A68831:1458
The whole works of W. Tyndall, John Frith, and Doct. Barnes, three worthy martyrs, and principal teachers of this Church of England collected and compiled in one tome together, being before scattered, [and] now in print here exhibited to the Church. To the praise of God, and profit of all good Christian readers.The vvhole workes of W. Tyndall, Iohn Frith, and Doct. Barnes, three worthy martyrs, and principall teachers of this Churche of England collected and compiled in one tome togither, beyng before scattered, [and] now in print here exhibited to the Church. To the prayse of God, and profite of all good Christian readers.
London: printed by John Daye, 1573London: printed by Iohn Daye, 1573
Modern spelling is a reading aid: the words are the author’s, only the spelling is modernized. Original shows the page as printed, with the transcription marks.
And when M. More saith, that this word Church is known well enough. I report me unto the consciences of all the land, whether he say truth or other wise, or whether the lay people understand by Church the whole multitude of all that profess Christ, or the juggling spirits only. And when he saith that congregation is a more general 1term, if it were, it hurteth not. For the circumstance doth ever tell what congregation is meant. Nevertheless yet saith he not the truth. For wheresoever I may say a congregation, there may I say a Church also, as the Church of the devil, the Church of Satan, the Church of wretches, yt Church of wicked men, the Church of liars and a Church of Turks thereto.
And when M. More sayth, that this word Church is knowen wel inough. I report me vnto the consciēces of all the land, whether he say truth or other wise, or whether the lay people vnderstand by Church the whole multitude of all that professe Christ, or the iugglyng spirites onely. And whē he saith that congregation is a more generall 1terme, if it were, it hurteth not. For the circumstance doth euer tell what cō gregation is ment. Neuerthelesse yet sayth he not the truth. For whersoeuer I may say a congregation, there may I say a Church also, as the Church of the deuill, the Church of Sathan, the Church of wretches, yt Church of wickedmen, the Churche of lyers and a Church of Turkes therto.
For M. More must grant (if he will have Ecclesia translated throughout all the new Testament by this word Church) that Church is as common as Ecclesia. Now is Ecclesia a Greek 1word and was in use before the time of the Apostles and taken for a congregation among the heathen, where was no congregation of God or of Christ. And also Lucas him self useth Ecclesia for a Church or congregation of heathen people thrice in one Chapter, even in the xix. of the Acts, where Demetrius the goldsmith or silversmith had gathered 2a company against Paul for preaching against Images.
For M. More must graunt (if he will haue Ecclesia translated throughout all the new Testament by this woorde Church) that Church is as commō as Ecclesia. Now is Ecclesia a Greeke 1word and was in vse before the tyme of the Apostles and taken for a cōgregation among the heathē, where was no congregation of God or of Christ. And also Lucas him selfe vseth Ecclesia for a Church or congregation of heathen people thrise in one Chapter, euē in the xix. of the Actes, where Demetrius the goldsmith or siluersmith had gathered 2a company agaynst Paule for preachyng agaynst Images.
Howbeit M. More hath so long used▪ ⟨p. 251⟩his figures of Poetry, that (I suppose) 1when he erreth most, he now by the reason o• a long custom, believeth himself, that he saith most true. Or else (as the wise people which when they dance naked in nets believe that no man seeth them) even so M. More thinketh that his errors be so subtly couched that no man can espy them. So blind he counteth all other men in comparison of his great understanding. But charitably I exhort him in Christ to take heed, for though Judas were wilier then his fellows to get lucre, yet 2he proved not most wise at yt last end. Neither though Balaam the false Prophet 3had a clear sight to bring y• curse of God upon the children of Israel for honours sake, yet his covetousness did so blind his prophecy, that he could not see his own end. Let therefore M. 4More and his company awake be times ere ever their sin be ripe, lest the voice of their wickedness asceno• up and awake God out of his sleep, to look upon them and to how his ears unto their cursed blasphemies against the open truth, and to send his harvest men and mowers of vengeance to reap it.
Howbeit M. More hath so long vsed▪ ⟨p. 251⟩his figures of Poetry, that (I suppose) 1whē he erreth most, he now by the reason o• a long custome, beleueth himself, that he sayth most true. Or els (as the wise people which when they daunce naked in nettes beleue that no man seeth them) euen so M. More thinketh that his errours be so subtilly couched that no man can espy them. So blinde he counteth all other men in comparison of his great vnderstandyng. But charitably I exhorte him in Christ to take hede, for though Iudas were wilier then his felowes to get lucre, yet
But how happeth it that M. More hath not contended in likewise against his darling Erasmus all this long 1while? Doth not he change this word Ecclesia into congregation and that not seldom in the new Testament? peradventure he oweth him favour because he made Moria in his house. Which book if it were in English, then should every man see, how that he then was far otherwise minded then he now writeth. But verily I think that as Judas betrayed not Christ for any love that he had unto the high Priests, Scribes and Pharisees, but only to come by that wherefore he thirsted: even so M. More (as there are tokens evident) 2wrote not these books for any affection that he bare unto the spiritualty or unto the opinions which he so barely defendeth, but to obtain only that which he was an hungered for: I pray God that he eat not to hastily lest he be choked at the latter end, but that he repent and resist not the spirit of God which openeth light unto the world.
But how happeth it that M. More hath not contended in likewise against hys derelyng Erasmus all this longe 1while? Doth not he chaūge this word Ecclesia into congregatiō and that not seldome in the new Testamēt? peraduenture he oweth him fauour because he made Moria in hys house. Whiche booke if it were in English, thē should euery man see, how that he then was farre otherwise mynded then he now writeth. But verely I thinke that as Iudas betrayd not Christ for any loue that he had vnto the hyghe Priestes, Scribes and Phariseis, but onely to come by that wherfore he thirsted: euē so M. More (as there are tokens euidēt) 2wrote not these bookes for any affectiō that he bare vnto the spiritualty or vnto the opinions which he so barely defēdeth, but to obtaine onely that which he was an hungred for: I pray God that he eate not to hastly lest he be chokeo at the latter end, but that he repēt and resist not the spirite of God which openeth light vnto the worlde.
AN other thing which he rebuketh, is, that I interpret this Greek word Presbiteros by this word Senior. 1Of a truth Senior is no very good English, though Senior and Junior be used in the universities: but there came no better in my mind at that time. Howbeit I spied my fault since, long ere M. More told it me, and have • dead it in all the works which I since made, and call it an Elder. And in that he maketh here•ie of it, to call 2Presbiteros an Elder, he condemneth their own old Latin text of heresy also, which they use yet daily my• •ch and have used, I suppose, this, I suppose, this run hum dread years. For that text doth[…]an elder likewise. In the. 1. Pet. 5. •s 3standeth it in the Latin text. Se•ores qui in vobis sunt, obsecro ego con• pascite qui in vobis est gregem Chri• […]elders that are among you I[…]which am an elder also, that ye seed flock of Christ, which is among[…]There is Presbyteros calle• […]And in that he saith feed Chris• he meaneth even the Minister chosen to teach the people & to[…]them in Gods word & no •ay[…]And in the 2. Epistle of Joh• […] 4text, Senior electae Dominae & […] The elder unto the elect Lady[…]her children. And in the[…]John. Senior Ga•o dilecto. […] 5unto the beloved Gai•s. In these[…]pistles Presbyteros is calle an[…]And in the xx. of the Acts, y text s
And when he layeth Timothy unto my charge, how he was young, then he ⟨p. 252⟩we•eth that he hath wo••e his golden spu•s: But I would pray him to show me where he readeth that Paul calleth him Presbyteros, Priest or Elder. I […] not then call him Episcopus properly. For those over•ears which 1we now call Bishops after the Greek word, we• alway biding in one place to[…]the congregation there. N•w was T•the an Apostle. And Paul also writeth that he came shortly again. well, will he say, it cometh yet all to one. For if it be cometh the lower Minister to be of a sad and dis• much more it becometh the higher. It is •h. But ij. things are without law, God and necessity. If 2God to show his power shall shed out his grace more upon youth then upon age at a […], who shall let him? we•ē be no […] v• to rule or to preach 3(for both are forbidden them) yet hath God endowed them with his spirit at sundry times and showed his power and goodness upon them and wrought wonderful things by them, because 4he would not have them •d. We ••ad that women have judged all Israel and have been great propheti•ies and have done mighty deeds. Yea and if stones be true, women have preached sense the opening of yt new Testament.
Do not our women now Christen and minister the Sacrament of Baptism in time of need? Might they not by as good reason preach also, if necessity required? […] a woman were driven into some Island, where Christ was never preached, might she there not preach him, it she had the g•t thereto? Might she not also Baptise? And why might she not, by the same reason minister the Sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, and teach them how to chose •rs & ministers? O poor women, how despite ye them? The vi• the better welcome unto you. An whore had ye lever than an honest wife. If only shaven and anointed may do these things, then Christ did them not nor any of his Apostles, nor any man in long time after. For they used no such ceremonies.
Do not our w•men now Christen and minister the Sacrament of Baptisme in tyme of nede? Might they not by as good reason preach also, if necessitie required? 〈…〉 a woman were driuē into some Iland, where Christ was neuer preached, might she there not preach him, it she had the g•t thereto? Might she not also Baptise? And why might she not, by the same reason minister the Sacrament of the body and bloud of Christ, and teach them how to chose •rs & ministers? O poore wemen, how despite ye them? The vi• the better welcome vnto you. An whore had ye leuer thē an honest wife. If onely shauen and annoynted may do these thinges, then Christ dyd them not nor any of his Apostles, nor any man in long tyme after. For they vsed no such ceremonies.
Notwithstanding, though God be under no law, and necessity lawless: 1yet be we under a law, and ought to prefer the men before the women, & age before youth, as •he as we can. For it is against the law of nature that young men should rule the elder, and as uncomely as that women should rule the men, but when need requireth. And therefore if Paul had had other shift, and a man of age as mete for 2the room, he would not have put Timothy in the office, he should no doubt have been kept back until a fuller age, and have learned in the mean time in silence. And whatsoever thou be that readest this, I exhort thee in our lord, that thou read both yt epis•s of Paul to Timothy, that thou mayst see how diligently (as a mother careth for her child if it be in peril) Paul writeth unto Timothy to instruct him, to teach him, to exhort, to courage him, to sh••e him up, to be wise, sober, diligent, circumspect, sad, humble and meek, saying▪ these I write that thou mayest 3know how to behave thy self in the house of God, which is the church or congregation. A•oy•• •ustes of yo•h, beware of ungodly fables & old wives tales, & avoid the company of men of corrupt minds, which wast their brains about wrangling questions. Let no man despise thy•e youth. As who should say, youth is a despised thing of it self, whereunto men give none obedience or reverence naturally. See therefore that thy ve••ue exceed, 4to recompense thy lack of age, and that thou so behave thy self that no fault be found with thee. And again, rebuke not an Elder sharply, but exhort him as thy father, and young men as thy brethren, and the elder women as thy mothers, and yt young women as thy sisters, and such like in every chapter. Adm none accusation against an Elder under less then two witnesses. And Paul chargeth him in the sight of God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ, and of his elect Angels, to do nothing rashly or of affection. And shortly whereunto youth is most prove and ready to fall, thereof warneth he him with all diligence, even almost or altogether half a osen times of some one thing. And finally as a man would
And when he affirmeth that I say, how that the oiling and shaving is no 1part of the Priesthood. That improne•h he not, nor can do. And therefore I say i• yet. And when he hath insearched the most that he can, this is all that he can say against me, that of an hundred there be not x. that have the properties ⟨p. 253⟩which Paul requireth to be in them. Wherefore if oiling and shaving be no part of their Priesthood, then evermore of a thousand ix. hundred at the lest should be no Priests at all. And quoth your friend would confirm it with an oath and swear deeply, that it would follow and that it must needs so be. Which argument yet, if there were no other shift I would solve after an Oxford fashion, with concedo consequentiam & consequens. And I say moreover that their anointing is but a ceremony borrowed of the Jews, though they have somewhat altered the manner, and their shaving borrowed of the heathen Priests, and that they be no 2more of their priesthood, then the oil, salt, spittle, •aper and chrisom cloth of the substance of baptism. Which things no doubt, because they be of their con•uring, they would have preached of necessity unto the salvation of the child, except necessity had driven them unto the contrary.
And when he affirmeth that I say, how that the oyling and shauing is no 1part of the Priesthode. That improne•h he not, nor can do. And therfore I say i• yet. And when he hath insearched the •most that he cā, this is all that he can say agaynst me, that of an hundred there be not x. that haue the properties ⟨p. 253⟩which Paule requireth to be in them. Wherfore if oyling and shauyng be no part of their Priesthode, then euermore of a thousand ix. hundred at the lest should be no Priests at all. And quoth your frend would confirme it with an oth and sweare depely, that it would folow and yt it must nedes so be. Which argument yet, if there were no other shift I would solue after an Oxford fashion, with concedo consequentiam & consequens. And I say moreouer that their annoynting is but a ceremonie borowed of ye Iewes, though they haue somewhat altered the maner, and their shauing borowed of the heathen Priestes, and that they be no
And seeing that the oil is not of necessity, let M. More tell me what more virtue is in the oil of confirmation, in as much as the bishop sacreth the one as well as the other: yea and let him tell the reason why there should be 1more virtue in the oil wherewith yt Bishop anointeth his Priests. Let him tell you from whence the oil cometh, how it is made, and why he selleth it to the curates wherewith they anoint the sick, or whether this be of less virtue then the other.
And seing that the oyle is not of necessitie, let M. More tell me what more vertue is in the oyle of confirmatiō, in as much as the bishop sacreth the one as well as the other: yea and let hym tell the reason why there shoulde be 1more •ertue in the oyle wherewith yt Byshop annointeth his Priestes. Let him tell you from whence the oyle cō meth, how it is made, and why he selleth it to the curates wherewyth they annointe the sicke, or whether this be of lesse vertue then the other.
And finally, why used not the Apostles 1this greek word [Greek or Hebrew], or the interpreter this Latin word Sacerdos, but alway this word Presbyteros and Senior, by which was at that time nothing signified but an Elder? And it 2was no doubt taken of the custom of the Hebrews, where the officers were ever elderly men as nature requireth. As it appeareth in the old testament and also in the new. The Scribes, Pharisees, and the elders of the people saith the text, which were the officers and rulers, so called by the reason of their age.
And finally, why vsed not the Apostles 1this greke worde 〈non-Latin alphabet〉, or the interpreter this Latin woorde Sacerdos, but alway this worde Presbyteros and Senior, by which was at that time nothing signified but an Elder? And it 2was no doubt taken of the custome of the Hebrues, where the officers were euer elderly men as nature requireth. As it appeareth in the olde testament and also in the new. The Scribes, Pharises, and the elders of the people sayth the text, which were the officers and rulers, so called by the reason of their age.
HE rebuketh me also that I translate 1this greek word [Greek or Hebrew] into love, and not rather into charity, so holy & so known a term. Verily charity is no known English, in that sense which agape requireth. For when we say, give your alms in the worship of God and sweet saint charity, and when the father teacheth his son to say blessing father for saint charity, what mean they? In good faith they wot not. Moreover when we say, God help you, I have done my charity for this day, do we not take it for a•s? And the man is ever childing and out 2of charity, and I beshrew him saving my charity, there we take it for patience. And when I say a charitable man, it is taken for merciful. And though mercifulness be a good love, or rather spring of a good love, yet is not every good love mercifulness. As when a woman loveth her husband godly, or a man his wife or his friend that is in none adversity, it is not alway mercifulness. Also we say not this man 3hath a great charity to god, but a great love. Wherefore I must have used this general term love, in spite of mine hart oftentimes. And agape & charitas were words used among the Hethe• ere Christ came, and signified therefore more then a godly love. And we may say well enough and have heard it spoken that the Turks be charitable one to an other among themselves, & some of them unto the christen to. Besides all this agape is common unto all loves.
HE rebuketh me also that I trāslate 1thys greke worde 〈non-Latin alphabet〉 into loue, and not rather into charitie, so holy & so knowen a terme. Ʋerely charitie is no knowen Englishe, in that sence which agape requireth. For when we say, geue your almes in the worship of God and sweete saint charitie, and when the father teacheth his sonne to say blessing father for saint charitie, what meane they? In good fayth they wot not. Moreouer whē we say, God helpe you, I haue done my charitie for this day, do we not take it for a•s? And the man is euer childing and out
And when M. More saith every love 1is not charity, no more is every Apostle Christs Apostle, nor every Angel Gods Angel, nor every hope christen hope, nor every saith or belief Christs belief, and so by an hundred thousand words. So that if I should alway use but a word that were no more general then the word I interpret, I should interpret nothing at all. But the matter it self and the circumstances do declare what love, what hope, and what faith is spoken of. And finally I say not charity God, or charity your neighbour, but jove God and love your neighbour, yea & though we say a man ought to love his neighbours wife & his daughter, a Christen man doth understand that he is commanded to defile his neighbours wife or his daughter.
And when M. More saith euery loue 1is not charitie, no more is euery Apostle Christes Apostle, nor euery Angell Gods Angell, nor euery hope christen hope, nor euery sayth or beliefe Christes beleife, and so by an hūdred thousand wordes. So that if I should alway vse but a worde yt were no more generall then the worde I enterprete, I should enterprete nothing at all. But the matter it selfe and the circumstaunces do declare what loue, what hope, and what fayth is spokē of. And finally I say not charitie God, or charitie your neighbour, but ioue God and loue your neighbour, ye & though we say a man ought to loue his neighbours wife & his daughter, a Christen man doth vnderstand that he is commaūded to defile his neighbours wife or his daughter.
AN other thyng which he rebuketh, is, that I interprete this Greeke worde Presbiteros by this worde Senior. 1Of a truth Senior is no very good Englishe, though Senior and Iuniot be vsed in the vniuersities: but there came no better in my mynde at that tyme. Howbeit I spied my fault since, long yer M. More tolde it me, and haue • ded it in all the woorkes which I sens made, and call it an Elder. And in that he maketh here•ie of it, to call 2Presbiteros an Elder, he condemneth their owne old Latin text of heresie also, which they vse yet dayly my• •ch and haue vsed, I suppose, this, I suppose, this run hū dred yeares. For that text doth〈…〉an elder likewise. In the. 1. Pet. 5. •s 3standeth it in ye Latin text. Se•ores qui in vobis sunt, obsecro ego con• pascite qui in vobis est gregem Chri• 〈…〉elders that are among you I〈…〉which am an elder also, that ye sed• flocke of Christ, which is among〈…〉There is Presbyteros calle• 〈…〉And in yt he sayth fede Chris• he meaneth euen the Ministe• chosen to teach the people & to〈…〉them in Gods word & no •ay〈…〉And in the 2. Ep•st•e of Ioh• 〈…〉 4text, Senior electae Dominae & 〈…〉 The elder vnto the ele•t Lady〈…〉her children. And in the〈…〉Iohn. Senior Ga•o dilecto. 〈…〉 5vnto the beloued Gai•s. In these〈…〉pistles Presbyteros is calle• an〈…〉And in the xx. of the Actes, y• text s• 6Paule sent for maiores natu Eccle• 〈…〉elders in byrth of the congregation or Church, and sayd vnto them, take〈…〉vnto your selues & vnto y• who•e 〈…〉, ouer which the holy ghos• hath〈…〉 7you Episcopos ad regendum Eccle• Dei, Byshops ouer•ca•s to〈…〉the Church of God. There is • teros called an Elder in byrth〈…〉same immediately called a〈…〉ouersear, to declare what p• ment. Hereof ye see that I haue〈…〉more erred then their owne text〈…〉they haue vsed sence the scripture wa• first in the Latin •oung, and that their owne text vnderstandeth by Presby•eros 8nothyng saue an Elder. And they were called Elders, because of their age, grauitie & sadnesse, as thou may•t see by the text: and Byshops or ouersears by the reasō of their offices. And all that were called Elders (or Priests if they so wil) were called Bishops also, though they haue diuided yt names now, which thing thou mayst euidently see by the first Chapter of Titus. And Actes xx. and other places mo.
Notwithstanding, though God be vnder no lawe, and necessitie lawlesse: 1yet be we vnder a lawe, and ought to preferre the men before the women, & age before youth, as •he as we cā. For it is agaynst the lawe of nature that young men should rule the elder, and as vncomely as that women shoul•e rule the men, but when neede requireth. And therfore if Paule had had other shift, and a man of age as mete for 2the roome, he would not haue put Timothy in the office, he should no doubt haue bene kept backe vntil a fulier age, and haue learned in the meane time in silence. And whatsoeuer thou be that reade•t this, I exhort thee in our lord, that thou read both yt epis•s of Paule to Timothy, that thou mayst see how diligently (as a mother careth for her childe if it be in perill) Paule writeth vnto Timothy to instruct him, to teach hym, to exhort, to corage hym, to sh••e him vp, to be wise, sober, diligent, circumspect, sad, humble and me•ke, saying▪ these I write that thou mayest 3know how to behaue thy selfe in the house of God, which is the church or congregation. A•oy•• •ustes of yo•h, beware of vngodly fables & old wiues tales, & auoyde the company of men of corrupt myndes, which wast theyr braynes about wrangling questions. Let no man dispise thy•e youth. As who shoulde say, youth is a dispised thyng of it selfe, whereunto men geue none obedience or reuerence naturally. See therefore that thy ve••ue exceede, 4to recompence thy lacke of age, and that thou so behaue thy self that no fault be founde with thee. And againe, rebuke not an Elder sharpely, but exhort him as thy father, and yongmen as thy brethren, and the elder women as thy mothers, and yt yoūg womē as thy sisters, and such like in euery chapter. Adm• none accusation agaynst an Elder vnder lesse then two witnesses. And Paule chargeth hym in the sight of God, and of the Lord Iesus Christ, and of his elect Angels, to do nothing rashely or of affection. And shortely whereunto youth is most proue and ready to fall, therof warneth he hym with all diligence, euen almost or altogether halfe a •osen times of some one thyng. And finally as a man woulde 5teach a childe that had •euer be•ore gone to schole, so tēderly & so carefully doth Paul teach him. It is an other thyng to teach the people, and to teach the preacher. Here Paule teacheth the preacher, young Timothy.
