorders / yea there is lesse cause / for that they are not the causes of trouble / but the other / and for that by their departure out of theyr places / roume is made for those whiche will lyke of those disorders which the other mislyked / which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in such places. And as for M. Doctors easynes to depart from hys lyuing / rather then he would cause any trouble / hee geueth men great cause to doubt of / which hauing dyuers great lyuinges / and amongst them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others / to doe hys duety at any of them. It is true / that the church of England may haue an order whereunto it may iustly require the subscription of the mynisters in Englande: And so is it likewyse vntrue / that we desire that euery one should haue hys own fansy / and lyue as hym listeth / for we also desire an vniforme order / but such and in such sort / as we haue before declared. As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion / it is answeared before: therefore according to my promise / I will leaue your wordes / and if you haue any matter / I will speake to that.
The Admonition hath no such thing / as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with / that they did ever allow of the book of service. It sayeth they bare with it / and used it so far / as they might / and therefore now when it came to the approving of it by subscription / they refused / & there is no man which can not understand / that it is one thing to bear with a thing / and an other to approve it / and therefore to bear / and to use it so far as might be / may well agree with their refusal of subscription / so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting. The Apostles did bear with the infirmity of the Jews addicted to the observation of the ceremonial law / yet they never allowed that infirmity / and they were so far from approving it by subscribing / that they wrote against it. Those (saith M. D. which authorized this book / were studious of peace / and of building of Christs church / therefore they that speak against it (which he ⟨p. 196⟩calleth defacing) are disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. So I will reason: Gideon was studious of peace / and of building of the church / therefore they which spake against the Ephod which he made / were disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. We speak against images in churches / and consubstantiation in the sacraments / and such like / which Luther being studious of peace / and of the building of the church did hold / and yet we are not therefore disturbers of peace / or destroyers of the church. Although they were excellent personages / yet their knowledge was in part / & although they brought many things to our light / yet they being sent out in the morning / or ever the sun of the gospel was risen so high / might oversee many things which those that are not so sharp of fight / as they were / may see / for because that which they want in the sharpness of sight / they have by the benefit and clearness of the sun and of the light. They sealed not the book of service with their blood (as M. Doctor sayeth) for some that suffered for the truth / declared openly their misliking of certain things in it / and as for the other they could never dye for that book / more then for the liturgy used in the French church / or at Geneva.
THe Admonition hath no such thing / as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with / that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice. It sayeth they bare with it / and vsed it so farre / as they might / and therefore now when it came to the approuing of it by subscription / they refused / & there is no man which can not vnderstand / that it is one thing to beare with a thing / and an other to approue it / and therefore to beare / and to vse it so farre as might be / may well agree with their refusall of subscription / so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting. The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law / yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie / and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing / that they wrote agaynst it. Those (sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke / were studious of peace / and of building of Christes church / therefore they that speake agaynst it (which hee
For they received not the sentence of condemnation / because they approved that book / but because they improved the articles drawn out of the mass book. And if they had dyed for that book (as in deed they dyed for the book of God) yet the authority of their martyrdom / could not take away from us this liberty that we have to enquire of the cause of their death. Justin and Cyprian were godly martyrs / & yet a man may not say / that they sealed their errors which they wrote with their blood / or with this glory of their martyrdom / prejudice those which speak or write against their errors: for this is to oppose the blood of men / to the blood of the son of God. For the papists triumph I have answered before / and I will not strive about the Goats wool / who is the opponent / & who the respondent in this difference.
For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation / because they approued that booke / but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke. And if they had dyed for that booke (as in deede they dyed for the booke of God) yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome / coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death. Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs / & yet a man may not say / that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud / or with thys glory of their martyrdome / preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures: for thys is to oppose the bloud of men / to the bloud of the sonne of God. For the papistes triumph I haue answeared before / and I will not striue about the Goates wolle / who is the opponent / & who the respondent in thys difference.
Thys might Maister Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble emperor 1* Constantine attributeth to the fathers of the Nicene councell and to the Ecclesiasticall persons there gathered: which he doth also permit the Byshops / ⟨p. 193⟩Elders / and Deacans of churches to doe / eyther by correcting or adding / or making new if neede be. And by the contynuall practise of the church in the tyme of christian Emperors / which alwayes permitted vnto the mynisters assembled in 2councelles / as well the determynation of controuersies which rose / as the making or the abolyshing of needefull or hurtfull cerimonies / as the case required. Also by the Emperoures epistle in the first action of the councell of Constantinople where by the epistle of the Emperor it appeareth / that it was the manner of 3the Emperoures to confirme the ordinaunces which were made by the mynisters / and to see them kept. The practise of thys he myght haue also most playnly seene in Ambrose / who wold by no meanes suffer that the causes of the churches should be debated in the Princes consistory or court / but would haue them handled in the church / by those that had the gouernment of the church: and therefore excuseth hym selfe to the emperour Valentinian / for that (being conuented to answere of the church matters / vnto the ciuill court) he came not. And by whome can the matters and orders of the church bee better ordayned / then by the mynisters of the church? And if that be a good reason of Maister Doctor in the fortie and seuenth page / that the Byshoppes ought therefore to ordayne mynisters / because they are best hable to iudge of the learning and habylitie / of those which are the fyttest / it is also as good reason / that therefore the mynisters and gouernours of the church should appoynt and decree of such ceremonyes and orders as pertayne to the church / for because it is to be supposed that they can best iudge of those matters / bestowing theyr studyes that wayes / and further best vnderstanding the estate of the church about the which they are wholy occupyed. And this is not (Maister Doctor) to shake handes with the papistes. For the papistes would exempt their priestes from the subiection / and from the punyshment of the cyuill magistrate / which we doe not.
