A18078:880
A reply to an answer made of M. Doctor Whitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.A replye to an ansvvere made of M. Doctor VVhitgifte Against the admonition to the Parliament. By T.C.
printed by John Stroud?, 1573
Title page typeset from the transcription.
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
The other point is in the hundred thirty and eight page / where he most untruly and slanderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition / and maketh wonderful outcries of them / as though they should deny that there had been any reformation at all / sithens the time that the Queens majesty began to reign / manifestly contrary / not only to their meaning / but also to their very words / which appeareth in that they move to a thorough reformation / & to contend / or to labour to perfection / denying only that the reformation which hath been made in her majesties days / is thorough and perfect. We confess willingly / that next unto the Lord God / every one of us is most deeply bound unto ⟨p. 194⟩her majesty / whom he hath used as an excellent instrument to deliver his church here / out of the spiritual Egypt of popery / and the common wealth also / and the whole land out of the slavery and subjection of strangers / whereunto it was so near: This I say we willingly confess before men / and do in our prayers daily give most humble thanks to God therefore.
The other poynt is in the hundreth thirty and eyght page / where hee most vntruely and slaunderously chargeth the authors of the Admonition / and maketh wonderfull outcryes of them / as though they should deny that there hadde beene any reformation at all / sythens the tyme that the Queenes maiestye began to raigne / manyfestly contrary / not onely to theyr meaning / but also to theyr very words / which appeareth in that they moue to a thorough reformation / & to contende / or to labour to perfection / denying only that the reformation which hath bene made in her maiesties dayes / is thorough and perfect. We confesse willingly / that next vnto the Lorde God / euery one of vs is most deepely bounde vnto ⟨p. 194⟩her maiesty / whome he hath vsed as an excellent instrument to delyuer his church heere / out of the spirituall Egipt of popery / and the common wealth also / and the whole lande out of the slauery and subiection of straungers / whereunto it was so neare: Thys I say we willingly confesse before men / and do in our prayers dayly geue most humble thankes to God therefore.
And by this humble suit and earnest desire which we have for further reformation / we are so far from unthankfulness unto her majesty / that we thereby desire the heap of her felicity / & the establishment of her royal throne amongst us / which then shall be most sure and unremoved / when our saviour Christ sitteth wholly and fully / not only in his chair to teach / but also in his throne to rule / not alone in the hearts of every one by his spirit / but also generally / and in the visible government of his church by those laws of discipline / which he hath prescribed.
And by thys humble sute and earnest desire whiche wee haue for further reformation / we are so far from vnthankfulnes vnto her maiesty / that we thereby desire the heape of her felicitie / & the establishment of her royal throne amongst vs / which then shall be most sure and vnremoued / when our sauiour Christ sytteth wholy and fully / not only in hys chayre to teach / but also in hys throne to rule / not alone in the heartes of euery one by hys spirite / but also generally / and in the visible gouernment of hys church by those lawes of discipline / whiche hee hath prescribed.
And whereas M. Doctor would bring us into a foolish paradise of our selves / as though we need not to learn any thing at the churches of France & Scotland / he should have understanded / that as we have been unto them in example / & have provoked them to follow us / so the Lord will have us also profit / and be provoked by their example / and so be mutual helps one to an other / and stir up our selves with the admonition that our saviour Christ stirred up his apostles / that oftentimes those that are first / are not forwardest / but are overrun 1of others that come after. And whereas he would privily pinch at the reformation there / for so much as the Lord hath humbled the one / and exerciseth the other by civil wars and troubles / he should have in stead of rocking us a sleep in our security / put us in remembrance of Gods scourges which hang over us / and of Gods great patience that still tarrieth for our repentance / and that if he have punished that people of his which have suffered so much for the profession of the Gospel / and which went with so straight a foot in it / with an universal hazard of their goods and lives / that we shall not escape unless we repent speedily of our coldness and halting in religion / and unwillingness / I will not say to hazard to put our lives in danger / but not to leese some of our wealth and honour / for the obtaining of a through reformation of the church / and advancement of the glory of the Lord.
And whereas M. Doctor woulde bring vs into a foolish paradise of oure selues / as though we neede not to learne any thing at the churches of Fraunce & Scotland / he should haue vnderstanded / that as we haue bene vnto them in example / & haue prouoked them to follow vs / so the Lord will haue vs also profite / and be prouoked by their example / and so be mutuall helpes one to an other / and stirre vp our selues with the admonition that our sauiour Christ stirred vp hys apostles / that oftentimes those that are first / are not forwardest / but are ouerrun 1of others that come after. And whereas he would priuely pinch at the reformation there / for so much as the Lord hath humbled the one / and exerciseth the other by cyuill warres and troubles / he should haue in steade of rocking vs a sleepe in our securitie / put vs in remembraunce of Gods scourges which hang ouer vs / and of Gods great pacience that still taryeth for our repentaunce / and that if hee haue punyshed that people of hys which haue suffered so much for the profession of the Gospell / and which went with so strayght a foote in it / with an vniuersall hazarde of their goodes and lyues / that wee shall not escape vnlesse wee repent spedely of our coldnes and halting in relygion / and vnwillingnes / I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger / but not to leese some of our wealth and honor / for the obtayning of a through reformation of the churche / and aduauncement of the glory of the Lord.
Finally / he would rather have put us in remembrance of the sermon which our saviour Christ maketh / where he showeth that those cities are not always 1the greatest sinners / or those whom God is most angry with / which have the heaviest judgements executed upon them / but that thereby the Lord calleth us to repentance / otherwise that we shall likewise perish. This had been more fit forourestate to have been said / then to have after a sort insulted upon the afflicted / & daubed up our eyes that we should not see our misery and our nakedness. In all the rest / M. Doctor hath nothing but words of reproach against the authors of the Admonition / and calling still as his manner is / for more punishment for them / which I will not bestow the answer of.
Finally / he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ maketh / where he sheweth that those cyties are not alwares 1the greatest sinners / or those whome God is most angry with / which haue the heauiest iudgementes executed vpon them / but that thereby the Lord calleth vs to repentance / otherwyse that we shall lykewise pearish. Thys had bene more fit forourestate to haue bene sayd / then to haue after a sort insulted vpon the afflicted / & daubed vp our eyes that we should not see our mysery and our nakednes. In all the rest / M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproch agaynst the authors of the Admonition / and calling still as hys manner is / for more punishment for them / which I will not bestow the answere of.
Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti, Deus bone, quam te illud non decet.
Here M. Doctor was disposed to make him self and his reader merry / but it is with the bagpipe or country mirth / not with the Harp or Lute / which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed up together the old tale of the curst wife / and of the thief that toke away the priests purse / very familiar & homely gear: It might peradventure make M. Doctor hop about the house / but the learned & the wise can not dance by this instrument. It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their livings without just cause / to heretics / curst wives / and to thieves / but all men do understand how rightly. ⟨p. 195⟩What his troubles be within / and in his conscience / the Lord God and he knoweth best / but as for the outward persecution which he suffereth / it is not such / as he need thus to stoop or to groan / and to blow underneath it / as though he had some great burden upon his shoulders. And if he complain of the persecution of the tong / to let pass his immoderate heat of speech / which he useth with those that he hath to do with all / the tong which is more intemperate then his is in all his book / shall hardly be found. And although it be unreasonable enough / that he should not give men leave to complain of their troubles / when he glorieth in troubling them / yet that of all is most untollerable / that besides the injury which he doth them / he is angry ye they will not lay hands of them selves by casting them selves out of their livings / or ever they be cast out by him. Tully maketh mention of one C. Fimbria / which when he had caused Q. Scelova a singular in ā to be wounded / & saw that he dyed not of it / convented him before the judges / & being asked what he had to accuse him of / answered / for that he did not suffer the whole weapon wherewith he was stricken / to enter into his body: even so M. Doctor contenteth not him self only to do injuries unto men / but accuseth them also / that they will not do it unto them selves / or that they would not willingly suffer his weapons enter so far as he would have them. What conscience is there that bindeth a man to depart from his living / in that place where he liketh not of all the orders which are there used?
Heere M. Doctor was disposed to make hym selfe and hys reader mery / but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth / not with the Harpe or Lute / which the learned were wont to handle. For he hath packed vp together the olde tale of the curst wyfe / and of the theefe that toke away the priestes purse / very familiar & homely geare: It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hop about the house / but the learned & the wyse can not daunce by thys instrument. It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their lyuings without iust cause / to heretickes / curst wiues / and to theeues / but all men do vnderstand how rightly.
is it not enough to abstain from them / if there be any evil in them / or to declare the unlawfulness of them / if his calling do suffer him / when as the reformation is not in his power. And if either of this abstaining or declaration of this unlawfulness of them / troubles be moved / there is no more cause why they should give place / then the other which like of those disorders / yea there is less cause / for that they are not the causes of trouble / but the other / and for that by their departure out of their places / room is made for those which will like of those disorders which the other misliked / which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in such places. And as for M. Doctors easiness to depart from his living / rather then he would cause any trouble / he giveth men great cause to doubt of / which having divers great livings / and amongst them a benefice is very loth to go from troubling of others / to do his duty at any of them. It is true / that the church of England may have an order whereunto it may justly require the subscription of the ministers in England: And so is it likewise untrue / that we desire that every one should have his own fancy / and live as him listeth / for we also desire an uniform order / but such and in such sort / as we have before declared. As for the old accusation of Anabaptism and confusion / it is answered before: therefore according to my promise / I will leave your words / and if you have any matter / I will speak to that.
is it not enough to abstayne from thē / if there be any euill in them / or to declare the vnlawfulnes of them / if hys calling do suffer hym / when as the reformation is not in hys power. And if eyther of this abstayning or declaration of thys vnlawfulnes of them / troubles be moued / there is no more cause why they should geue place / then the other which lyke of those disorders / yea there is lesse cause / for that they are not the causes of trouble / but the other / and for that by their departure out of theyr places / roume is made for those whiche will lyke of those disorders which the other mislyked / which is to the hurt of that company or congregation in such places. And as for M. Doctors easynes to depart from hys lyuing / rather then he would cause any trouble / hee geueth men great cause to doubt of / which hauing dyuers great lyuinges / and amongst them a benefice is very loth to goe from troubling of others / to doe hys duety at any of them. It is true / that the church of England may haue an order whereunto it may iustly require the subscription of the mynisters in Englande: And so is it likewyse vntrue / that we desire that euery one should haue hys own fansy / and lyue as hym listeth / for we also desire an vniforme order / but such and in such sort / as we haue before declared. As for the olde accusation of Anabaptisme and confusion / it is answeared before: therefore according to my promise / I will leaue your wordes / and if you haue any matter / I will speake to that.
The Admonition hath no such thing / as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with / that they did ever allow of the book of service. It sayeth they bare with it / and used it so far / as they might / and therefore now when it came to the approving of it by subscription / they refused / & there is no man which can not understand / that it is one thing to bear with a thing / and an other to approve it / and therefore to bear / and to use it so far as might be / may well agree with their refusal of subscription / so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting. The Apostles did bear with the infirmity of the Jews addicted to the observation of the ceremonial law / yet they never allowed that infirmity / and they were so far from approving it by subscribing / that they wrote against it. Those (saith M. D. which authorized this book / were studious of peace / and of building of Christs church / therefore they that speak against it (which he ⟨p. 196⟩calleth defacing) are disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. So I will reason: Gideon was studious of peace / and of building of the church / therefore they which spake against the Ephod which he made / were disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. We speak against images in churches / and consubstantiation in the sacraments / and such like / which Luther being studious of peace / and of the building of the church did hold / and yet we are not therefore disturbers of peace / or destroyers of the church. Although they were excellent personages / yet their knowledge was in part / & although they brought many things to our light / yet they being sent out in the morning / or ever the sun of the gospel was risen so high / might oversee many things which those that are not so sharp of fight / as they were / may see / for because that which they want in the sharpness of sight / they have by the benefit and clearness of the sun and of the light. They sealed not the book of service with their blood (as M. Doctor sayeth) for some that suffered for the truth / declared openly their misliking of certain things in it / and as for the other they could never dye for that book / more then for the liturgy used in the French church / or at Geneva.
THe Admonition hath no such thing / as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with / that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice. It sayeth they bare with it / and vsed it so farre / as they might / and therefore now when it came to the approuing of it by subscription / they refused / & there is no man which can not vnderstand / that it is one thing to beare with a thing / and an other to approue it / and therefore to beare / and to vse it so farre as might be / may well agree with their refusall of subscription / so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting. The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law / yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie / and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing / that they wrote agaynst it. Those (sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke / were studious of peace / and of building of Christes church / therefore they that speake agaynst it (which hee
For they received not the sentence of condemnation / because they approved that book / but because they improved the articles drawn out of the mass book. And if they had dyed for that book (as in deed they dyed for the book of God) yet the authority of their martyrdom / could not take away from us this liberty that we have to enquire of the cause of their death. Justin and Cyprian were godly martyrs / & yet a man may not say / that they sealed their errors which they wrote with their blood / or with this glory of their martyrdom / prejudice those which speak or write against their errors: for this is to oppose the blood of men / to the blood of the son of God. For the papists triumph I have answered before / and I will not strive about the Goats wool / who is the opponent / & who the respondent in this difference.
For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation / because they approued that booke / but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke. And if they had dyed for that booke (as in deede they dyed for the booke of God) yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome / coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death. Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs / & yet a man may not say / that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud / or with thys glory of their martyrdome / preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures: for thys is to oppose the bloud of men / to the bloud of the sonne of God. For the papistes triumph I haue answeared before / and I will not striue about the Goates wolle / who is the opponent / & who the respondent in thys difference.
I answer / ye although it be meet / that as we hope that the homilies which are made already be godly / so those that shall be made hereafter / shall be likewise: yet considering the mutability of men / and that oftentimes to the worse / it is not meet / nay it is merely unlawful / to subscribe to a blank / seeing that we can not witness or allow of those things which we have not seen nor heard. The place unto the Corinthians / is the same unto the Romans / and M. Doctor approving one / hath no cause to find fault with the other. For the homilies first of all I have showed / how absurd a saying / and how unlike a divine it is / to match reading of homilies / with preaching of sermons. For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitful as the preaching of them / much less is the reading of homilies to be for their fruit matched with preaching of sermons. There remaineth that I show briefly / that neither the homilies nor the Apocrypha / are at all to be red in the church. Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lord kept with his people in times past / when he commanded 1that no vessel / nor no instrument either besom / or flesh hook / or pan. &c. should come into the temple / but those only which were sanctified / & set apart for that use. And in the book of Numbers / he will have no other trumpets blown 2to call the people together / but those only which were set apart for y• purpose. What should the meaning of this law be? The matter of other common vessels & trumpets / was the same oftentimes which theirs was / the same form / also & the other besoms and hooks / and trumpets able to serve for the uses of sweeping and ⟨p. 197⟩sounding. &c. as well as those of the temple / and as those which were set apart / wherefore mought not these then as well be used in the temple as others? Forsooth / because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogy teach / that he would have nothing brought into the church / but that which he had appointed / no not although they seemed in the judgement of men / as good as those things which God him self had placed there.
I answere / ye although it be meete / that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly / so those that shall be made hereafter / shall be lykewise: yet considering the mutabilitie of men / and that oftentymes to the worse / it is not meete / nay it is merely vnlawfull / to subscribe to a blancke / seeing that wee can not witnesse or allow of those things which we haue not sene nor heard. The place vnto the Corinthes / is the same vnto the Romanes / and M. Doctor approuing one / hath no cause to fynde fault with the other. For the homylies first of all I haue shewed / how absurde a saying / and how vnlyke a dyuine it is / to match reading of homylies / with preaching of sermons. For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them / muche lesse is the reading of homylies to be for their frute matched with preaching of sermons. There remayneth that I shew briefely / that neyther the homylies nor the Apochripha / are at all to be red in the churche. Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with hys people in tymes past / when he commaunded
Which thing is much more to be observed in this matter / seeing that the homilies red (be they never so learned and pithy) neither the Apocrypha / are to be compared either in goodness within themselves / either in fruit or in effect towards the hearer / with the authentical scriptures of God. Now / if a man will say that the Homilies do explain & lay open the scriptures / 1I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be understanded / and such as giveth understanding to idiots & to the simple. And if there be hardness in them / yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirit / that God hath given to the reading of the scriptures in the church / which he hath not given to homilies / or to the Apocrypha / will be able to weigh with the hardness / and to overcome it / so that there shall easily appear greater profit to come unto the church by reading of the scriptures / then by reading of homilies.
Which thing is much more to be obserued in this matter / seeing that the homilies red (be they neuer so learned and pithye) neyther the Apochrypha / are to be compared either in goodnes within thēselues / eyther in frute or in effect towardes the hearer / wyth the authenticall scriptures of God. Now / if a man will say that the Homilies do explane & lay open the scriptures / 1I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be vnderstanded / and such as giueth vnderstanding to idiotes & to the simple. And if there be hardnes in them / yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirite / that God hath giuen to the reading of the scriptures in the church / whych he hath not giuen to homilies / or to the Apochrypha / will be able to weigh wyth the hardnes / and to ouercome it / so that there shall easely appeare greater profit to come vnto ye church by reading of the scriptures / then by reading of homilies.
Besides this / the policy of the church of God in times past is to be followed herein / that for the expounding of darker places / places of more easiness ought to be joined together / as in the persecution of Antiochus / where they could not have the commodity of preaching / the Jews did appoint at their meetings always a piece of the law to be red / & with all a piece of the prophets which expounded y• piece of the law / rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red. And because I am entered into that matter / here cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our saviour Christs coming / and after / that when 1the churches met together / there is nothing mentioned but the reading of the scriptures / for so is the Liturgy described in the Acts. And it is not to be thought / but that they had those which made expositions of the law and the prophets. And besides that / they had Onkelos the Chaldee paraphrast / both Galatine / & Rabbi Moses (surnamed Maymon) write / that Jonathan an nother of the Chaldee paraphrasts flourished in our saviour Christs time / whose writings and paraphrases upon the scriptures / are esteemed comparable in that kind of paraphrastical writing / with any which hath laboured that ways. And if any mens writings were to be red in the church / those paraphrases which in explaining the scripture / go least from it / and which keep not only the number of sentences / but almost the very number of words / were of all most fit to be red in the church. Seeing therefore (I say) the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church / and contented it self with the scriptures / it can not be but a most dangerous attempt / to bring any thing into the church to be red besides the word of God. This practise continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times / as may appear by the second Apology of Justin Martyr / which showeth that their manner was to read in the church the monuments of the prophets and of the apostles / and if they had red any thing else / it is to be supposed that he would have set it down / considering that his purpose there / is to show the whole order which was used in their churches then. The same may appear in the first Homily of Origen upon Exodus / and upon the Judges. And as for M.
Besides thys / the pollicy of the church of God in times past is to be folowed herein / that for the expounding of darker places / places of more easines ought to be ioyned together / as in ye persecutiō of Antiochus / wher they could not haue the commodity of preaching / the Iewes dyd appoynt at their meetings alwayes a peece of the law to be red / & with all a peece of the prophets whych expounded y peece of the lawe / rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red. And because I am entred into that matter / heere cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our sauior Christes comming / and after / that when
Bucers authority / I have showed before how it ought to be weighed / & here also it is suspicious: for that it is said that his advise was / when the lord should bless the realm with moe learned preachers / that then order should be taken to make more homilies / which should be red in the church unto the people: As if M. Bucer did not know / that there were then learned preachers enough in the realm / which were able to make homilies / so many as the volume of them might easily have exceeded the volume of the Bible / if the multitude ⟨p. 198⟩of homilies would have done so much good. And if the authority of M. Bucer bear so great a sway with M. Doctor / that upon his credit only without either scripture or reason / or examples of the Churches primitive / or those which are now / he dare thrust into the church homilies / then the authorities of the most ancient & best councils ought to have ben considered / which have given charge / that nothing should be red in the church / but only the canonical scriptures. For it was decreed in the council of Laodicea / ye nothing should be red in the church / 1but the canonical books of the old and new testament / and reckoneth up what they be. Afterward as corruptions grew in the church / it was permitted that homilies might be red by the deacon / when the minister was sick / and could not preach / and it was also in an other council of Carthage permitted / that the martyrs lives might be red in the church. But besides the evil success that those decrees had (under pretence whereof the popish legend / and Gregory's homilies. &c. crept in) that use and custom was controlled by other councils / as may appear by the council of Colen / albeit otherwise popish. And truly if there were 2nothing else but this consideration / that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs lives into the church / and of the homilies of ancient writers / hath not only by this means jostled with the Bible / but also thrust it clean out of the church / or into a corner where it was not read nor seen / it ought to teach all men to beware of placing any writing or work of men in the church of God / be they never so well learned / as long as the world should endure.
Bucers authoritye / I haue shewed before how it ought to be wayghed / & heere also it is suspitious: for that it is sayd that hys aduise was / when the lord should blesse the realme wyth moe learned preachers / that then order should be taken to make more homilyes / whych should be red in the church vnto the people: As if M. Bucer dyd not know / that there were then learned preachers enough in the realme / whych were able to make homilies / so many as the volume of them myght easely haue exceeded the volume of the Byble / if the multytude
