A67927:6050
Acts and monuments of matters most special and memorable, happening in the Church. [vol. 2, part 2] with an universal history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitive age to these latter times of ours, with the bloody times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions against the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperors, as now lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realm of England and Scotland. Newly revised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time again published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the help of Christ our Lord) John Fox, which desireth thee good reader to help him with thy prayer.Actes and monuments of matters most speciall and memorable, happenyng in the Church. [vol. 2, part 2] with an vniuersall history of the same, wherein is set forth at large the whole race and course of the Church, from the primitiue age to these latter tymes of ours, with the bloudy times, horrible troubles, and great persecutions agaynst the true martyrs of Christ, sought and wrought as well by heathen emperours, as nowe lately practised by Romish prelates, especially in this realme of England and Scotland. Newly reuised and recognised, partly also augmented, and now the fourth time agayne published and recommended to the studious reader, by the author (through the helpe of Christ our Lord) Iohn Foxe, which desireth thee good reader to helpe him with thy prayer.
London: printed by John Daye, 1583London: printed by Iohn Daye, 1583
No title page in the transcription: set from the catalogue record.
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
Wood. My saying was, that they that believe not,1 shall be damned, and be damned already. But I dare not say, for all the goods under heaven, that all they that receive no material baptism by the water, shall be damned, as you have said: yet I would you should not gather of these words, that I deny Baptism, as you were about to lay to my charge, or ever I had half told my tale. But I would not have you, nor no man so rash in judgement, to condemn the thing that they are not able to prove by the word, & to make it seem to the simple, that the outward washing of the water were the cause of faith.
Wood. My saying was, that they that beleue not,1 shall be damned, and be dāned already. But I dare not say, for all the goods vnder heauen, that all they that receiue no materiall baptisme by the water, shall be damned, as you haue sayd: yet I would you should not gather of these wordes, that I denye Baptisme, as you were aboute to laye to my charge, or euer I had halfe told my tale. But I would not haue you, nor no man so rash in iudgement, to cōdemn the thing yt they are not able to proue by the worde, & to make it seme to the simple, that the outward washing of the water were the cause of fayth.
Langd. Why, is it not so? will you deny it? Howe say you? Will you deny it? I say, the child hath no faith before it is baptised: and therefore the baptising bringeth the faith. How say you to it? Make me a plain answer to this question.
Langd. Why, is it not so? will you denye it? Howe say you? Will you denye it? I say, the childe hath no fayth before it is baptised: and therefore the baptising bringeth the fayth. How say you to it? Make me a playne answere to this question.
Wood. Now I perceive you go about nothing else, but to take vantage of my words. But by Gods help, I will answer you so,1 that you shall well see your sayings untrue. And yet I will not speak mine own words, but the words of the holy Ghost, out of the mouth of the prophets and Apostles: and then ask them whether they will deny it. You said, that faith cometh by Baptism, had by the use of material water.2 I must be so bold to ask you where Jacob was baptised before he had faith. S. Paul saith in the ninth chapter to the Romans: Or ever the children were borne, or ever they had done either good or bad, that the purpose of God which is by election, might stand, not by the reason of works, but by the grace of the caller, the elder shall serve the younger. Jacob I have loved, and Esau I hated. How think you, had this child faith or ever he were borne, or no? answer to this, if you can.
Wood. Nowe I perceiue you goe about nothing els, but to take vauntage of my wordes. But by Gods helpe, I will aunswere you so,1 that you shall well see your sayings vntrue. And yet I will not speak mine owne wordes, but the wordes of the holy Ghost, out of the mouth of the prophets and Apostles: and then aske them whether they wil deny it. You sayd, that fayth commeth by Baptisme, had by the vse of material water.2 I must be so bold to aske you where Iacob was baptised before he had fayth. S. Paule sayth in the ninth chapter to the Romanes: Or euer the childrē were borne, or euer they had done eyther good or bad, that the purpose of God which is by election, might stand, not by the reason of workes, but by the grace of the caller, the elder shall serue the younger. Iacob I haue loued, and Esau I hated. How think you, had this childe fayth or euer he were borne, or no? answere to this, if you can.
Lang. What, you speak of the old Law, Jacob was not christened, but circumcised. I speak of Baptism and you are gone from baptising to the time of Circumcision: answer me to the baptising. And me think by your talk, you deny original sin and free will,1 by the words that you brought in of S. Paul. For if children can be saved without baptism, then it must needs follow, that children have no original sin, the which is put away in the baptising. But I think you know not what original sin is, nor free will neither ⟨p. 1995⟩me think by your talk.
Lang. What, you speake of the olde Lawe, Iacob was not christened, but circumcised. I speake of Baptisme and you are gone from baptising to the time of Circumcision: answere me to the baptising. And me thinke by your talk, you deny originall sinne and free will,1 by the wordes that you brought in of S. Paule. For if children can bee saued without baptisme, then it must needes follow, that children haue no originall sinne, the which is put away in the baptising. But I thinke you know not what originall sinne is, nor free will neyther ⟨p. 1995⟩me thinke by your talke.
Wood. Yes, I praise God (I think) I can tell them all better then you can, me think even by your words. First I pray you what free will hath man to do good of himself? Tell me this first, & then I will answer to all your other questions that you have objected against me.
Wood. Yes, I prayse God (I thinke) I can tell them all better then you can, me thinke euē by your words. First I pray you what free will hath man to doe good of himselfe? Tell me this first, & then I will answere to all your other questions that you haue obiected agaynst me.
Wood. I pray you how prove you that?
Wood. I pray you how proue you that?
Lang. Thus I prove it, that as sin entered into the world, & by the means of one that sinned, all men became sinners, the which was by Adam, so by the obedience of man,1 righteousness came upon all men that had sinned, & set them as free as they were before their fall, the which was by Jesus Christ. Rom. v.
Lang. Thus I prooue it, that as sinne entred into the world, & by the meanes of one that sinned, all men became sinners, the whiche was by Adam, so by the obedience of man,1 righteousnesse came vpon all men that had sinned, & sette them as free as they were before theyr fall, the whiche was by Iesus Christ. Rom. v.
Wood. Oh Lord, what an overthrow have you given your self here in original sin, and yet can not see it? For in proving that we have free will, you have denied quite original sin. For here you have declared that we be set as free by the death of Christ, as Adam was before his fall, & I am sure Adam had no original sin before his fall. If we be as free now as he was then, I marvel wherefore Paul complained thrice to God, to take away the sting of it, God making him answer, and saying: My grace is sufficient for thee. These words with divers other, approveth original sin in us: but not that it shall hurt Gods elect people, but that his grace is sufficient for all his.1 But you say in one place, it is not without baptism: and in an other place you put it away quite by the death of Christ: and in very deed you have spoken truer in the matter than you be aware of. For all that believe in Christ, are baptised in the blood of Christ that he shed on the Cross, & in the water that he sweat for pain & putting away of our sins at his death. And yet I say with David in the 51. Psalm: In sin was I borne, and in sin hath my mother conceived me: but in no such sin that shall be imputed, because I am borne of God by faith, as Saint John saith. Therefore I am blessed,2 as saith the Prophet: Because the Lord imputeth not my sin, and not because I have no sin: but because God hath not imputed my sins. Not of our own deserving, but of his free mercy he hath saved us. Where is now your free will become that you spake of?3 If we have free will, then our salvation cometh of our own self, & not of God: the which is a great blasphemy against God and his word. 4For Saint James saith: Every good gift, and every perfect gift cometh from above, from the father of light, with whom is no variableness, neither is he changed into darkness. Of his own will he begat us. For the wind bloweth where it lusteth, and we hear the sound thereof, as saith S. John: But we cannot tell from whence it cometh, 5neither whether it goeth: Even so is it with every one that is borne of God. For S. Paul saith: It is God that worketh in us the will and also the deed,
me think all the rest of our own will is little worth,1 or nought at all, unless it be to wickedness. So me think here be places enough to prove that a man hath no free will to do good of himself: with a hundred places moe, that I could recite if time did serve. And as for original sin, I think I have declared my mind therein, how it remaineth in man: which you can not deny, unless you deny the word of God. Now, if you will suffer me, I will prove my saying of Jacob and Esau, that I brought in, to prove that faith was before baptism, and you refused it, because (you said) Jacob was not baptised.2 If you will give me leave, you shall see what I can say therein: for me think you think my talk long. This I said, because I saw he was sore offended at my sayings.
me thinke all the reste of our owne will is little worthe,1 or nought at all, vnles it be to wickednes. So me think here be places enough to proue that a man hath no free will to doe good of himselfe: with a hundred places moe, that I could recite if time did serue. And as for originall sinne, I thinke I haue declared my mind therin, how it remaineth in man: whiche you can not denye, vnlesse you deny the word of God. Now, if you will suffer me, I will proue my saying of Iacob and Esau, that I brought in, to proue that faith was before baptisme, and you refused it, because (you sayd) Iacob was not baptised.2 If you will geue me leaue, you shall see what I can say therin: for me think you think my talke long. This I sayd, because I saw he was sore offended at my sayinges.
Lang. Say what you can, For it availeth me to say nothing to you.1 For I was desired to send for you, to teach you, and there will no words of mine take place in you: but you go about to reprove me. Say what you will for me.
Lang. Saye what you canne, For it auayleth me to saye nothing to you.1 For I was desired to sende for you, to teache you, and there will no wordes of mine take place in you: but you goe about to reproue me. Saye what you will for me.
Wood. I take not upon me to teach you, but to answer to such things as you lay unto my charge: and I speak not mine own mind, but the mind of the holy Ghost, written by the Prophets and Apostles. Will you give me leave to answer briefly in that matter, that you may report to other what I hold? And he said, he was contented. But I think it was for nothing, but to have caught vantage of my words.
Wood. I take not vpon me to teach you, but to aunswere to such thinges as you lay vnto my charge: and I speake not mine owne minde, but the minde of the holy Ghoste, written by the Prophetes and Apostles. Wyll you geue me leaue to aunswere briefly in that matter, that you may report to other what I holde? And he sayd, he was contē ted. But I thinke it was for nothing, but to haue caughte vauntage of my wordes.
Wood. 1First, if you be remembered, you said, that if my child had dyed without baptism, if I had been the cause that it had not been baptised, the child should have been damned, and I too. How say you?
Wood. 1First, if you be remembred, you said, that if my child had dyed without baptisme, if I had bene the cause that it had not bene baptised, the child should haue bene damned, and I too. How say you?
Lang. Yea that you should.
Wood. That is most untrue. For the Prophet sayeth: The father shall not bear the child's offences, nor the child the fathers offences: but the soul that sinneth shall dye. 1What could the child have done withal, if it had died without baptism? the child could not do withal. How say you unto this? And I am sure: that which I brought in in the old Law, to prove that faith is before baptism, is not disagreeable unto the word. For Circumcision was a figure of baptism. And that I may bring to prove baptism by, as well as S. Peter did: for he brought in Noes flood,2 which was a long time before Jacob & Esau, to prove baptism, saying: While the Ark was a preparing, 3wherein few (that is to say) eight souls were saved by water, like as Baptism also now saveth us, not in putting away of the filth of the flesh, but there is • good conscience consenting to God. Here Peter proveth, that the water had not saved Noah and the other seven, no more then it saved all the rest, if it had not been for their faith, which faith now saveth us: not in putting away of the filthy sin of the flesh, by the washing of the water, but by a good conscience consenting unto God. But you said: If they be baptised with the water, if they dye before they come to years of discretion, they be all saved: the which S. Peter is clean against, unless you grant that children have faith before they be baptised. Now I ask you what consent of conscience the children have, being infants. For you say they believe not, before they be Baptised: Ergo, then they consent not to be Baptised, because they believe not. And by this it followeth that none shall be saved, although they be baptised. I would fain see how you can answer to this.
Wood. That is moste vntrue. For the Prophete sayeth: The father shall not beare the childes offences, nor the childe the fathers offences: but the soule that sinneth shall dye. 1What could the child haue done withal, if it had died without baptism? the childe coulde not do withall. How say you vnto this? And I am sure: that which I brought in in the olde Law, to proue that fayth is before baptisme, is not disagreeable vnto the word. For Circūcision was a figure of baptisme. And that I may bring to proue baptisme by, as wel as S. Peter did: for he brought in Noes sloude,
Lang. You are the most perverse man that ever I knew. You wot not what you say. The children are baptised in their *Godfathers and Godmothers faith, and that is the good conscience that S. Peter speaketh of: and the Christening is the keeping of the law, that S. Paul speaketh of, saying: neither is Circumcision any thing worth, nor uncircumcision any thing worth, but keeping of the law is altogether. Like as the Circumcision was the keeping of the old law, so is baptism the keeping of the new law.
Lang. You are the most peruerse man that euer I knewe. You wote not what you say. The children are baptised in theyr *Godfathers and Godmothers fayth, and that is the good conscience that S. Peter speaketh of: and the Christening is the keeping of the law, that S. Paule speaketh of, saying: neither is Circumcision any thing worth, nor vncircūcision any thing worth, but keping of the lawe is altogether. Like as the Circumcision was the keping of the old law, so is baptisme the keeping of the new law.
Wood. Oh Lorde, what an ouerthrowe haue you geuen your selfe here in originall sinne, and yet can not see it? For in prouing that we haue free wil, you haue denied quite original sinne. For here you haue declared that we be set as free by the death of Christ, as Adam was before his fall, & I am sure Adam had no originall sinne before his fall. If we be as free nowe as he was then, I maruell wherefore Paul complayned thrise to God, to take away the sting of it, God making him aunswere, and saying: My grace is sufficient for thee. These wordes with diuers other, approueth originall sinne in vs: but not that it shall hurt Gods electe people, but that his grace is sufficient for all his.1 But you saye in one place, it is not without baptisme: and in an other place you put it away quite by the death of Christ: and in verye deed you haue spokē truer in the matter thē you be aware of. For all that beleue in Christ, are baptised in the bloude of Christ that he shed on the Crosse, & in the water that he swet for payne & putting away of our sinnes at his death. And yet I say with Dauid in the 51. Psalme: In sinne was I borne, and in sinne hath my mother conceiued me: but in no suche sinne that shall bee imputed, because I am borne of God by fayth, as Sayncte Iohn sayth. Therefore I am blessed,2 as sayth the Prophet: Because the Lorde imputeth not my sinne, and not because I haue no sinne: but because God hath not imputed my sinnes. Not of our owne deseruing, but of his free mercy he hath saued vs. Where is now your free will become that you spake of?3 If we haue free will, then our saluation commeth of our owne selfe, & not of God: the which is a great blasphemy agaynst God and his word. 4For Saynt Iames sayth: Euery good gift, and euery perfect gift commeth from aboue, from the father of light, with whō is no variablenes, neither is he chaunged into darcknesse. Of his owne will he begate vs. For the winde bloweth where it lusteth, and we heare the soūd therof, as sayth S. Iohn: But we cannot tell from whence it commeth, 5neither whether it goeth: Euen so is it with euery one that is borne of God. For S. Paule sayth: It is God that woorketh in vs the will and also the deed, 6euen of good will. Seing then that euery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue, & lighteth vpon whom it pleaseth God, and that he worketh in vs both the will and the deede:
